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Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:02 pm

Night Strike wrote:Timmy, t-o-m DID get to finish his map (Madagascar) after he was banned. They're saying he can't start a new map. And it would harm the site because it would set a precedent for other banned people to want back into certain forums by running a tournament or still posting their ideas. Why doesn't everybody understand that a forum vacation affects ALL forums?? There have never been exceptions to this and the admins aren't going to start now.


In fact, this map was started before he was banned.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:26 pm

RjBeals wrote:
OliverFA wrote:You know? What I find funny is that I am being asked to continue the map...

Is like telling a kid that Santa Claus doesn't exist and later expecting him to enjoy Christmas...


I asked - because you're one of the few carto's with a good noggin.


I was not talking about you. I apologize if it seemed that I was complaining about you. And by the way, thanks for starting the thread. I was talking about Gimil and, unless he corrects me, about the full CC staff. They lock my thread without even warning me once. Then they contact me by PM with a lot of nice words which, I won't deny are very beautiful and nice, but that can be summarized as "We did that because we had to. You understand. Do you?". That is. Nice words but not real discussion. Not even a chance for me to explain myself. The only chance comes from this thread which, once again, I thank you for opening. If they have found about t-o-m involvement in this map is because neither he nor me have hidden it. Some images were linking directly to his imageshack account. Too much for someone that want to be secretive. Isn't it?

Maybe if they had investigated they would have realized that this map started before he was banned. So, when he got banned, I had the chance to kick him away, or stay with him. I don't know about site admins, but I have the principle not to kick away someone who has helped me and been kind to me. If I told him to go away, I could save my map, but that would say a lot of negative things about me as a person. No, he was the one that helped me with the graphics, and I only have reasons to be grateful to him.

RjBeals wrote: I would feel the same if I was in your shoes. So much time goes into a map development. That thread is a big part of your life. Then to visit one day and see it locked has got to be a "disappointment" - enough to make you angry.


Thanks for the understanding :-) fortunately, I think you are wrong about this. Of course, you are not wrong about the fact that I have put a lot of effort in the map. And you are not wrong when you say that, in addition to being disapointed, I am also a bit pissed. But you are wrong when you say this is a big part of my life ;-) Thanks God, I have a job that allows me to realize as a person and as a professional. Consequently, CC is just an entertainment for me. This means that I don't need Research & Conquer to feel well with myself. On the contrary, I will feel better with myself if I feel that I satayed faithful with my principles than if I feel that someone attacked me and I defended myself instead of surrendering. I put many hours in the map. Many of them were hours taken from sleep time. But I won't continue with the map if no real discussion is taken about it. And I say real discussion. CC has all the right to make up stupid rules in its own site. But I am in my own right to take my very limited free time and invest it in a project somewhere else where they will appreciate me instead of hurting me "because they have to".

RjBeals wrote:But you've got to flip the situation and see it from gimils side (and the staff). I have nothing against tom myself. In fact he always gave good feedback in my map threads. The simple fact is though he abused his forum rights by spamming other forums, not the foundry - and so his posting privileges were taken from him.


I think that it is extremely unfair to t-o-m to dissolve our association becuase he was banned. Hell, being banned is bad enough for me to add something else to this disaster. The map was started prior to that ban. The first drafts were very nice (and by the way, before knowing he is the one making the graphics everybody said they were nice graphics) and he didn't do anything bad to me or to R&C. It would be unfair to tell him to go.

Plus, lets face it. Some people say "oh look for someone else". Where is that someone else? The foundry is plenty of map ideas that don't get any artist and simply die. Go check it and you will see.

RjBeals wrote:Anyway - hopefully after the holidays you'll find a new cartos and continue development. You have a great idea. In fact, it's grand. It needs a better gfx artist anyway. You have a very complicated idea - and if the grx aren't there, you may lose people.

Thanks for the support, RjBeals, but I see it very difficult to happen.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:28 pm

lgoasklucyl wrote:
OliverFA wrote:
lgoasklucyl wrote:
OliverFA wrote:
So, if you play nice, you are punished. And if you cheat, you can easily shortcut the rules.


Yes sir, apparently flaming has more negative affects on the site than creating multies, point dumping, and other forms of blatant cheating .

I second your notion of CC enjoying shooting itself in the foot. T-O-M being allowed to do graphics work in photoshop does not negatively affect the site in any way, shape, or form. In fact, CC is punishing itself in disallowing such a great map-maker from doing what he does best. Nothing like hurting your community to stand on your high horse ;)


You know? The funny thing is that I really like this place. That is why I am more dissapointed than angry. Because I feel sorry for what they are doing for themselves. Fortunately this is just an entertainment for me. But for them it is supposed to way their way of living.


