The map formerly known as World Cities

[MrBenn]

Yay for tiny nitpicks!

I looked at the futura font, and it is awfully narrow so I think Helvetica might be a better choice. I will post both samples.

I definitely need to blend the title better, especially at the bottom edge as you mentioned Benn. I will try your suggested approach.

As for the flags, they should all be in the correct place, but some were not completely uniform images. So the Germany flag is aligned correctly vertically, but there is a light gray line at the top of the flag because some shadow or gleam became a line after shrinking it. I will go through the flags individually and try to fix such problems.

Fixed

[colton24]

something on the Germany flag the red is well just off the color of it it should look more like this



just smaller

[sully800]

Fixed

LOL I saw I did that and forgot to fix it. Thanks! I guess I've gone a bit loopy with this recent map concentration.

[Evil DIMwit]

Great work, Sully. Beautiful concept -- Leagues above and beyond those atrocities hanging there under the Classic label. I salute you warmly.

The only two things that bother me are

A) How close Atlanta and Havana are without being connected. I think you'd be better off shifting Atlanta a radius north to D.C. and having unambiguous crowding than sticking with confusing even distribution.

B) Calling this a map of World Cities does seem like a big bras d'honneur to Paris and several other cities. Maybe you should pick some cities that would've made it in if they weren't inconvenient geographically, and drop some strictly-aesthetic dots to mark them, as a sign of acknowledgment.

[SultanOfSurreal]

Great work, Sully. Beautiful concept -- Leagues above and beyond those atrocities hanging there under the Classic label. I salute you warmly.

The only two things that bother me are

A) How close Atlanta and Havana are without being connected. I think you'd be better off shifting Atlanta a radius north to D.C. and having unambiguous crowding than sticking with confusing even distribution.

B) Calling this a map of World Cities does seem like a big bras d'honneur to Paris and several other cities. Maybe you should pick some cities that would've made it in if they weren't inconvenient geographically, and drop some strictly-aesthetic dots to mark them, as a sign of acknowledgment.

I think showing other, non-territory cities would be too confusing, but looking at the map, Paris DID get shafted... I'd almost say it should be in in lieu of Berlin, but they're both important cities on the global stage, so I have no dog in that particular race.

As for Atlanta and Havana, I think they should be fine as is, especially since what we're looking at is the small version. Just my 2 cents.

[danfrank]

I have yet to see my earlier concern addressed.. Whats the point of posting in the foundry if its going to fall on deaf ears or blind eyes for that matter.. So here it is again.. South america and africa both get plus 2 for holding.. Africa has 2 borders and South america 1. South america is clearly going to be a stronghold. With rediculous connections such as honolulu to sydney and nairobi to jakarta . ( understandable for game play) Connecting a south american city to austrailia or africa is not unreasonable to balance play.. if connected to africa that region should have an additional army added to its bonus plus 3...

[sully800]

I have yet to see my earlier concern addressed.. Whats the point of posting in the foundry if its going to fall on deaf ears or blind eyes for that matter.. So here it is again.. South america and africa both get plus 2 for holding.. Africa has 2 borders and South america 1. South america is clearly going to be a stronghold. With rediculous connections such as honolulu to sydney and nairobi to jakarta . ( understandable for game play) Connecting a south american city to austrailia or africa is not unreasonable to balance play.. if connected to africa that region should have an additional army added to its bonus plus 3...

Thanks for your interest dan, I think I did address these points earlier but I will restate my thoughts.

It's true that South America is easier to defend than Sub Saharan Africa because there is only one access point. This advantage is limited however, because from South America there is no good place to expand. North America has many cities and many borders, so despite being a logical place to advance it will be very hard to capture and hold both North and South America.

Sub Saharan Africa is slightly harder to hold for a bonus of 2, but has a better chance to expand into other regions. Holding Europe + Merditerranean and Sub Saharan Africa gives a combined bonus of 7, and only requires 3 border cities. This is a very feasible combination, as is the expansion to Oceania which yields more borders and a smaller bonus (its a bit easier however because there are less total cities to conquer). So I agree that holding just Africa is undesirable, but due to it's location on the map it could possibly be the better starting position. I don't wish to add any borders because that will make both regions harder to hold, and I think you need to have a mix of easy and difficult continents.

