The Balkan Peninsula [FF] --Feb 2nd 2010--

[ZeakCytho]

good job there zeak.
I like your legend more then qwert's but it can be confusing for people that don't know Balkans as I do. So, I think he is right.

Okay, I'm still trying to think of a good way to have the legend area separate from the main map. I need a border or something...

Thanks for croatian names and for new border between Slavonija and Središnja Hrvatska. Now it's really good.

You're welcome

I think it's clear that dubrovnik it's part of Croatia but there's a little mistake in drawing cuz this island near bosnian border isn't island but peninsula. If u will have time u can change it, but it's not huge mistake and don't effect gameplay. my opinion is that u can change it cuz Dubrovnik will be then bigger.
I agree with u when we're talking about bridges, they can be better.

I turned the island into a peninsula (the geography is not 100% accurate, but it's not terrible), as well as redoing the attack line to be more obvious.

I was thinking about splitting Bosnia but it will be very difficult to do that. Situation like it is now it's maybe the best way to do. Other idea is to split BiH also in two territories, first will be Bosnia and other Hercegovina but u decide.

Yeah, we might just have to leave things as they are now. I'm trying to think of where I can get an extra 4 territories from...

there's one more thing about the names. Styria is a state or Bundesland, located in the southeast of Austria and in the north Slovenia. so it's the name for some parts of Austria and some parts of Slovenia. In slovenian language the name will be Štajerska. So if u want u can change it. The same thing is with Carniola - in slovenia it is called Kranj or Kranjska.

Done
As always, thanks for your many comments!

Other thoughts on where I can get another 4 territories from, guys? I could probably enlarge Romania or Greece or Bulgaria, but these are already large, hard to hold continents. Would making them larger really be good for gameplay? As of right now, 4p games still start with 12 territories each, which is not good. This gets fixed at 52 territories...maybe we should shoot for 52 instead of 54? This will have more neutrals, but is probably more attainable.

[InkL0sed]

I still don't like the bridges, and no it isn't clear that Dubrovnik borders Dalmacija. On the other hand, why should it?

[ZeakCytho]

I still don't like the bridges, and no it isn't clear that Dubrovnik borders Dalmacija. On the other hand, why should it?

So Croatia is a contiguous continent. Gameplay-wise, it's always awkward when you have pieces of continents that don't connect to the rest of the continent. The connection is much more obvious in my new version, anyway. I'm working on the bridges and title now...they need lots of work.

[RjBeals]

Nice work Zeak. I'm just going to throw a couple of random comments at you:

1) I do not like how this map is long (length) rather than wide.
2) I do not like the legend, at all. I don't like the darkness behind it - it clashes with the softness of the map. I don't like the font or the stroke on it (in the legend). I I think it's a bit hard to match the bonus regions to the actual map.
3) I think the diagonal stripes on Kosovo look a bit strange.
4) I love the texture to the map.
5) I also love the color scheme. The purple may be just a bit out of place, but overall - nice choice of colors.
6) The Title looks nice. My only suggestion would be to brighten it up a bit. It's kind of dark now.
7) The bridges look okay, but I think they would look better with a curve to them.
Your territ font is okay. Nice and bold. But I like the darker font (upper left area) rather than the lighter (upper right area).
9) Your ocean looks great. Keep it as is.
10) Would you be willing to try to put a little shadow on your mountains? Like I did to Centerscape? You don't have to, but it might help.

Again - Nice job on the overall map. It's a beauty.

[InkL0sed]

I agree that the legend is still as sucky as ever. I like the look of Kosovo, though.

And, concerning Croatia's contiguousness - I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have a continent broken up; it'd just be a quirk you don't normally get on maps. It'd probably be fitting on a map of the Balkans, a region that's breaking down into smaller and smaller states and is hardly contiguous at all in terms of ethnicity.

[ZeakCytho]

1) I do not like how this map is long (length) rather than wide.

Yeah, but there's no other way to fit the shape of the region. I mean, I could add in dead space to make it more square, but what's the point of that?

2) I do not like the legend, at all. I don't like the darkness behind it - it clashes with the softness of the map. I don't like the font or the stroke on it (in the legend). I I think it's a bit hard to match the bonus regions to the actual map.

Yeah, I agree. The general plan is to redo the legend once I have a decent idea of something better to do. Same with the title.

3) I think the diagonal stripes on Kosovo look a bit strange.

You think they're too thick? Or that they're unnecessary altogether?

4) I love the texture to the map.
5) I also love the color scheme. The purple may be just a bit out of place, but overall - nice choice of colors.