Then perhaps they shouldn't act to turn members away. Losing tom and insulting you is a pretty big hit to the map foundry.


Plus... they shouldn't act to turn members away and then act like if nothing had happened.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:33 pm

I know I've been away, and am just getting back into things here in the Foundry, but contributing to the website is a privilege. When someone breaks the rules of the website, that privilege is removed.


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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:35 pm

The Fuzzy Pengui wrote:Gimil and the other cartos make the best decisions in their eyes for the best interest of the foundry, and sometimes there are hiccups along the way and disagreements. I think he was probably in a lose/lose situation, both by leaving it open or by locking it.


He could have PMed me BEFORE locking the thread. He could have investigated and see the map was started BEFORE the ban. He could even have started discussion in the thread! But looks like mods here are worried about public disagreement (I don't care if I get punished for saying it) and this thread wouldn't even exist if RjBeals hadn't started it.

I am a understanding person. But that doesn't mean that someone can beat me for somehting I didn't do and go away like if nothing had happened.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:36 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:I know I've been away, and am just getting back into things here in the Foundry, but contributing to the website is a privilege. When someone breaks the rules of the website, that privilege is removed.


--Andy


And which rules did I break?
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:41 pm

Unfortunately, as pointed out, map developers cannot be banned members. Find another co-developer that is willing to help out, or shoulder the map's entirety on your own, like a number of other cartographers in the Foundry. :)


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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:43 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Unfortunately, as pointed out, map developers cannot be banned members. Find another co-developer that is willing to help out. :)


--Andy


And what happens if development had already started when they were banned? Why isn't it being discussed in the map thread? Why didn't I receive a warning? How will I find motivation to continue with this map?
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:45 pm

Oliver, I understand where you are coming from you---I've seen your sentiment before over the years in the Foundry. The best thing to do is turn the negative into a positive.


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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:50 pm

edbeard wrote:a lot of you are acting the same way tom would

Oliver, it's obviously normal to be upset at the situation but you were given a meaningful explanation when it was locked. Let's look at gimil's post.


No. I didn't get a meaningful explanation. For example, tell me. Why was it locked? t-o-m could not post in that thread. So why not discusse it there? They were preventing nothing by closing the thread. Except maybe if they didn't want any discussion at all to be public. And why not tell me before doing anything? Even if they were right, their unpolite way of acting tells not much about them.

After some investigation, I have reason to believe that this map has been worked on (mostly or in part) my t-o-m. The official verdict on banned members making maps is simply not aloud.

For now this thread has been locked, and if oliver wants details he is more than welcome to drop me a PM and I will discuss the matter with him.

Sorry for the inconvenience.


The investigation was to look at the letters "t-o-m" in some links. I bet they worked very hard! Again, I am being punished for playing nice. If I had wanted to fool CC, I would had ofuscated the link.

I wish some of you would think clearly for a minute.

I am thinking very clearly. They have offended me. I don't wan to work for the people who attacked me in such way. Thanks God my ego does not depend on this map. Oh yes, it would be nice to have it done and my name next to it, but I have other things to be proud of, so I don't need this map.

This is how a lot of you guys come off. You guys don't really care about right or wrong. You just care about getting to do what you want to do. And, anytime that is impeded you find ways to say it is wrong and unfair. That's not how life works.

On the contrary, we care about what is rigth or wrong. If laws were always black or white, they would be applied by machines. If we have PERSONS as judges/moderators is because they are supposed to be flexible and act acording to each situation. Were, looks like that's not the case.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:51 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:Oliver, I understand where you are coming from you---I've seen your sentiment before over the years in the Foundry. The best thing to do is turn the negative into a positive.


--Andy


I am very positive. I just want to be positive somewhere else where I am appreciated.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby Kotaro on Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:58 pm

All this time fighting could be used to find a new artist..
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:00 pm

Kotaro wrote:All this time fighting could be used to find a new artist..


I don't want a new artist. I want the thread about the map deleted.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby ZeakCytho on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:12 pm

OliverFA wrote:
Kotaro wrote:All this time fighting could be used to find a new artist..


I don't want a new artist. I want the thread about the map deleted.