As for the cities not included (notably Paris) I think Sultan is correct - marking them would be too confusing. Paris got shafted because of it's proximity to other major cities and the desired connection layout. You will see in early versions that I continually tried to keep Paris, even at the exclusion of Rome and Berlin, but for the desired gameplay it was not possible. If someone has a way to keep the connections the same and reorder the cities to include Paris and not lose a major city I'm all ears, but I don't think it will be possible.

I will spread Havana and Atlanta apart by another pixel or so to make it clear that they don't connect. DC is far to close to NY (as were Philly and Boston).

[SultanOfSurreal]

I really don't see a way to include Paris, except at the cost of London, which is equally detrimental as not including Paris in the first place...

You could take out Madrid, shift Berlin around a bit... but it would be really tight and neither city would be close to the right position on the map.

While we're talking about swapping cities out, I'd take Singapore in lieu of Jakarta, but is Singapore part of Oceania? It's technically on the main landmass of Asia after all.

[sully800]

I really don't see a way to include Paris, except at the cost of London, which is equally detrimental as not including Paris in the first place...

You could take out Madrid, shift Berlin around a bit... but it would be really tight and neither city would be close to the right position on the map.

While we're talking about swapping cities out, I'd take Singapore in lieu of Jakarta, but is Singapore part of Oceania? It's technically on the main landmass of Asia after all.

Yeah, I started with Singapore but it was suggested to switch to Jakarta since that is much more a part of Oceania. Singapore is all coast so it is almost off the continent but still on the main land. Also Jakarta works a little better since it's further from Hong Kong. The best case for Jakarta though is it's population! For a continuous urban area, it is the second largest in the world. It's ahead of New York City but only about 2/3 of the population of the Tokyo city region, which goes to show just how huge Tokyo is.

Some other fun facts: By metropolitan area, Tokyo and Seoul are almost 4 times as densely populated as NYC. But the real outliers are Mubai, Cairo and Karachi which are 8, 9 and 10 times more densely populated than New York.

[WidowMakers]

Lookin' Good.

A quick thought on how to help clean up the look a bit. I think you should try to center the names over the circles a bit more.
I know not all of them will be able to center but some of them are way off.

WM

[Peter Gibbons]

Been observing this map for awhile and like it a lot--since I HATE the classic maps on CC!

When this gets to Final Forge, I'm sure I'll have a few other nitpicks, but, for now... a question: is the argument for including Cairo in Europe/Mediterranean solely along the lines of making it like the real Risk (Hasbro) board? If that's the reason, I totally understand. But as it stands, Cairo leads only to Lagos. And it's in Africa. If you want to be geographically realistic/true, why not include Cairo in Egypt and alter the bonus structure? If you did that, I think a Cairo-Nairobi connection is obvious. Moreover (and I know in a World Cities map, suggestions like this will be rampant), you could also include Addis Ababa (with a possible connection to Mumbai) if you were so inclined, since there is definitely room in East Africa.

Like I've said, I think I know the answer to that question. I just want to see/hear it because I think that ignoring such restrictions can make this map more fun. I'm likely in the minority, but I think a great map like this does NOT have to directly replicate the original Risk map in regards to gameplay.

[Robinette]

Am i pleased?

why yes, just a little...


Brilliantly done... Sully!
Cities instead of countries, I LOVE IT!
And oh my, America has shifted to the Right (don't i wish, lol)

A certain recognizable game play, but with a fresh new look...
Dare i say, I like it BETTER than the old one..
It's missing my 2 favorite cities, San Francisco and Paris,
but hey, that just means they are spared from being AutoAttacked

Can't wait to play it...
Let me know when the beta map is ready...
I would consider it a GREAT HONOR to be invited to the very 1st game on this map!

[MrBenn]

/me awaits an update

[sully800]

Coming soon! I'm in the process of moving just after helping my sister to move. In 2 days I will have updates and Robinette can continue her joyous dancing!

[Supermarioluigi]

I must say, I love this map and can't wait for the final product.


