Greater China [Quenched] (thanks Widowmakers)

[KEYOGI]

Playability looks pretty good, I'm a fan of smaller maps. I think Lanzhou could really use another border though.. Qinghai/Sichuan? Also, is the sea route absolutely necessary between Hainan and Taiwan?

Graphically, there are a few things that I think could be improved. That ocean just doesn't sit right with me. If you're going to stick with that texture, I'd tone it right down so it's barely visible. Making it softer will make it fit with the rest of the map. Also, your rivers seem to drop off the edge of the map because of the way the land meets the ocean. I like the style of the rivers themselves, but could you fix where they join? It looks a bit odd having that line on the edge of one seperating them.

I'm not a fan of the textures for the continents or the unplayalbe part of the board. It's not a huge issue though.

I don't mind the wall, but it just doesn't seem to look right to me. Maybe it's too twisty and kinked. If you can straighten out some of the smaller kinks it might look more like a wall.

I'm really not a fan of the mountains. The effect you have is ok, but they don't seem overly clear to me and I think could be easily overlooked. Perhaps just try a different colour there to make a distinct difference between mountains and territories so it's clear that it's unpassable.

The legend is a bit hard on the eyes, maybe just doing something as simple as changing the background colour would fix this. A darker colour? Also I think the way the bonus for holding Hebei, Jiangsu and Guangdon is confusing. It should at least follow the same format as the continent bonuses IMO. And that 2 looks like a Z.

Last thing! Those bridges, I'd lose the stripes and just have them one colour.

Oh, and to get your coordinates in Photoshop. Make up a circle on a new layer the same size as your army shadows and put a dot in the middle of it. Move this circle over each shadow and place your cursor over the dot to get your coordinate in the info panel. You'll need to adjust this though, I think you have to add 23 to the Y coordinate and take 3 off the X coordinate. You'll figure it out.

Hope that helps.

[Wisse]

ok i delete the sea route, much players have sayd that it isn't nesecery (sp^) so i delete it

ok done the rivers, they join now perfectly

ok, if more people don't like that i will delete it

i will try to make it more straight

fixed the mountains

i will look at the legends, but what do you mean with "t should at least follow the same format as the continent bonuses IMO" (i also not understand IMO)
i will also look to that 2

ok if more people want that, i will set up ah poll for those 2 things (this and the texture on the other land) [a combinated poll so that every option is possible]


thnx for the cordinate info

P.S
everything i said i have done will be seen in the next update, i've just done that while answering this

[Marvaddin]

Sorry if I miss something... I didnt read all the thread.

1st, the continents dispersion looks terrible... 7 continents in 28 territories, but at least yellow and both blue continents are wasted. Are you trying to match real provinces? Because I would like to suggest a completely different continent scheme.
In fact, I still hate the way the land is being used. Territories so small that you need use 2 colours to their names (in fact, this is not a good idea, try adjust the colours, so you can use just one to the names), while Xinjiang and some others have tons of free space.

Looks like you are being very influenced by Benelux map: a two territories continent??? Argh, this is becoming really common today, huh? But not as bad as these capitols. If I understood correctly, holding the 3 marked territories is worthy a bonus... exactly as benelux and also eastern front maps. This is not only a idea other maps are using, but also is very badly explained in the legend...

I also suggest you to remove Taiwan... simple, its another country. Add a new territory is not difficult.

About the graphics, I like the font. And the ocean is good, but its contrasting with a tooooo soft land texture. And by the way, the playable area is still stripped, argh! Please try another one, mate.

Your current mountains: very bad. Try something alike to the wall. Title in the flag: very very bad. Plus, you could move a bit the unpassable legend, to add a decorative picture.

Thats it. You asked for comments, I put some in the box.

[Contrickster]

What's wrong with Taiwan? Taiwan is a part of China's history; culture and people share much. No reason to remove Taiwan.

Maybe Taiwan should have a special status on the map. 1 bonus army for holding Taiwan?


Comments

* Bridges far too small. It's not easy to strategise unless you can clearly see the map.

* Dislike the plastic-ky texture.

* I can hardly see the mountains. Is that shiny line supposed to represent an impenetrable barrier? Maybe it can be double thickness and on the green side too.

* Beijing (dark blue continent) only 2 bonus armies yet it links to three continents and has 5 borders

* Lanzhou (red continent) is 2 bonus armies and has just 1 border! The river should not reach the mountains, you should be able to attack E.X to Q.

* Manjing overpowered. 5 bonus armies but borders just two continents, 5 borders total.

* Black and white circle thing - what is it? Graphic looks tacky.

* Font colour: why is the Font over the sea not the same colour as that over the land? It's distracting.

