Mitsuko - IT abuse and racism [Cleared]

[Woodruff]

Woody. It was translated and shown to not be diplomatic conversation. Pretty clear no rules violation.

There has been a precedent set that you cannot say "use Google to translate" to cover up posting in game chat in a language not ALL users understand.

Well where is that precedent? The rules state clearly as it pertains to diplomacy.

The precedent is every single time I have seen this situation come up previously in the C&A forum.

[king sam]

The precedent is every single time I have seen this situation come up previously in the C&A forum.

I have never seen it set either. I know we say that it is not recommended but I cant remember a case where a hunter/mod said your not allowed to have conversation in game chat in any other language then English or one that is understood by all.

Obviously you get a player talking in a language you don't understand and everyone's first reaction goes down the secret diplomacy avenue, which is why we don't recommend it. But I am outsourcing and asking, just cause I don't remember seeing it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

[DJPatrick]

Thanx for the consideration Sam...
In this game one of the other players was spanish and he and I, due to common experiences, also conversed a little in Spanish (well Spanglish mostly on my part) so I had no problems and asking someone(politely) to translate for you shld hardly qualify as putting them on the defensive...
Both the Spanish player and myself also spoke about having spent time in Japan to actually try to put this player at ease ...
and yes I have no problem with being sub-human/a dumb f*ck/whatever...but if that perception of "less than human" is hinged on a (mercifully fading) Japanese cultural perception based on my race then yes I do take exception...
Was it???
Hard to tell when the player never replied to requests for clarification???
Wld that player be capable of such a conivance??? suggest a close examination of the other games more recently cited.
Someone also mentioned "not posting in games you're not playing" and I cldn't understand where this happens in the instance but have just come across it in
GAME 6004063.
As I have now un-foed him to be able to see all his posts on this matter, it appears I shall bear the brunt of his barrage on my wall, in my in-box, and now in other no-related games...

[Mitsuko]

Djpatrick, I find it curious you play the victim when you insulted me. You cry about being treated the way you treat others, and because I can read and comprehend english better than you can somehow I cheat.

First you save I have IT abuse because you foe me and chat game is gone for you to see. Then you say I'm racists because of what? No evidence presented period shows that. You accuse some one because of being rude. Be an adult, and take the berating you deserved for the way you behaved.

As for king sam, flaming, trolling, whatever lame excuse you want to use for catering to this wailing child, feel free to ban me. I'm not sure what country this is based off of, however I do know how tort law works in reference to purchasing something like this. Less than a week after a purchase, if you do revoke my premium access, you will not be keeping your measly 25 dollars. Of that I promise.

Few things I'd like to point out. I made this comment, "good luck in the match for you" after comments were made of

2009-11-27 08:06:48 - SirSebstar: MITSUKO SAN!!! Please take your turn. Domo Arrigato!
2009-11-27 08:08:54 - SirSebstar: Hi mate to down under, and hola to our spanish friend..
2009-11-27 08:09:19 - SirSebstar: No Hable Espagnol,; i dont speak spanish.. well not much anyways
2009-11-27 08:11:03 - DJPatrick: si habla Espanol porquito...No soi americano, no soi rico...
2009-11-27 08:12:06 - SirSebstar: can you say rico nowadays?

I missed no turns, yet a rather rude comment is made. Furthermore, after my comment of basicaly "Good luck"
2009-11-27 08:33:05 - DJPatrick: okay Mitsuko...I know you can cuss pretty well in English so if you're gonna have a crack at Non-Japanese then you should do so in English as this is a requirement of CC...okay? I've got broad shoulders to take anything from anyone man enough to make
2009-11-27 08:33:29 - DJPatrick: ...to make their remarks understood...up for it???

Failure to comprehend what the rule states. Ignorance again by DJpatrick. And then this comment at the games end.

2009-11-27 09:20:47 - DJPatrick: Not really...you DO have a big chip on your shoulder tho as a Japanese person living in the US...get a grip...not all pps are racist and i KNOW that your are milking your ethnicity to disguise your bad play/humour/attitude/whatever...chill out you angry

Milking my ethnicity to disguise my disgust for your inferiority? You don't understand Japanese culture. Don't even try to start. Then I receive this message from djpatrick

other players do understand...you were told they didn't and you continued...hell, I even tried to make peace but you are just too angry with something to let it be...I'm not certain where your identity problems stem from but keep them to yourself...masturbating your mind becoz there is no love in your heart seems to be a global problem so don't concentrate on ethnicity when you wanna feel good about yourself...
Chz and goodbye...

I'm not really sure where in the game chat he ever attempted to make peace. Just some hippy idealism about the fall of society.

