EW's Semi-Open Matrix Madness

[Ragian]

Holy bejesus. Well, likely too late, but just your average vanilla townie.

When I do flip town, please, for the love of God, look at pmc. Origami not listen to Max either. He's the new Mitch.

Anywho, good luck town!

Not sure what origami is here unless it's a typo. I haven't seen anything too out of the ordinary from PMC. Also a tiny bit late to start playing the game when lynched...

Max went against DDS with 1 or 2 sentences per post, none of which offered any new analytical insight as to why DDS might be scum.
I question whether he thought the vote swing would work, I thought it was too late and wouldn't.
Blending in with apparent action and posts, throughout D1, amounting to zilch.
Unless anything substantive from PRs revealed I most want to see max lynched D2

That's two people pointing at Max. DDS, who is probably licking his wound, and LC. Have you ever played with Max before? This is his M.O. I mean like one to one. I find it quite odd that you've already decided on your D2 lynch. What's all the elaborate structure posts for, then?

Then there's Charlie's post. It's very opportunistic to decide on your D2 lynch based on D1. Town don't know who is scum, so we look at gameplay. DDS departed from his M.O., failed to read the rules for voting, and basically just goofed about. It felt like scum DDS being uncomfortable with his role and just posting along not even trying to understand the game in a "well, I just need to nightkill someone, so never mind all the other bollocks." Scum, on the other hand, know who is town, so it's extremely easy for them to stay out of the D1 lynch and then point fingers D2. I feel that's what Charle is doing.

7. DirtyDishSoap: Folks were saying he was playing differently this game. I didn't really get that. He seemed like the same 'too cool for school'

[...] Rag and Max can be very persuasive with their totally unsubstantiated arguments (That is until you get to know them...)
[...]

12. Ragian: Rags actually dedicated more, letters, words, and posts to getting DDS lynched than Max did... and I don't think of rags as a tunneler, I think of him as highly manipulative. He might not so much have cared that DDS died, [i]but he did seem to really care that swang lived.

It's fine that you didn't see DDS playing differently. It's not unsubstantiated, however. It's based on experience of playing style and knowledge of the player. And you're right. I wanted DDS lynched over swang. Swang didn't post much till the end, but lynching someone over absence is dumb because you start from scratch again D2. It's a free lynch for scum. Here, D2, we already have conversations going based on the lynch. Now, we just need to utilise it.

[Ragian]

Who would have tought I was right - you better work right to avenge me townies

This could also, potentially, be interesting. What was traf right about? Anyone?

[Votanic]

Who would have tought I was right - you better work right to avenge me townies

This could also, potentially, be interesting. What was traf right about? Anyone?

Probably just most-mortem arguing his his 'no lynch' stance, nothing more than that.

Ragian, the evidence you just gave that you think substantiates your argument that DDS was playing differently is questionable at best
...but the conclusion you promoted (That DDS was scum) has been shown to be factually wrong. Again, the bandwagon you pushed was wrong.

INDEED, the fact that you went out so hard to campaign for this lynch on Day 1, is actually quite unlike your usual playstyle. Usually you start off just asking dialectic-style questions without stating a strong opinion. So hy come out so hard on this when the evidence was so vague?
One possibility is that you and swang are both scum, maybe swang is even a scum PR such as roleblocker?
It is something to consider. In any case, I have not revoked my FOS at you.

Notably, Charle has also independently drawn a scummy connection between ragian and swang, though he also tosses PMC into the cabal which seems like more of a stretch...

[Loose Canon]

Rag you are saying Max is playing to his MO.
There would be no reason for Max to consciously deviate from his Town MO to a different MO as Mafia.
I've set out my reasons for suspecting him in particular and I did it at the earliest opportunity when he jumped out to me as suspect (and I don't yet see an imperative to unvote him).
I also still suspect Votanic.
And actually with just about everyone I think I COULD read suspicion into them.
I have read other players suspicions of other players.
Just about all of the reasoning COULD be valid, but it can't all be, and in fact there have been plausible reasons put out there to be suspicious of everyone now.

I really really hope the narrowing lynchees down to 2 candidates each day idea takes hold.

Then I will consider each of those 2 candidates on their merits and vote for who I think is the most likely out of those 2 to be Mafia.

[Ragian]

Who would have tought I was right - you better work right to avenge me townies

This could also, potentially, be interesting. What was traf right about? Anyone?

Probably just most-mortem arguing his his 'no lynch' stance, nothing more than that.

Ragian, the evidence you just gave that you think substantiates your argument that DDS was playing differently is questionable at best
...but the conclusion you promoted (That DDS was scum) has been shown to be factually wrong. Again, the bandwagon you pushed was wrong.