The only thing bothering me is that there is only one direct connection between Europe and Asia (Moscow to Novosibirsk).
It seems like there should be some connection between Delhi and either Istanbul or Volgograd. (If there is a reason for such, and you've already said it earlier in the thread, I apologize, but I won't be reading every single post in here)

I also suggest uncovering Madagascar (perhaps moving the globe slightly to the right, there is room) just for the sake of looks.

I also agree with an earlier post, another city in East Africa would be welcome.

[General Guster]

Sully,
This is my first ever map foundry suggestion (I think). I LOVE your map...the graphics, font, and game play look superb. I have one very minor suggestion for the city scape heading: could you include that Australian opera dome "thing" as one of the buildings? I think it would be cool to have a structure or two from each continent.

Keep up the good work. We all appreciate the COUNTLESS hours you put into a great map!

[SultanOfSurreal]

yet another swap suggestion (you must get tired of these)

Instead of Johannesberg, I'd suggest Cape Town. Cape Town is only slightly smaller and it's better known, plus it's one of South Africa's three capitals.

also is there a way to move the "New York" text a bit? As it stands it almost completely covers the line that connects it to Montreal, making the connection difficult to discern.

[ender516]

I also suggest uncovering Madagascar (perhaps moving the globe slightly to the right, there is room) just for the sake of looks.

I think if you do this, the label for Perth will have to move to the opposite side of its circle, and then you may find that the text in that area is being crowded. I don't think it would be worth it to uncover Madagascar when it is not a playable area.

also is there a way to move the "New York" text a bit? As it stands it almost completely covers the line that connects it to Montreal, making the connection difficult to discern.

This suggestion I agree with. Moving the "New York" text to the south of the line connecting to London would be a good solution here.

[Robinette]

I can't wait to play this map...

And sorry i didn't know about it sooner...
I would have been happy to help with it's development...

I understand the trickiness and limitations of selecting the cities,
but for fun, I'm listing below the 42 largest cities of the world by population...

NOTE: the RED indicates cities NOT on this map... Also, these #'s include population within the recognized metro area of the city, including the immediate surrounding area outside of the established border of the city.

1. Tokyo, Japan - 28,025,000
2. Mexico City, Mexico - 18,131,000
3. Mumbai, India - 18,042,000
4. Sáo Paulo, Brazil - 17, 711,000
5. New York City, USA - 16,626,000
6. Shanghai, China - 14,173,000
7. Lagos, Nigeria - 13,488,000
8. Los Angeles, USA - 13,129,000
9. Calcutta, India - 12,900,000
10. Buenos Aires, Argentina - 12,431,000

11. Seóul, South Korea - 12,215,000
12. Beijing, China - 12,033,000
13. Karachi, Pakistan - 11,774,000
14. Delhi, India - 11,680,000
15. Dhaka, Bangladesh - 10,979,000
16. Manila, Philippines - 10,818,000
17. Cairo, Egypt - 10,772,000
18. Õsaka, Japan - 10,609,000
19. Rio de Janeiro, Brazil - 10,556,000
20. Tianjin, China - 10,239,000

21. Jakarta, Indonesia - 9,815,000
22. Paris, France - 9,638,000
23. Istanbul, Turkey - 9,413,000
24. Moscow, Russian Fed. - 9,299,000
25. London, United Kingdom - 7,640,000
26. Lima, Peru - 7,443,000
27. Tehrãn, Iran - 7,380,000
28. Bangkok, Thailand - 7,221,000
29. Chicago, USA - 6,945,000
30. Bogotá, Colombia - 6,834,000

31. Hyderabad, India - 6,833,000
32. Chennai, India - 6,639,000
33. Essen, Germany - 6,559,000
34. Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam - 6,424,519
35. Hangzhou, China - 6,389,000
36. Hong Kong, China - 6,097,000
37. Lahore, Pakistan - 6,030,000
38. Shenyang, China - 5,681,000
39. Changchun, China - 5,566,000
40. Bangalore, India - 5,544,000

41. Harbin, China - 5,475,000
42. Chengdu, China - 5,293,000

And here are the populations of 5 more on this map...
50. Toronto, Canada - 4,657,000
59. Madrid, Spain - 4,072,000
73. Sydney, Australia - 3,665,000
81. Montréal, Canada - 3,401,000
86. Berlin, Germany - 3,337,000

Leaving us with 6 cities not in the top 100 of the world...