* Great Wall - instead of two breaks within the blue continent (why?) how about one break in the blue continent and another link to the red continent? (Don't make the wall reach right to the Mongolian border).

* The continent bonuses need to be completely reworked (see above.)

[Samus]

I don't know if you're past the point of changing countries and regions around, but here's some stuff you ought to know. I will assume with 28 countries this map is intended for 4 people. Given that:

There is slightly more than 22% chance someone will start the game holding Jinan.

There is about a 4.3% chance someone will start the game with Beijing, another 4.3% chance for Shenyang, and yet another 4.3% chance of someone having all 3 symbols upon initialization. It is more or less a certainty that at least one of the players will start the game with 2 of the 3 in at least one of these regions.

If left as is, I would anticipate a LOT of complaints about how one or two of the players start with a huge advantage.

i made this map especialy for 3/4 players and if they begin with that they are lucky i have even seen a player against me on the Alexander's empire map and he had Mauryan empire at the start, its just luck

I don't think you understand, it's not some "once in a blue moon" thing, 1 in 4 games on this map, someone will start with a bonus. In pretty much every game on this map, someone will start 1 territory away from a bonus. This is not just a "sometimes" luck thing, most games on this map will be decided by luck not strategy.

So if you wonder why a lot of players like myself will refuse to ever play this map, now you know why. After others try it out, I suspect this map will get played about as often as Indochina. It just seems a waste to put this much effort into a map people won't play.

[AndyDufresne]

Old Poll Results:

what style of font do you like (page 4)

normal (Xinjian)
37% [ 9 ]
Qinghai
4% [ 1 ]
Gansu
8% [ 2 ]
Shaanxi
8% [ 2 ]
W.Xizang
4% [ 1 ]
E.Xizang
4% [ 1 ]
no-one, try other fonts
33% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 24


--Andy

[Wisse]

Sorry if I miss something... I didnt read all the thread.

1st, the continents dispersion looks terrible... 7 continents in 28 territories, but at least yellow and both blue continents are wasted. Are you trying to match real provinces? Because I would like to suggest a completely different continent scheme.
In fact, I still hate the way the land is being used. Territories so small that you need use 2 colours to their names (in fact, this is not a good idea, try adjust the colours, so you can use just one to the names), while Xinjiang and some others have tons of free space.

Looks like you are being very influenced by Benelux map: a two territories continent??? Argh, this is becoming really common today, huh? But not as bad as these capitols. If I understood correctly, holding the 3 marked territories is worthy a bonus... exactly as benelux and also eastern front maps. This is not only a idea other maps are using, but also is very badly explained in the legend...

I also suggest you to remove Taiwan... simple, its another country. Add a new territory is not difficult.

About the graphics, I like the font. And the ocean is good, but its contrasting with a tooooo soft land texture. And by the way, the playable area is still stripped, argh! Please try another one, mate.

Your current mountains: very bad. Try something alike to the wall. Title in the flag: very very bad. Plus, you could move a bit the unpassable legend, to add a decorative picture.

Thats it. You asked for comments, I put some in the box.

my continets are perfectly the same as the militair continents where/are
i will try to make the font color better for those areas

i think taiwan is needed its the same as leaving greenland out of north america

i have no other people complaining about the texture of the playable land, and if you read my last post you see that i already toneddown the sea font (no picture yet of it)

also heard no-one complain about the title in the flag, i only heard people say the flag was good and about the picture, then it will be to crowded i think

i will see if more people complain about the things you sayd i will change them, if you are the only one i will not we will see

[Wisse]

What's wrong with Taiwan? Taiwan is a part of China's history; culture and people share much. No reason to remove Taiwan.

Maybe Taiwan should have a special status on the map. 1 bonus army for holding Taiwan?


Comments

* Bridges far too small. It's not easy to strategise unless you can clearly see the map.

* Dislike the plastic-ky texture.

* I can hardly see the mountains. Is that shiny line supposed to represent an impenetrable barrier? Maybe it can be double thickness and on the green side too.

* Beijing (dark blue continent) only 2 bonus armies yet it links to three continents and has 5 borders

* Lanzhou (red continent) is 2 bonus armies and has just 1 border! The river should not reach the mountains, you should be able to attack E.X to Q.

* Manjing overpowered. 5 bonus armies but borders just two continents, 5 borders total.

* Black and white circle thing - what is it? Graphic looks tacky.

* Font colour: why is the Font over the sea not the same colour as that over the land? It's distracting.

* Great Wall - instead of two breaks within the blue continent (why?) how about one break in the blue continent and another link to the red continent? (Don't make the wall reach right to the Mongolian border).