INDEED, the fact that you went out so hard to campaign for this lynch on Day 1, is actually quite unlike your usual playstyle. Usually you start off just asking dialectic-style questions without stating a strong opinion. So hy come out so hard on this when the evidence was so vague?
One possibility is that you and swang are both scum, maybe swang is even a scum PR such as roleblocker?
It is something to consider. In any case, I have not revoked my FOS at you.

Notably, Charle has also independently drawn a scummy connection between ragian and swang, though he also tosses PMC into the cabal which seems like more of a stretch...

Okay, Captain Hindsight. I understand your love for the horse, but you need to understand that I wasn't privy to the information that DDS was town prelynch. Were you? I could restate my case, for which I make no excuse, but penetrating your Freaky Friday armour is beyond my skills, it seems. I threw in a popular culture reference, however. I hope it makes sense.

You can FoS all you want. You should if you find anomalies, but saying I don't push lynches I believe in when town is lack of enough games with me at best or malicious lies in an attempt to throw shade on a contributing townie.

[Ragian]

Rag you are saying Max is playing to his MO.
There would be no reason for Max to consciously deviate from his Town MO to a different MO as Mafia.
I've set out my reasons for suspecting him in particular and I did it at the earliest opportunity when he jumped out to me as suspect (and I don't yet see an imperative to unvote him).
I also still suspect Votanic.
And actually with just about everyone I think I COULD read suspicion into them.
I have read other players suspicions of other players.
Just about all of the reasoning COULD be valid, but it can't all be, and in fact there have been plausible reasons put out there to be suspicious of everyone now.

I really really hope the narrowing lynchees down to 2 candidates each day idea takes hold.

Then I will consider each of those 2 candidates on their merits and vote for who I think is the most likely out of those 2 to be Mafia.

But Max always does that. I can't see him being scum for that.

[pmchugh]

FYI, i am abroad at a wedding for the next few days so don't expect much in the way of input.

Having said that vote charle

[swang918]

So the followup question for ragian is: yes, Max is playing 100% his usual MO as town, but what is Max's MO as scum? Does he also play this way. In other words are you reading it as townish or just pure neutral

[Votanic]

Okay, Captain Hindsight. I understand your love for the horse, but you need to understand that I wasn't privy to the information that DDS was town prelynch. Were you? I could restate my case, for which I make no excuse, but penetrating your Freaky Friday armour is beyond my skills, it seems. I threw in a popular culture reference, however. I hope it makes sense.

180% to the contrary, I am suggesting that you would have known DDS was town because you may well be scum.
Also, my reminding town about your sketchy behavior from the day before doesn't make me Captain Hindsight, rather it means I'm playing the game.

[fusibaseball]

The vote swap to DDS at the eleventh hour was a little weird to me. How did 4 people come to separate conclusions within 4 hours that DDS should be voted instead of Swang? Seems like to me there's a layer of protection for Swang.

[Loose Canon]

I liked swangs late in the day posts.
Enough so that I considered switching back from vot to no lynch.

I didn't because I thought:
1. Just because I liked swangs posts doesn't make him innocent
2. Swang you've left it too late, if you couldn't get your act together to post earlier why should I save you now when I don't know if you are innocent.
3. It would undermine what I was proposing for D2 lynching strategy and that would be most damaging.

But the fact that I considered no lynch vote to save swang means I find the vote switch not that suspicious in itself.
But that the saving switch was onto DDS was what bugged me most.
And rightly or wrongly it is the shadowy suggestion by Max that I find more suss than the switching.

[Votanic]

The vote swap to DDS at the eleventh hour was a little weird to me. How did 4 people come to separate conclusions within 4 hours that DDS should be voted instead of Swang? Seems like to me there's a layer of protection for Swang.

It isn't weird, it's scummy.
Now obviously some of the votes are just townies who decided to get on any winning bandwagon no matter how wketchy the set up...
...but some of those votes are very likely scum.

The following players voted and in some cases promoted (those in bold) the lynch of DDS... Ironically, only swang has a really good excuse.
Take note that they also break down into three categories.

Votes in before the announced deadline: Max, Ragian, pmc,
Votes in after the deadline, but counted anyway: Swang, Kongming
Votes in after the deadline, not counted: Devante, strikewolf

I really wish EW would explain how this could have happened. I know mistakes happen, but forgetting a deadline you specifically set... that is a bit weird.
Okay, okay, I'll curb my suspicions for now, but I have already played one game where the mod bastardly broke their own rules just to maintain scum's advantage... and with this game already designed to deny Town any real chance....