However, evidently I've spammed his wall. While he hasn't deleted them yet, here are the comments made.

Decent player. Very rude. by Mitsuko
on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:27 am

and the second
I do hope to play against you again sometime by Mitsuko
on Fri Nov 27, 2009 9:36 am

But, now as I've played my part in this pathetic little drama, Djpatrick, grow up.

[the.killing.44]

viewtopic.php?f=239&t=95992&p=2195074&hilit=+language+all+understand#p2198562
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=94635&p=2167192&hilit=+language+all+understand#p2169602
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=76533&p=1825797&hilit=+language+all+understand#p1825797

[Mitsuko]

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=239&t=95992&p=2195074&hilit=+language+all+understand#p2198562
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=94635&p=2167192&hilit=+language+all+understand#p2169602
viewtopic.php?f=239&t=76533&p=1825797&hilit=+language+all+understand#p1825797

To point out your stupidity yet again.

Any form of diplomatic discussion between opponents must be posted in the game chat in English or in a language that all opponents understand. Diplomacy includes, but is not limited to: proposing truces, negotiating alliances, and coordinating assaults. Secret diplomacy can be hard to prove, but if you suspect it you should leave the players in question appropriate ratings. If you feel certain about players engaging in secret diplomacy consider reporting them in the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum by posting a new topic.

Granted I understand ...basic english is hard to grasp. Making a comment in japanese, which no other players understand is not making a diplomacy. Is not coordinating assaults, truces, alliances, etc. Each of the links post refer to people discussing tactics in a form of communication that others did not understand.

[the.killing.44]

To point out your stupidity yet again.

Blah blah blah

To point out your stupidity.

The precedent is every single time I have seen this situation come up previously in the C&A forum.

I have never seen it set either. I know we say that it is not recommended but I cant remember a case where a hunter/mod said your not allowed to have conversation in game chat in any other language then English or one that is understood by all.

Obviously you get a player talking in a language you don't understand and everyone's first reaction goes down the secret diplomacy avenue, which is why we don't recommend it. But I am outsourcing and asking, just cause I don't remember seeing it, doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Woody. It was translated and shown to not be diplomatic conversation. Pretty clear no rules violation.

There has been a precedent set that you cannot say "use Google to translate" to cover up posting in game chat in a language not ALL users understand.

Well where is that precedent? The rules state clearly as it pertains to diplomacy.

That's who I was talking to.

[jefjef]

Killing. Did you look at the links you cited?

The 1st one pertained to using a non english language AFTER a truce in english was established.

The 2nd only reiterates the rule.

THIS CASE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DIPLOMACY. His use of Japanese had nothing to do with truces - strategies. You trying to bait and flame or what? Go post your answer on my wall.

[king sam]

Making a comment in japanese, which no other players understand is not making a diplomacy. Is not coordinating assaults, truces, alliances, etc. Each of the links post refer to people discussing tactics in a form of communication that others did not understand.

As jefjef and mitsuko have said all 3 of those involved diplomatic discussions at one point or another with chat that wasn't understood by all.

On a side not Mitsuko watch the name calling/flaming/baiting or else you will receive a Warning.

[the.killing.44]

Killing. Did you look at the links you cited?

The 1st one pertained to using a non english language AFTER a truce in english was established.

The 2nd only reiterates the rule.

THIS CASE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DIPLOMACY. His use of Japanese had nothing to do with truces - strategies. You trying to bait and flame or what? Go post your answer on my wall.

That is not what you asked. I know and agree that the links aren't about this case, but from my (and apparently Woodruff's) interpretation of what king sam and yourself asked about precedents, the links proved the point.

[DJPatrick]

Mitsuko wrote:
I do know how tort law works in reference to purchasing something like this. Less than a week after a purchase, if you do revoke my premium access, you will not be keeping your measly 25 dollars. Of that I promise.

Hmm, A conundrum...fairness and equality for all and accept the mods' decision or a costly law suit over the measly 25 dollars???

But then all became clear---

Mitsuko wrote:
Just some hippy idealism

Caring sharing tree-hugger that I reportedly am, I will share some of that to the tune of 25 dollars in this case to ensure CC escapes financial ruin ( and for some less-fouled atmosphere)...

[ArskaPerkele]

Threatening legal action over the internet.

This guy is dangerous.

[king sam]

Woody. It was translated and shown to not be diplomatic conversation. Pretty clear no rules violation.

There has been a precedent set that you cannot say "use Google to translate" to cover up posting in game chat in a language not ALL users understand.

Well where is that precedent? The rules state clearly as it pertains to diplomacy.

