Re: WWI: Gallipoli [9.9.15] V39 (p22) [Quenched]

[cairnswk]

the graphics require some work on mountains and ridges

i'd say the graphics require some work on everything. a fresh start would probably be best.
this map looked mediocre for 2009.
3 years have passed since then. i'm sure 2009's mediocre graphics surely won't be sufficient for 2012.

you are of course entitled to your opinion, i happen again to disgree with you as usual.
at least i may be able to work some decent mountains and ridges in PS now

[DiM]

the graphics require some work on mountains and ridges

i'd say the graphics require some work on everything. a fresh start would probably be best.
this map looked mediocre for 2009.
3 years have passed since then. i'm sure 2009's mediocre graphics surely won't be sufficient for 2012.

you are of course entitled to your opinion, i happen again to disgree with you as usual.
at least i may be able to work some decent mountains and ridges in PS now

so you're telling me you honestly believe this latest version is up to par with the current graphic standards?

and by current graphic standards i mean:
http://wcforums.org/AfricaFiles/africa.L.png
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/1328/scourt2v16img.png
http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7303/nam8.png

oh well, if that's the case then i guess i can dig up some of my old maps. termitarium could work. i'll just work on some ridges and off to beta with it.

[cairnswk]

One of the notes i had made to self back then, was to insert Ari Burni as a territory. Ari Burni, is the point at the north end of Anzac Cove. I simply don't think there is enough space to do this.
From the perspective the map is already at its required small size, i don't want to increase it to supersize.

[Nola_Lifer]

One of the notes i had made to self back then, was to insert Ari Burni as a territory. Ari Burni, is the point at the north end of Anzac Cove. I simply don't think there is enough space to do this.
From the perspective the map is already at its required small size, i don't want to increase it to supersize.

Is this historically important or game play important?

[cairnswk]

One of the notes i had made to self back then, was to insert Ari Burni as a territory. Ari Burni, is the point at the north end of Anzac Cove. I simply don't think there is enough space to do this.
From the perspective the map is already at its required small size, i don't want to increase it to supersize.

Is this historically important or game play important?

it was historically important and i think someone wanted it as it was the site of the Dawn service until 2000 and it is the site of a cemetary.

There are many areas that are gameplay and historically important but not all can be included obviously because of space.
The design of the map was to include the Anzac section but to give an overall gameplay scenario for the invasion of the Peninsula...thus players have an opportunity to do the reverse of what the historical outcome was.

[cairnswk]

An update V19.

1. New Losing condition - Players failing to hold non-battleship territory will be eliminated.
This allows battleships to use their starting numbers for invasion, but since the Turks could not reach them with battery fire from shore, it keeps them in play, but demands that players can be eliminated without them anyway.
2. Moved some connections around for the battleships to landing craft.

To do for gameplay:
1. add some shore batteries i.e. at Gaba Tepe
2. ensure gameplay numbers are good

[thenobodies80]

2 quick questions:

1. Landing Beaches can only bombard landing craft? if yes you have to change your connections between battleships and land because one way attacks have a different arrow.
2. The objective: all land territories. Really? I think it's impossible! If I'm able to hold all those regions I shold have the power to annihilate the opponent in other ways...i think no one will try that objective.

oh, btw...last question do you want this one moved back or it's just "testing ground"?

Nobodies

[cairnswk]

2 quick questions:

1. Landing Beaches can only bombard landing craft? if yes you have to change your connections between battleships and land because one way attacks have a different arrow.

Yes. i'll change that line to reflect one-way arrow

2. The objective: all land territories. Really? I think it's impossible! If I'm able to hold all those regions I shold have the power to annihilate the opponent in other ways...i think no one will try that objective.

OK, good point. i'll remove that... and see if anyone has any other option for an objective, or if we need one at all.

oh, btw...last question do you want this one moved back or it's just "testing ground"?
Nobodies

yes please move this back.

And while i am at it...a question...since the foundry is really slow at present from the lack of movement in FF -> Beta, do you think it would be appropriate to extend the update period from one month to two months?

[isaiah40]

[Moved] due to an update being made! Welcome back cairns!!

As for the update time frame, that'll be a tnb question.

[cairnswk]

[Moved] due to an update being made! Welcome back cairns!!

As for the update time frame, that'll be a tnb question.

thanks isaiah40.

[Gillipig]

This can be the maps theme song:


Rock + History = Magic

This looks like a promising theme.

[cairnswk]

Well. pls keep on topic Gillipig, thanks

[cairnswk]

Version 20
1. one-way arrows have been fixed as requested by tnb80
2. objective removed as requested by tnb80
3. Kumkali has been split in two - reason: there was a gun battery at Kumkali that bombarded the opposite Helles shore...this is now inserted and marked on map and legend...this will now be one of the starting points.
4. KK Beach is the other resulting landing territory.
5. Land Batteries have been added to Gaba Tepe and Gendarmerie and appropriate target positions on land and the landing vessels from Anzac Cove north are included in these targets.
6. Some re-organisation of the legend has taken place, including moving the Losing Condition to the top under the story where it is more visisble to start.
7. Some texture has been added to the legend.