However, I do have another question for EW...
@EW: What are the differences between the roles of 'Tracker' (for Town) and 'Watcher' (for Scum)? I'd like some clarification on that...

FPed by LC...
Speaking of too late?!? LC if you wanted any Town cred for suspecting swang, you should have spoke up yesterday before or during the boondoggle that got DDS lynched. Now it just looks more of your awkward damage control. (Remember last game...)

[Loose Canon]

Votanic,

You are just carpet bombing us with confusion.
Some of your posts make sense, parts of some of your posts make sense, a few seem plain wrong, many seem to contain elements that are deliberately misleading.
But by slipping enough sense into just enough posts it is you who is trying to preserve your town cred from past games.
Past games mean nothing in terms of town cred for this game though.

Me I'm keeping my posts to mainly a few themes until other things pop out at me.
1. Best strategy for town discussions
2. When someone really pops out at me as suspicious who they are and why.
Votanic D1 (all of it and still D2) and Max from right at the end of D1 after rereading the sum of his posts earlier D1

[Charle]

Was a very busy weekend, anyway, the reason for my list is the following:

PMC was pushing for the lynch pack, of which I also agreed with and still think it is a good thing day 1. Anyway, PMC was very happy to go with Swang or DDS.

I'd rather go swang or DDS than dev, but would rather dev than no lynch. Is anyone happy to make a lynch pact? Where we agree to bandwagon people to avoid no lynches?

I will start;

Lynch Pact Signatories
1. PMC

When this pack grew and we decided to go lynching somebody, the person with the most votes at that time was Swang, and that included PMC. Remember, at that stage Swang was very absent. So, the most obvious choice would be to go for Swang to ensure we can get a guaranteed lynch, and I voted Swang.

A few moments later, PMC (the lynch instigator) changed is vote from Swang to DDS whereafter Ragian followed almost immediately. DDS gave nobody any reason to be scum at that time and Ragian then went on with this serious campaign to get votes for DDS, asking people to change from Swang to DDS.

My thinking now:
PMC mentioned Swang as a decoy in the post above, the moment he saw that it might go that way, he changed his vote to DDS hoping to save Swang. Remember, scum talk to each other, and right after that Ragian followed with his DDS compaign. This is the type of action one would take if you see that one of your fellow scum mates might get lynched and you should take a drastic turn.

To put some more fuel on the fire, the moment PMC read my post and he might be caught pants down, he voted me

I agree with Traf's dead note, and because of that, if I am not lynched today, I will probably be killed tonight. I am 100% town.

[swang918]

I am slightly town reading Charle for mentioning that pmc has this move where he votes a fellow scum early on D1 and apparently did that in the forest game. That's not something I would have caught or knew myself and is interesting to know, and there's no reason to share that now if charle is scum.

however this doesn't mean I'm scum reading pmc. Still just neutral on pmc, just noticing that it is townish for Charle to share this intel.

[Devante]

I've been swamped in RL so haven't been able to contribute much but I'm not buying it. Something feels off on how that all went down end of D1 and with the switch. I threw my vote in not that it ended up counting but so a lynch got in before end of day but the switcharoo doesn't sit right especially after reading some of these D2 posts. I need to do a reread of everything so far and then post some thoughts. Deadlines not for a while right guys right so we have lots of time

[Ragian]

So the followup question for ragian is: yes, Max is playing 100% his usual MO as town, but what is Max's MO as scum? Does he also play this way. In other words are you reading it as townish or just pure neutral

Good question. Have I seen him as scum ever? I have to go back and check.

Okay, Captain Hindsight. I understand your love for the horse, but you need to understand that I wasn't privy to the information that DDS was town prelynch. Were you? I could restate my case, for which I make no excuse, but penetrating your Freaky Friday armour is beyond my skills, it seems. I threw in a popular culture reference, however. I hope it makes sense.

180% to the contrary, I am suggesting that you would have known DDS was town because you may well be scum.
Also, my reminding town about your sketchy behavior from the day before doesn't make me Captain Hindsight, rather it means I'm playing the game.

Nice. You left out a paragraph That's more scummy than pushing a lynch that you believe in.

A few moments later, PMC (the lynch instigator) changed is vote from Swang to DDS whereafter Ragian followed almost immediately. DDS gave nobody any reason to be scum at that time and Ragian then went on with this serious campaign to get votes for DDS, asking people to change from Swang to DDS.