Thanks

6) The Title looks nice. My only suggestion would be to brighten it up a bit. It's kind of dark now.

I can try. I don't like the title very much, personally. But if other people like it, I can keep it. It'll be brighter for the next version

7) The bridges look okay, but I think they would look better with a curve to them.

They were curved originally (see version...4? Maybe 5?), but I think the curve was too much. I'll curve them slightly for the next version, but not as much as they were before

8) Your territ font is okay. Nice and bold. But I like the darker font (upper left area) rather than the lighter (upper right area).

Odd, the font is the same everywhere. I must have a different anti-aliasing option checked by accident or something. I agree that the bolder part looks better - I'll double check my settings and make the font more uniform

9) Your ocean looks great. Keep it as is.

Thanks!

10) Would you be willing to try to put a little shadow on your mountains? Like I did to Centerscape? You don't have to, but it might help.

I'll try - could you tell me how you got the shadow effect on your Centerscape mountains? Was it just hand drawn?

Again - Nice job on the overall map. It's a beauty.

Thanks, and thanks for all the comments!

I agree that the legend is still as sucky as ever. I like the look of Kosovo, though.

Yup, the legend is awful
I'm thinking I'll make the Kosovo stripes a bit thinner - maybe 16px instead of 20px each (on the double size psd, that is)

And, concerning Croatia's contiguousness - I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to have a continent broken up; it'd just be a quirk you don't normally get on maps. It'd probably be fitting on a map of the Balkans, a region that's breaking down into smaller and smaller states and is hardly contiguous at all in terms of ethnicity.

I'm pretty indifferent on this issue. I'm inclined to go with whatever works out better bonus-wise after we decide on the final number of territories.

[freakns]

first of all, let me tell you, nice idea ZeakCytho

also, i havent gone through whole thread so some of my ideas might already been mentioned, so please dont be mad or offended if i stated something youve already answered

ill comment on former Yugoslavia part of the map as this is something i am familiar with.

1. Slovenia
1a) you should add at least one more territory. having any kind of bonus with holding only 2 connected territories isnt the best scenario, IMHO
1b) Carniola should be connected with Istra

2. Croatia
you might add separated bonuses for holding Croatia with or without Dubrovnik. for example, holding Croatia without Dubrovnik is worth +3 and with Dubrovnik is worth +4

3) BiH
2 territories isnt enough. you should make at least 4 of them. for example, change FBiH in two regions, Western Hercegovina the southern part and canton of Sarajevo the northern part. also, change republika Srpska into two parts, Istocna Hercegovina the southern and norther part called Bosanska Krajina.

4) Montenegro
4a) Niksic should be renamed in Cetinje or Lovcen, shortened and shouldnt have borders with Albania
4b) Podgorica should be splited in two, upper part would be called Podgorica and would take the shortened, eastern part of current Niksic and thus take borders with both Serbia and Albania. the bottom part could be called Boka-Kotorska and wouldnt have borders with Albanai because of lake Skadar.

5) Macedonia
perfectly done

6) Serbia
khm
6a) Zajecar should be called Timocka Krajina or Negotinska Krajina as those are the native names of two regions resident in that part of the map
6b) Zlativor should be renamed in Raska. this should be mandatory, IMO
6c) there is much more sense in connecting Vojvodina with Sumadija and not with Zajecar because connection with Sumadija goes through Belgrade itself. in RL, when im traveling to Zajecar or Nisava parts, im traveling through Sumadija(im from Novi Sad, capitol of Vojvodina and city which resident in heart of Vojvodina).
6d) Kosovo is still part of Serbia and should not held its own bonus


those are just some ideas... if you have any questions, please ask

ps. im just trying to be constructive, not offensive in any way

[DimnjacarStef]

I want to say something about Dubrovnik. It's part of croatia and it must be connected with croatia like u draw. Freakns suggest option that holding Croatia without Dubrovnik is worth +3 and with Dubrovnik is worth +4. I don't like this idea. It's unique country and bonus must be unique (+3 like u suggest). Also, I like Slovenia like it is now, +1 is ok. There are several maps with such a bonuses.

Freakns I agree with u about Bosnia but maybe it's to complicated to do that. I like your idea but how can u split FBiH into western Hercegovina and Sarajevo when almost half of northern part of FBiH is Bosnia and not Hercegovina. My idea is to split BiH also into 4 territories but zeak will maybe have a lot of problems to do that cuz there r no much room to do that, Bosnia is to small. But if he can do that, my suggestion will be: 1st territory - northern part of Fbih and northern part of Republika srpska called Bosna, 2nd - southern part of of FbiH called Western Hercegovina, 3rd - Sarajevo, and 4th - eastern Hercegovina. There are lot of options to split bosnia (for example:3 parts by ethnic population), and I'm not forcing anything. Maybe the best way is to do it like it is now.