[nolefan5311]

For the Land Batteries...is the Kum Kali battery supposed to be able to bombard say, the A Landing Beach? If not, I think you need to indicate some sort of range attack for these. Same for the battleships, but I assume you want any battleship to be able to bombard all the marked territories, no matter if it's on the other side of the map. Perhaps you should make these targets more distinguishable...change the actual color of the region or something? Since the battleships are so important, distinguishing the regions that they bombard a little more clearly would seem to jive with theme of the map. The targets tend to be a little confusing, especially with the map being so small.

Are the starting positions on the land associated with any particular battleship, or are they deployed completely randomly from the battleships you own? Nothing leads to me to believe they are associated, I was just curious.

Does Krithia village directly border Madios village? The legend indicates that villages border each other via the roads, but there is also an army circle sitting on the road in the Seri Tepe Ridge region which could lead to confusion.

The border between Kavak Tepe and Anafarta Sagir is hard to make out.

Do the Land Batteries also have normal land assault borders similar to the Forts? If not, I think it could be slightly disadvantageous having one of those as a starting position.

Have you thought about having M3 border more than just one MS ship? I'm not sure if you wanted a chokepoint directly after a killer neutral. Maybe just change the assault route to two assault routes: M3 > MS6 > MS8 and M3 > MS7 > MS9.

The Convoy Landing Ships mentioned in the legend, are those the "L" ships? I think some clarification needs to be made there.

I only count 14 starting positions on land (from north to south): Gendarmarie, Gelibolu III Corp, 3rd RIdge, Krithia, Feshkesh, F1, Saraijik, Sari Saglar Beach, Cephez Pt., Kizil-chilali, Erinkeul, Dumbrek, Kum Kali. I can't tell if Gaba Tepe is a starting position or not because it looks like there are two numbers there. If it is, that's still only 15. Doesn't seem consistent as each player in an 8 player game is going to be deployed one Battleship, it's associated L ship, and an L ship in the bottom of the map.

It's a +1 for each land territory position held, but it's also a -1 for each Landing Beach region. Maybe instead of saying that they lose one per round (which they won't, they will just maintain the troops that are already there), indicate they are not included in the Land Bonus or something?

What do you think?

[cairnswk]

Sorry for the delay in answering nolefan5311, but have been busy with other projects and uni.

For the Land Batteries...is the Kum Kali battery supposed to be able to bombard say, the A Landing Beach? If not, I think you need to indicate some sort of range attack for these.

I have adjusted those to two different colours to indicate the range.

Same for the battleships, but I assume you want any battleship to be able to bombard all the marked territories, no matter if it's on the other side of the map. Perhaps you should make these targets more distinguishable...change the actual color of the region or something? Since the battleships are so important, distinguishing the regions that they bombard a little more clearly would seem to jive with theme of the map. The targets tend to be a little confusing, especially with the map being so small.

Battleships had quite more firepower than the Turkish land batteries, that is why they could bombard all over the peninsula.

Are the starting positions on the land associated with any particular battleship, or are they deployed completely randomly from the battleships you own? Nothing leads to me to believe they are associated, I was just curious.

No, every deployment is per the natural drop.

Does Krithia village directly border Madios village? The legend indicates that villages border each other via the roads, but there is also an army circle sitting on the road in the Seri Tepe Ridge region which could lead to confusion.

Army circle moved.

The border between Kavak Tepe and Anafarta Sagir is hard to make out.

Mmm, OK...i'll have to sort out something there.

Do the Land Batteries also have normal land assault borders similar to the Forts? If not, I think it could be slightly disadvantageous having one of those as a starting position.

yes, the land batteries are to be starters, and have normal borders...fixed in legend

Have you thought about having M3 border more than just one MS ship? I'm not sure if you wanted a chokepoint directly after a killer neutral. Maybe just change the assault route to two assault routes: M3 > MS6 > MS8 and M3 > MS7 > MS9.

yes, i had thought of that, but don't like removing the MS7 to Chanake Kale as this was a major assault point (that never came off anyways)
Changed on next version so that M3 assaults both MS7 and MS6

The Convoy Landing Ships mentioned in the legend, are those the "L" ships? I think some clarification needs to be made there.

Fixed.

I only count 14 starting positions on land (from north to south): Gendarmarie, Gelibolu III Corp, 3rd RIdge, Krithia, Feshkesh, F1, Saraijik, Sari Saglar Beach, Cephez Pt., Kizil-chilali, Erinkeul, Dumbrek, Kum Kali. I can't tell if Gaba Tepe is a starting position or not because it looks like there are two numbers there. If it is, that's still only 15. Doesn't seem consistent as each player in an 8 player game is going to be deployed one Battleship, it's associated L ship, and an L ship in the bottom of the map.