Are you skimming my posts or just being VERY selective? I think even the table on which my computer rests has understood the reasons for me thinking that DDS was scum. Also, I voted DDS early. I mean before PMC. (To be honest, I haven't checked that, but that's how I recall D1, and I'll check in a bit.) Dude...

[Ragian]

I voted for DDS on page 8 while it took PMC three-four whole pages to change his vote to DDS.

[Extreme Ways]

Votes cast so far:
Max - LC
LC - Vot
Charle - PMC

[Votanic]

Votes cast so far:
Max - LC
LC - Vot
Charle - PMC

Did you see my questions?
If not, read chat.

[Maxleod]

Votes cast so far:
Max - LC
LC - Vot
Charle - PMC

Did you see my questions?
If not, read chat.

UHHH.... What chat exactly? Scum slip? Could it be?

Vote Votanic

[Votanic]

Votes cast so far:
Max - LC
LC - Vot
Charle - PMC

Did you see my questions?
If not, read chat.

UHHH.... What chat exactly? Scum slip? Could it be?

Vote Votanic

You doofus, I'm talking about this chat.
I asked EW a couple questions which you should have noticed if you weren't skimming by...
...and for that matter, EW should have noticed them too. I guess mods can skim worse than anyone.

So what now, Max? Are you trying to start another lynch-tunnel??
Well it's too late, because you already wrecked any town cred you had...
Even if you are town (looking more doubtful...) you're just bad, tunneling, town-lynching, skimming Town, so knock it off.

[*Pixar*]

Although not much help, I'm reading these guys as town:

Charle- Very good thoughts on PMC/Ragian
Vot- Posting his normal scum hunt thoughts and asking the question why the deadline was broken, and a lynch happened. Something I think a mafia member would not ask.
Max- Don't see anything unusual about his behavior
Pix- If anyone knows me, I'm usually more active when I have a more exciting role to use. Therefore I'm 100% town

Reading Scum:

Ragian/PMC/Swang - As Charle said PMC initially going after swang and then moving to DDS could be a panic move. Adding Ragian to this 3 some just because he's always up to no good

Neutral:

Kongming- I always feel like this guy is fishy, but last game turned out I was wrong and he was actually town.
Devante/Strike - Voting after deadline and a lynch is always a fishy move for sure. But I've also done it a few times just by skimming. I'm definitely side eyeing you two.
LC- Still don't know what his action plan really does for town
Fusi - Like me hasn't contributed much so not too sure what kind of read I'm getting.

[Loose Canon]

Pixar,

With multiple candidates for lynching a 2-1 split of scum can drive a mislynch, and maybe even without such a split.

By narrowing down to 2 candidates much harder for scum to drive a mislynch without risking leaving a voting pattern trail.

Do the maths

[Ragian]

I can't believe that you guys honestly think that Charle's post was good. I'll repost this for you:

A few moments later, PMC (the lynch instigator) changed is vote from Swang to DDS whereafter Ragian followed almost immediately. DDS gave nobody any reason to be scum at that time and Ragian then went on with this serious campaign to get votes for DDS, asking people to change from Swang to DDS.

Are you skimming my posts or just being VERY selective? I think even the table on which my computer rests has understood the reasons for me thinking that DDS was scum. Also, I voted DDS early. I mean before PMC. (To be honest, I haven't checked that, but that's how I recall D1, and I'll check in a bit.) Dude...

1) I've clearly stated why I suspected DDS. The move for swang was due to inactivity, which yields absolutely nothing. We'd be the exact same place D2.
2) Charle says that I "followed almost immediately" when PMC changed his vote. That's just flat out wrong. I voted DDS early doors. I didn't follow PMC. I was vocal about my suspicion and voted accordingly. If, and this is already a stretch, Charle has worded himself poorly and just means that I started campaigning for others to change their votes after PMC changed his vote, I can tell you that PMC changed his vote on p. 12 (Thu May 16, 2024 11:13 pm )

Here is Max on p. 14 (Sun May 19, 2024 6:39 pm):

Hmm... Deadline is close. Townies on the Swang wagon, please jump on the DDS one. Fusi ADMITTEDLY started this wagon after I voted his fellow scumbag DDS, as some kind of red herring. Please, just please, come to your senses.

Still no campaigning from me (unless you count me questioning DDS and trying to get him to say something useful) until we get to p. 15 (Sun May 19, 2024 8:59 pm) in which post I even give out the cliffnotes of my scumread:

Refusal to work!

Come on, Vot, help me get rid of DDS (he can be your bad townie if you don't think he's scum...I fancy my chances). At least he has been inconsistent throughout.

So, what the flippin' something is this about me "following almost immediately"?