The precedent is every single time I have seen this situation come up previously in the C&A forum.

I have never seen it set either. I know we say that it is not recommended but I cant remember a case where a hunter/mod said your not allowed to have conversation in game chat in any other language then English or one that is understood by all.

That is not what you asked. I know and agree that the links aren't about this case, but from my (and apparently Woodruff's) interpretation of what king sam and yourself asked about precedents, the links proved the point.

Read the context above, we were asking about the precedent that you cant talk in a foreign language ever. As the rule states if you write in a foreign language to users in the game and conduct diplomatic discussions then that's against the rules. However in this case the accused wrote in text that wasn't understood by all but wasn't about diplomatic discussions. Woody was saying there was a precedent that it isn't allowed even under those circumstances, I and jefjef were stating that we had never seen that precedent set. And the 3 you site all had diplomatic discussions in them. Either way I am waiting for further clarification on this to send out the ruling.

[Woodruff]

Woody. It was translated and shown to not be diplomatic conversation. Pretty clear no rules violation.

There has been a precedent set that you cannot say "use Google to translate" to cover up posting in game chat in a language not ALL users understand.

Well where is that precedent? The rules state clearly as it pertains to diplomacy.

The precedent is every single time I have seen this situation come up previously in the C&A forum.

I have never seen it set either. I know we say that it is not recommended but I cant remember a case where a hunter/mod said your not allowed to have conversation in game chat in any other language then English or one that is understood by all.

That is not what you asked. I know and agree that the links aren't about this case, but from my (and apparently Woodruff's) interpretation of what king sam and yourself asked about precedents, the links proved the point.

Read the context above, we were asking about the precedent that you cant talk in a foreign language ever. As the rule states if you write in a foreign language to users in the game and conduct diplomatic discussions then that's against the rules. However in this case the accused wrote in text that wasn't understood by all but wasn't about diplomatic discussions. Woody was saying there was a precedent that it isn't allowed even under those circumstances, I and jefjef were stating that we had never seen that precedent set. And the 3 you site all had diplomatic discussions in them. Either way I am waiting for further clarification on this to send out the ruling.

I have attempted to find the examples I was referring to, and can't find any. So either they don't exist and I'm simply mis-remembering (a definite possibility) or my search-skills suck (also a definite possibility). <grin>

[TheScarecrow]

i do remember a time when that rules was written differently.

ANY chat in a language that was not understood by everyone in the game was a rule breaker *im fairly sure anyway*

but as has been stated earlier... providing that the 'foreign' chat doesnt involve plotting truces... what are we all worried about?

[DJPatrick]

Hi Scarecrow,
I,m not really worried by "foreign" language...ever...every language is foreign to someone...at least sometimes...
I am worried when ambiguous words in that foreign language which can be construed in a derogatory, racist sense are used in game chat.
Given that worry, i asked the poster to explain, in a language understood by all what they meant and received no reply...
given that the poster of the remark is quite fluent in English that is not an unreasonable request.
Given that the poster of the remarks has a history of derogatory posts, in English, it is not unreasonable to request some feedback,,,
Given that the poster finally replied with person attacks, a barrage of wall posts, PMs and posts in my unrelated games' game chat...there is indeed some cause for concern...
Chz and waiting...

[king sam]

The only reason this hasn't been closed yet is for the fact we are trying to get a consensus on how to interpret rule #2.

Mitsuko posted in game chat in a language not all users understood, but he was not doing so to conduct secret diplomacy. He is Cleared of Secret Diplomacy.

Occasionally you will see the 4 letter word, Mitsuko is Cleared of game chat abuse in the games you sited earlier.

Game 5987588 Game 5993287
Game 5993412 Game 5993439
Game 6008077 Game 6008734
Game 6008788

I loosely translated his game chat in your game and came to the conclusion that the Japanese terms he was using were not bigotry in nature. He is Cleared of the bigotry claim.

And lastly he came in your game (Game 6004063) and asked you

2009-11-27 10:34:24 - Mitsuko: If you wish to finish that conversation DJpatrick, let me know.

He is Cleared of this infraction as well.

As I said this is still pending due to the fact that I am waiting to put out to the public if their is a stipulation to rule 2 or if their isn't.

If you have derogatory PM's that have been sent to you that you think are a violation of the community guidelines then please feel free to PM those to me. This is not wall abuse.

Decent player. Very rude.

I do hope to play against you again sometime

King Sam

[Woodruff]

i do remember a time when that rules was written differently.

ANY chat in a language that was not understood by everyone in the game was a rule breaker *im fairly sure anyway*

but as has been stated earlier... providing that the 'foreign' chat doesnt involve plotting truces... what are we all worried about?