Anyway... getting 8 out of the top 10 is excellent...
No criticism here... it's just interesting to see.

Later, I'll come up with a few more interesting lists...

[sully800]

Thanks for the info Robinette - it's nice to see it all highlighted like that.

There are many problems with choosing cities, some of which you already alluded to. First of all there are 3 major ways of defining a cities population (City proper, metropolitan area, and contiguous urban region) which create 3 drastically different lists of the largest cities in the world. Secondly, you have to consider the relative importance of a city, currently and historically. Therefore capitals get more weight, cultural centers get more weight etc. And finally the proximity to other large cities, and cities within the same country creates problems of space and a lack of diversity. Shanghai and Seoul are in tightly packed regions which caused them to be excluded (Seoul seems far down your list by the way, by metropolitan area it should be #2, but since Tokyo is #1 it got bumped). Miami was originally included, but there are already many US cities so it was switched in favor of Havana because Cuba was not represented.

In the end the main problem with going by largest population is that India and China have handfuls of cities which cannot be included because of space, and because they are not as well known to the rest of the world (especially our North America/European/Oceania audience on CC).

[Robinette]

Thanks for the info Robinette - it's nice to see it all highlighted like that.

...........Seoul seems far down your list by the way, by metropolitan area it should be #2............

I noticed that too... there are sooo many different criteria that can be used...

On wikipedia, they list the top 20, as of 2003, defining metropolitan area as delineating the urban area as the core, then adding surrounding communities that meet two criteria: (1) Less than 35% of the resident workforce must be engaged in agriculture or fishing; and (2) At least 20% of the working residents commute to the urban core. Using that method provides this result...

1 Tokyo Japan 32,450,000
2 Seoul South Korea 20,550,000
3 Mexico City Mexico 20,450,000
4 New York City United States 19,750,000
5 Mumbai India 19,200,000
6 Jakarta Indonesia 18,900,000
7 São Paulo Brazil 18,850,000
8 Delhi India 18,600,000
9 Osaka-Kobe-Kyoto Japan 17,375,000
10 Shanghai People's Republic of China 16,650,000
11 Metro Manila Philippines 16,300,000
12 Hong Kong-Shenzhen[5] People's Republic of China 15,800,000
13 Los Angeles United States 15,250,000
14 Kolkata India 15,100,000
15 Moscow Russia 15,000,000
16 Cairo Egypt 14,450,000
17 Buenos Aires Argentina 13,170,000
18 London United Kingdom 12,875,000
19 Beijing People's Republic of China 12,500,000
20 Karachi Pakistan 11,800,000

7 out of 10, and 15 out of 20... not bad

[Robinette]

heheheee...

The top 10 cities with the most beautiful women... (from Traveler's Digest)

1. Robinette-Valley just kidding... i'll start over...

1. Stockholm
2. Copenhagen
3. Buenos Aires
4. Varna, Bulgaria
5. Moscow
6. Caracas
7. Tel Aviv
8. Amsterdam
9. Seoul
10. Montreal


Yikes... with 42 cities, you missed 60% of the top ten... hehehee

[SultanOfSurreal]

I've never thought population alone should be the deciding factor anyway... I pushed for Lhasa and Las Vegas (hey, I got one of them in at least), two major cultural centers with relatively small populations.

[ender516]

Ah, culture and Las Vegas: they go together like beer and bananas... Just kidding -- a big part of a culture is how a people entertains itself, and LV is all about entertainment.

[Robinette]

Ah, culture and Las Vegas: they go together like beer and bananas... Just kidding -- a big part of a culture is how a people entertains itself, and LV is all about entertainment.

Hey... about that beer and those bananas... what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas!

Las Vegas happens to be the youngest of the 42 cities...
mnnnn... this could make for an interesting trivia question...

Can anyone name the 5 YOUNGEST cities on this map?
HINT: all 5 were established AFTER the American civil war, and only one is in the US