I think freakns nows better Serbia and montenegro then me so...

[freakns]

Stef, i wouldnt say Bosnia is too small. its almost as big as Croatia. but i do agree calling all the lower part of current FBiH Zapadna Hercegovina would be wrong as all the territories from Livno to Bihac are everything but Hercegovina

i do like your idea how to split it if Zeak can do it, he should do it

as for Dubrovnik, it was just an idea, but i do understand how Croatian might felt because of it now that youve mention, so its better not to mess with it and leave it like it was

once more, Kosovo should not, under no circumstances be isolated from Serbia at any way. at least until UN recognize it state. until then its part of Serbia and should be treated that way

[Qwert]

DimnjacarStef (bosnia and hercegovina)
Maybe the best way is to do it like it is now.

Totaly correct,no need to experiment with these country,its ok to stay like now.

[zeros]

Trying to make an acceptable map of this area is a courageous task! There is such passion about how borders should be drawn that if you manage to get agreement, you should become a politician! -Good luck!

[gimil]

Moldovas name is overlapping the continent a little. Fancy moving it right a little? Maybe move moldova's border to exaggerate a little to fit it?

Sharp work zeak, came on a whole bunch since i last visted!

[ZeakCytho]

I've been pretty busy with schoolwork lately, but my midterms are all over after today. I'll post a big extensive reply to all the recent comments sometime tonight.

Thanks for commenting everyone!

[I GOT SERVED]

I personally would like to see Moldova added in this map...that would be nice. Also, Shkoder border Pelagonia? I don't think so, but I would like for that to be clarified a bit.

[ZeakCytho]

Okay, I finally have enough free time to address all the comments. You guys sure left a lot

first of all, let me tell you, nice idea ZeakCytho

also, i havent gone through whole thread so some of my ideas might already been mentioned, so please dont be mad or offended if i stated something youve already answered

Thanks! I won't be offended

1. Slovenia
1a) you should add at least one more territory. having any kind of bonus with holding only 2 connected territories isnt the best scenario, IMHO
1b) Carniola should be connected with Istra

This map has a lot of small bonuses, and there isn't a ton of room in Slovenia. I think 2 territories, 1 border is good enough for a +1, especially considering there's another identical continent (Turkey) and a 1 terr/+1 bonus (Kosovo) - the +1s are easy enough to get.
The mountains between Istra and Carniola exist to reduce the number of borders on Croatia. If they connected, it would be much harder to hold Croatia.

2. Croatia
you might add separated bonuses for holding Croatia with or without Dubrovnik. for example, holding Croatia without Dubrovnik is worth +3 and with Dubrovnik is worth +4

I'm against splitting countries like this, and given what DimnjacarStef pointed out, I think I'll keep Croatia whole.

3) BiH
...

I'm gonna address all the BiH comments at the bottom of this post, cause there are a lot of them.

4) Montenegro
4a) Niksic should be renamed in Cetinje or Lovcen, shortened and shouldnt have borders with Albania
4b) Podgorica should be splited in two, upper part would be called Podgorica and would take the shortened, eastern part of current Niksic and thus take borders with both Serbia and Albania. the bottom part could be called Boka-Kotorska and wouldnt have borders with Albanai because of lake Skadar.

I can try, but I don't think I can fit three territories in Montenegro. If I had to stick to two, which two do you suggest I use (in terms of names and where the borders are)?

5) Macedonia
perfectly done

I aim to please

6) Serbia
khm
6a) Zajecar should be called Timocka Krajina or Negotinska Krajina as those are the native names of two regions resident in that part of the map
6b) Zlativor should be renamed in Raska. this should be mandatory, IMO
6c) there is much more sense in connecting Vojvodina with Sumadija and not with Zajecar because connection with Sumadija goes through Belgrade itself. in RL, when im traveling to Zajecar or Nisava parts, im traveling through Sumadija(im from Novi Sad, capitol of Vojvodina and city which resident in heart of Vojvodina).
6d) Kosovo is still part of Serbia and should not held its own bonus

The names I'm using are ones that qwert, another resident of Vojvodina, suggested I use. I'm happy to rename them, I just want to make sure the new names are the most accurate.
I will move the bridge from Suadija instead of Zajecar
Kosovo will keep its own bonus, but it is also part of the Serbia bonus. I think this is the most fair way to handle the situation. Since it has not been recognized by the UN, it will not be its own continent, but since it is recognized by numerous countries, it will have a bonus associated with it. As I see it, someone will complain no matter what I do, so I'm sticking to what I see as the most balanced solution.

those are just some ideas... if you have any questions, please ask

ps. im just trying to be constructive, not offensive in any way

Thanks again!