The problem is that we won't know unless we're forced to go use a language translator to find out. At least, I think that's a problem.

[DJPatrick]

Yes, the translation requirement IS the problem...(esp as this was a speed game)...using different languages is NOT the prob but I feel an explanation/translation shld be given by the poster, if asked, then it can be translated later to see if diplomacy or abuse is involved if there are hints there may be...

[Mitsuko]

Seeing as he's now trying to push anything to try and inflict any sort of harm.

Djpatrick made the post 2009-11-27 08:11:03 - DJPatrick: si habla Espanol porquito...No soi americano, no soi rico... 6008056.

I am not spanish, I do not understand that language. I accuse him of abuse of not using a language all understand. Also, I'd like to point out a following post of his

DJPatrick: okay Mitsuko...I know you can cuss pretty well in English so if you're gonna have a crack at Non-Japanese then you should do so in English as this is a requirement of CC...okay? I've got broad shoulders to take anything from anyone man enough to make

DJPatrick: like I said I can't understand (most of) what you're trying to say...so say it so pps CAN comprehend it???

in which he assumed I was insulting him. He knew there was no "secret diplomacy" at all in my statements yet, he creates this thread. This "racism" report is just an attack on some one who calls him on his stupidity and lack of self esteem. I would just go on but it gets sorta mean and it might be considered "flaming" oh no...so read this, close this, and be done with this stupidity.

[jefjef]

Yes, the translation requirement IS the problem...(esp as this was a speed game)...using different languages is NOT the prob but I feel an explanation/translation shld be given by the poster, if asked, then it can be translated later to see if diplomacy or abuse is involved if there are hints there may be...

Translator may be an issue but it really doesn't matter as far as an ongoing speed game is concerned. The game will not be terminated by CC. The player wouldn't get kicked from a speed game in time due to disciplinary actions. So translate it then file the complaint if one is in order.

But there is no way CC can require english only for non-diplomatic conversation. It makes no sense.

[SuicidalSnowman]

As for king sam, flaming, trolling, whatever lame excuse you want to use for catering to this wailing child, feel free to ban me. I'm not sure what country this is based off of, however I do know how tort law works in reference to purchasing something like this. Less than a week after a purchase, if you do revoke my premium access, you will not be keeping your measly 25 dollars. Of that I promise.

Uh, no, you don't know what you are talking about. CC can, in fact, revoke your membership. By signing up you acknowledged the terms of service. Short of going into the detailed legal discussion of legal issues, don't you think this would have come up before with other members?

Also, this has nothing to do with Torts, this would be in the large area of law referred to as Contracts law.

(Bonus points if anyone can guess what Final I am studying for right now)

On a side note, I think it is awesome that C&A is going into such depth over a rule interpretation, and has given such clear guidelines and explanations. Bravo!

[Empress Wu]

There's one further problem with the translating business here. In order to translate Japanese to English using an online translator, you would need to have the Japanese text in national Japanese characters. Short of that, you won't be able to translate it online.

As a non-native English speaker, I would say that if the rules don't already state that you should speak a language comprehensible to all players in the game - then the rules should be changed. If we had this requirement, the problem - and this thread - might have been avoided in the first place.

[Mitsuko]

As for king sam, flaming, trolling, whatever lame excuse you want to use for catering to this wailing child, feel free to ban me. I'm not sure what country this is based off of, however I do know how tort law works in reference to purchasing something like this. Less than a week after a purchase, if you do revoke my premium access, you will not be keeping your measly 25 dollars. Of that I promise.

Uh, no, you don't know what you are talking about. CC can, in fact, revoke your membership. By signing up you acknowledged the terms of service. Short of going into the detailed legal discussion of legal issues, don't you think this would have come up before with other members?

Also, this has nothing to do with Torts, this would be in the large area of law referred to as Contracts law.

(Bonus points if anyone can guess what Final I am studying for right now)

On a side note, I think it is awesome that C&A is going into such depth over a rule interpretation, and has given such clear guidelines and explanations. Bravo!

Yeah, see there's "college" and working and living in the real world. You pay with a "credit card." A week later your purchase is revoke. A week and a day later, you dispute the charge with your credit card company. I work with a credit card company. They refund the payment, and leave the two parties to resolve the claim.

[SuicidalSnowman]

Yeah, see there's "college" and working and living in the real world. You pay with a "credit card." A week later your purchase is revoke. A week and a day later, you dispute the charge with your credit card company. I work with a credit card company. They refund the payment, and leave the two parties to resolve the claim.

Ahh, well that seems like a good way to resolve it. But I still stand that there is no cause of action here.