I understand how you feel, but this is a golden map idea and it would be an incredible shame if you halt development because of this. I won't pretend it's a minor issue, but finding a new graphics person won't be terribly hard given such a popular map concept. I'd volunteer to do it myself if I weren't so busy with school and possibly the Central America map.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby RjBeals on Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:56 pm

Same with me. I already have too much on my plate to take on another project - but you may find someone. Don't delete the thread.

Also - I didn't mean it's a big part of you life in that you don't have a life. We all have lives. Gimil / Oak / Benn - they don't get paid to patrol. They have real jobs and real lives as well. It's all for free, and for the good of this site. We're all pretty normal I would guess. (err.. most of us).

But just take a deep breath and gather yourself. You think this is bad - you should ask Tisha what happened to her. She got all the way to Final Forge, then the foundry ganged her and told her she didn't deserve to be there. She pushed on forward and completed her map (Puget Sound) and now has a quenched map.

Keep your map Oliver - don't quit.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby Kotaro on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:53 am

OliverFA wrote:
I don't want a new artist. I want the thread about the map deleted.


Than delete it. Go to "edit" on the original post, delete everything in there, and type in "Closed". Not too hard. And if you don't like how the people incharge of this site operate things, the Logout button is right above that big "Game Menu" side panel.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby lgoasklucyl on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:01 am

Okay, as a new map-maker (I've submitted a map I worked long and hard on for the Central America competition! go look/vote if you haven't yet!!!) I have a question for you. If I (I'm not offering, merely presenting a hypothetical) were to pick up the graphics portion of the map, would I be banned for asking tom for advice on aspects of creating the map? Merely an outside-of-CC instant message graphics questions, as he has far more knowledge of photoshop and map making than myself?

If not, how is this different than allowing him to actually make the map changes himself?

If so, it's ludicrous to assume that moderators could ban an individual based on helpful advice supplied by a conversation that existed outside of the domain of their jurisdiction. I would not be posting his ideas on the forum, rather my own ideas that were assisted through the help of someone who knows more of a subject than myself.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby whitestazn88 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:08 am

so t-o-m was allowed to finish his madagascar (or haiti i don't remember) map, but he couldn't complete this map, which i believe was also up and running at the time of his ban? pretty ridiculous if you ask me gim....
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby Emperor_Metalman on Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:31 pm

OliverFA wrote:
Kotaro wrote:All this time fighting could be used to find a new artist..


I don't want a new artist. I want the thread about the map deleted.


Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


Just put the thread on vacatation/ put the thread in map ideas until someone else is found to work on the map.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby yeti_c on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:35 pm

I have to say - I agree with gimils call on the initial map - but not on this one.

This is Olivers map - whereas the other one was tom's map - this is a map where he is *just* doing the graphics...

However - now that has happened - I'm very sad that we might lose this map - please lets get an artist to help Oliver.

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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby OliverFA on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:31 pm

Due to the massive support that I have received, I am postponing my decission during Christmas. I will decide something after New Year. Once again, Thanks everybody for the support and Merry Christmas.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:39 pm

Good Luck Oliver---Hopefully I'll get to know you a little more after all of this. :)


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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby edbeard on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:30 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:so t-o-m was allowed to finish his madagascar map, but he couldn't complete this map, which i believe was also up and running at the time of his ban? pretty ridiculous if you ask me gim....


I think allowing him to finish that was a mistake but there's a huge difference between a map in drafts and a map with stamps or in final forge (I forget exactly where it was). just because they allowed that to happen doesn't mean they can't realise allowing a banned person to participate in the forum is a bad idea. we wouldn't have this problem if tom didn't get himself banned. that's the part everyone forgets. tom got himself banned. nobody else. tom did it.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby Qwert on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:50 pm

well Oliver,if you want mine advice abouth what to do is next:
first-some people here in map foundry dont like Tom,and these is facts.
second-any experience map maker will not help you to create map,its true.
third-any not experience map maker who never create map will also have problem what to do-if he ask advice from tom-he will get warning,if he continue with present map he will be also warning. If he start from white paper,then these will be big waste of previous time spend on making these map.
fourth-Andy and CA dont want any discusion abouth these-just look last postes from Andy"happy new year,i hope that you find new map maker,sorry" and these is end.
Five-If im in yours skin i will just drop these to recycle bin,belive me its best option,because you will be free from all these,and spend your free time for some better things.
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Re: Research & Conquer (OliverFA & t-o-m)

Postby AndyDufresne on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:16 pm

I'd steer clear from Qwert's 5th advice. ;)


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