Numerous BiH comments too long to quote here

Having messed around with the area, I am of the opinion that the current split is, sadly, the best way to do it. I'd really like to have more territories in there, but there is just no way to do it and keep everything legible. The names are too long and some of the regions too small to hold a name and an army shadow. So, as Dimnjacar said, "Maybe the best way is to do it like it is now."

Trying to make an acceptable map of this area is a courageous task! There is such passion about how borders should be drawn that if you manage to get agreement, you should become a politician! -Good luck!

Hahaha, thanks! I think we're doing a pretty good job so far - no major fights breaking out in the threat yet

Moldovas name is overlapping the continent a little. Fancy moving it right a little? Maybe move moldova's border to exaggerate a little to fit it?

Sharp work zeak, came on a whole bunch since i last visted!

Sure thing Gimil. And thanks!

I personally would like to see Moldova added in this map...that would be nice. Also, Shkoder border Pelagonia? I don't think so, but I would like for that to be clarified a bit.

By most standards, Moldova is not considered part of the Balkan Peninsula. Really, half of Romania isn't part of the Peninsula either, but I wasn't going to go add half a country. I think things will be simpler if I leave Moldova out.
Shkodor does border Pelagonia - there are no mountains in the way. I'm not sure how unclear this is

So, big drumroll, the new
To Do List:

• Territory Names to Change
  
  • Styria -> Štajerska
  • Carniola -> Kranjska
  • Various parts of Montenegro?
  • Various parts of Serbia?
• Major graphical things to change/pains in my ass
  
  • The Title
  • The Minimap
  • The Bridges
• Minor Things to Change
  
  • Make island off the coast of Dubrovnik a peninsula
  • Make the Kosovo Stripes slightly thinner
  • Shade in the mountains slightly
  • Make the font more uniform (the settings are the same everywhere, but for some reason it was darker in some regions than others. I messed with the outer glow colors to fix this; it should be good now)
  • Bridge to Sumadija instead of Zajecar

I think that list is fairly comprehensive. I need a final list of the changes to make to the names in Montenegro and Serbia, as well as other thoughts on where I can add 4 more territories to. Maybe I can split Trakya in two? Or parts of Bulgaria or Romania?

Right now I would prefer it if people would stop giving me minor graphical tweaks (or major ones, e.g. legend, title, bridges) and focus more on the territory layout/borders/names/etc. Once this is down we can do a gameplay discussion. After that we can work on graphics. The Title, Legend, and bridges will stay on my to do list, but I won't get around to fixing them for a while, mostly because I have no idea where to start on a theme for them. They will be fixed before quenching, so please stop mentioning them (unless you have a suggestion for how to make the better).

P.S. It took me just under an hour to construct this post - thanks for the ridiculous amounts of comments you guys have been leaving!

[freakns]

first, i have to say im sad because of Kosovo, but this is your map so i can do nothing but agree on your idea and hope that those numerous countries will understand their mistake and that we all will live freely and friendly in our country... and this will change this map then

ok, for the names and suggestions.

Montenegro split in two:
split it as eastern and western part. eastern part should be named Podgorica and have borders with Serbia and Albania. western part should be named Cetinje and have borders with BiH and Serbia.
disclaimer: this way, Montenegro will have two territories, both have boarders with two other continents and Montenegro would have borders with 3 continents in total. Slovenia would have also two territories, but only one of them would have international bonus and only with one continent. both continents would have +1 bonus. this doesnt seems fair :s

Serbia:
Zlatibor->Raška
-Zlatibor is mountain in that part of Serbia. Raška however is name of the region, also the first Serbian country, created in 7th century and held that name until 14th century and rise of Emperor Dušan

Sumadija->Šumadija
-if you are going to use native letters, then its Šumadija(pronounced Shumadija)

Zajecar->Negotinska Krajina
-Zajecar and Negotin are two largers town in that area, but the biggest part of area is called Negotinska Krajina

Nisava->Nišava
-again, native letters. Nišava is name of the river going through that part

Vojvodina->Vojvodina
-completely correct

[ZeakCytho]

Okay, then, here's the revised To Do List

To Do List:

• Territory Names/Borders to Change
  
  • Styria -> Štajerska
  • Carniola -> Kranjska
  • Resplit Montenegro
    
    • Podgorica borders Serbia and Albania
    • Cetinje borders BiH and Serbia
  • Zlatibor -> Raška
  • Sumadija -> Šumadija
  • Zajecar -> Negotinska Krajina
  • Nisava -> Nišava
• Major graphical things to change/pains in my ass
  
  • The Title
  • The Minimap
  • The Bridges
• Minor Things to Change
  
  • Make island off the coast of Dubrovnik a peninsula
  • Make the Kosovo Stripes slightly thinner
  • Shade in the mountains slightly
  • Make the font more uniform (the settings are the same everywhere, but for some reason it was darker in some regions than others. I messed with the outer glow colors to fix this; it should be good now)
  • Bridge to Sumadija instead of Zajecar

[Qwert]

Montenegro split in two:
split it as eastern and western part. eastern part should be named Podgorica and have borders with Serbia and Albania. western part should be named Cetinje and have borders with BiH and Serbia.

From mine geography knowlege,i think that montenegro also have borders with croatia,or maybe im forget something?

[ZeakCytho]

Montenegro split in two:
split it as eastern and western part. eastern part should be named Podgorica and have borders with Serbia and Albania. western part should be named Cetinje and have borders with BiH and Serbia.

From mine geography knowlege,i think that montenegro also have borders with croatia,or maybe im forget something?

Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that Cetinje would border Dubrovnik (Croatia). Good catch

[Qwert]

well im standing in a shadow,and observe situation

[sailorseal]

Graphically it is kind of dark. The assault routes are kind of dull looking and at first glance I did not notice them. I like the colors and the mountains.The bridges should be changed. The line of text at the way bottom is very hard to read.
Nice map!

[ZeakCytho]

Graphically it is kind of dark. The assault routes are kind of dull looking and at first glance I did not notice them. I like the colors and the mountains.The bridges should be changed. The line of text at the way bottom is very hard to read.
Nice map!

Yes, it is dark, but I don't think overly so. The assault routes could be brightened...but does anyone else have this problem? I'd rather not make them too bright. And I specifically asked people not to comment on the bridges and legend...read the last few pages before posting, please.

Here's version 11, since the comments dried up. A lot of the changes on the to do list are done, mostly with respect to renaming territories and redrawing borders and stuff. I still need a way to fit at least 2 more territories in, so 4 player games don't start with 12 territories each. 54 would be a better number, but I'll compromise on 52 if there's no way we can fit more in.

Click image to enlarge.

To Do List:

• Major graphical things to change/pains in my ass
  
  • The Title
  • The Minimap
  • Font stroke/outer glow (I noticed it doesn't carry over when I resize down...)
  • The Bridges

So...where do I get another 4 territories to stuff this map with? If no one from the region can come up with a workable suggestion (can't split Bosnia or Montenegro or Slovenia any further, or Macedonia, Croatia or Albania for that matter, though no one has suggested those). That leaves Greece, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey (I might be able to split Trakya in two).

[DimnjacarStef]

once more, good job.

My idea about adding some territorries: Greece can have one more territorrie, u can add kyklades as it is on ancient greece map,and split trakya into 2 territorries.

[the.killing.44]

I think the dark is what makes the map … anyway maybe an outer glow on the assault lines? You had something like that before, but maybe a kind more precise to really accent the glow. As for more territories: I can't really help you with names but Moldavia could be split into two (North M. and South M.?) as well as C. Macedonia perhaps? I'm not really sure how obvious the stripes are, but they should be fine. Seeing with 88s would help.

Great job,
.44

[ZeakCytho]

once more, good job.

My idea about adding some territorries: Greece can have one more territorrie, u can add kyklades as it is on ancient greece map,and split trakya into 2 territorries.

Thanks for the comments, as always. I think I'll add the Kyklades as a territory tht connects to Attica and Crete, and remove the Attica-Crete connection. I'll make Trakya two territories - Kirklareli in the north and Tekirdağ in the south.

I think the dark is what makes the map … anyway maybe an outer glow on the assault lines? You had something like that before, but maybe a kind more precise to really accent the glow. As for more territories: I can't really help you with names but Moldavia could be split into two (North M. and South M.?) as well as C. Macedonia perhaps? I'm not really sure how obvious the stripes are, but they should be fine. Seeing with 88s would help.

I'm not sure how accurate splitting Moldavia or Central Macedonia would be. There is an outer glow on the assault lines currently. I can make it a bit stronger, though. I won't bother doing an image with 88s until after the gameplay stamp.

So, the major changes for the next version are the new territories - Kyklades, Kirklareli, and Tekirdağ. Anything else, with respect to territories or gameplay?