Fixed, there are now 16 land starts - although these may need to be moved with further analysis.
There are now:
* 8 BSs
* 13 Landings vessels and 3 MS positions
* 16 turkish land positions.

It's a +1 for each land territory position held, but it's also a -1 for each Landing Beach region. Maybe instead of saying that they lose one per round (which they won't, they will just maintain the troops that are already there), indicate they are not included in the Land Bonus or something?

the -1 for landing beach notation has been removed.
Mmmm, i'll have to think about removing the +1 bonus autodeploy.
i wanted to simulate the invasion, and it's up to the opponent to bombard the landing ships to stop the invasion.

What do you think?

That's what i think ^^ !

[cairnswk]

Version 21
I've allocated another 20 pixels on the left to give some eye space to the congested battleships and landing craft positions.
Much neater now, and still only going to be 650px W x 600h.

show: Starts

[cairnswk]

no comments on this one
no even from the CAs

[sannemanrobinson]

The first 15 minutes looking at the map I understood the losing condition when losing all battle ships. Idea for a new phrase: losing condition - Retreat to the battleships will lose the game.

This might give some confusion as well as there is no forting possible to the battleships. Alternative: Players who hold battleships(s) only are out of the game.

Is the Blue line between Bigale and Madios a road?

[cairnswk]

...
Is the Blue line between Bigale and Madios a road?

Yes

[Oneyed]

nice map. I like sun-rise.
I am also impessed how much items you implemented to map.

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road. the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.
border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).
what are MS1, MS2, MS3 and so on? and from where is possible to attack them?
also what with L2, L3, L4, L5, L6? I see possibility to bombard them, but no attack them.

Oneyed

[cairnswk]

Oneyed wrote:nice map. I like sun-rise.
I am also impessed how much items you implemented to map.


sunrise, yes it's a major design element to represent the time of day
and yes, historical elements have to play an important role.

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road.
the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.


Yes

border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).


yes they can be fixed

what are MS1, MS2, MS3 and so on? and from where is possible to attack them?


MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

also what with L2, L3, L4, L5, L6? I see possibility to bombard them, but no attack them.
Oneyed


L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities
Image
* Spanish Armada * New Zealand * CC: Sydney * CC: Pot Mosbi

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Sergeant cairnswk

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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [12.7.12] v21-P13 Gameplay

Postby Oneyed on Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:10 pm

cairnswk wrote:MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows



I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

cairnswk wrote:L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities



most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?

maybe I read map wrong and therefore are these things not clear just for me?

Oneyed

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Sergeant 1st Class Oneyed

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Re: WWI: Gallipoli [12.7.12] v21-P13 Gameplay

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:37 pm

Oneyed wrote:

cairnswk wrote:MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows


I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.


as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities


most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?...
Oneyed

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

[Oneyed]

MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities

most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?

maybe I read map wrong and therefore are these things not clear just for me?

Oneyed

[cairnswk]

MS are mine sweepers...
refer to Forts for the bombardments in the Dardenelles and Narrows

I can not see any way how to attack MS1, MS2, MS3.

as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

L = landing craft
that's correct..the turks only had bombardment capabilities

most of "L" is possible to attack from battle ships. but L2,L3, L4, L5, L6 is not possible to attack. when I read map correctly the battle ships will be starting positions. so also L2 - L6 will be starting positions?...
Oneyed

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

[cairnswk]

could you change something on the road between Madios and Bigali? for me it also looks unclear that it is road.
the main problem is Kehlia Beach name which cover road junction between dark and light area.

Yes

I have widened the road, changde the colour, and moved the name and army circle so that it is more visisble
pls refresh v21 above.

border between Kojadere and Chunuk Bair is not clear. the borders on the junction betwen dark and light area are somewhere hard visible (Kavak Tepe, Gendarmarie, Tepe, Anafarta Sagir, Biylak Anaka, Monash Gully, Chunuk Bair).

yes they can be fixed

You'll have to wait a bit for this one...uni calls...and these changes involve significant improvements to the mountains as borders in these regions so they can be made clearer for you

[Oneyed]

as such they are not assualtable...but you can bombard them (to neutral) from the forts

Yes. L2-L6 will be starting positions.
there are various combinations of starting positions which include battleships, landing craft, mine sweepers and land positions
pls note where the coloured numbers are for the starting positions.

now it is clear. thanks

I have widened the road, changde the colour, and moved the name and army circle so that it is more visisble
pls refresh v21 above.

now it looks fine. the updated version looks as "washed". to be honest I more like version without numbers. or maybe something between these two would looks nice?

You'll have to wait a bit for this one...uni calls...and these changes involve significant improvements to the mountains as borders in these regions so they can be made clearer for you

looking forward .

nice work. as ususal from you

Oneyed