* The continent bonuses need to be completely reworked (see above.)

i don't like the extra bonus for taiwan no need for it i think

*when i had them bigger people didn't like them because they were to big...

*wich texture do you mean?? the one of the bridges??

*already changed the mountain as you can see in my last post (no picture yet)

*it has only 3 borders, border will mean a country that defends, not a country that can attack that country

*don't like that idea but if more wants it i can do it

*it doesn't matter how much continents it borders it does matter how much countrys it must defend

*if more people doesn't like it i will delete that stroke emboss

*great idea, i will close the wall above hebei and will open it above gansu so that red also has 2 borders

*as you have seen i commented on your bonus updates

[Wisse]

I don't know if you're past the point of changing countries and regions around, but here's some stuff you ought to know. I will assume with 28 countries this map is intended for 4 people. Given that:

There is slightly more than 22% chance someone will start the game holding Jinan.

There is about a 4.3% chance someone will start the game with Beijing, another 4.3% chance for Shenyang, and yet another 4.3% chance of someone having all 3 symbols upon initialization. It is more or less a certainty that at least one of the players will start the game with 2 of the 3 in at least one of these regions.

If left as is, I would anticipate a LOT of complaints about how one or two of the players start with a huge advantage.

i made this map especialy for 3/4 players and if they begin with that they are lucky i have even seen a player against me on the Alexander's empire map and he had Mauryan empire at the start, its just luck

I don't think you understand, it's not some "once in a blue moon" thing, 1 in 4 games on this map, someone will start with a bonus. In pretty much every game on this map, someone will start 1 territory away from a bonus. This is not just a "sometimes" luck thing, most games on this map will be decided by luck not strategy.

So if you wonder why a lot of players like myself will refuse to ever play this map, now you know why. After others try it out, I suspect this map will get played about as often as Indochina. It just seems a waste to put this much effort into a map people won't play.

if it will be like indo-china, my task is complete thats one of my favourite maps

but then i don't care if someone begins with a bonus, you need more strategy than luck, i killed someone on the world 2 map who had whole north america and i didn't had any bonus, thats strategy

[Wisse]

Old Poll Results:

what style of font do you like (page 4)

normal (Xinjian)
37% [ 9 ]
Qinghai
4% [ 1 ]
Gansu
8% [ 2 ]
Shaanxi
8% [ 2 ]
W.Xizang
4% [ 1 ]
E.Xizang
4% [ 1 ]
no-one, try other fonts
33% [ 8 ]

Total Votes : 24


--Andy

thnx andy

[Wisse]

hmm the poll is a bit large

[Marvaddin]

my continets are perfectly the same as the militair continents where/are

^^ Always a question... playability vs realism. I think you could look for an alternative, mate. Well, why dont you start posting your base map?

i will see if more people complain about the things you sayd i will change them, if you are the only one i will not we will see

Why dont you try some options already, and let us choose? Possibly not that difficult test some other textures, title / flag position, or legends, huh?

In fact, what the hell is the title doing in the flag? Are there people supporting this, or just "not complaining"? How would it be too crowded, if you can easily move the unpassable legend and put the title over it? Try it and lets see how it looks.

[KEYOGI]

i will look at the legends, but what do you mean with "t should at least follow the same format as the continent bonuses IMO" (i also not understand IMO)

IMO = in my opinion.

In regards to the legend, your bonuses are labeled from left the right but that bonus is from top to bottom. Make sense?

I don't think you understand, it's not some "once in a blue moon" thing, 1 in 4 games on this map, someone will start with a bonus. In pretty much every game on this map, someone will start 1 territory away from a bonus. This is not just a "sometimes" luck thing, most games on this map will be decided by luck not strategy.

This is a potential problem on just about any map, so I don't see any problem with it here. I've started with a bonus of two and even four on some maps.

[Wisse]

my continets are perfectly the same as the militair continents where/are

^^ Always a question... playability vs realism. I think you could look for an alternative, mate. Well, why dont you start posting your base map?

i will see if more people complain about the things you sayd i will change them, if you are the only one i will not we will see

Why dont you try some options already, and let us choose? Possibly not that difficult test some other textures, title / flag position, or legends, huh?

In fact, what the hell is the title doing in the flag? Are there people supporting this, or just "not complaining"? How would it be too crowded, if you can easily move the unpassable legend and put the title over it? Try it and lets see how it looks.

where would i let the impassable border legend or must i scrap it?

and i din't thought of the idea you just sayd i will do that and you all can choose

ow and the base map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_e ... lreg96.jpg

[Wisse]

i will look at the legends, but what do you mean with "t should at least follow the same format as the continent bonuses IMO" (i also not understand IMO)

IMO = in my opinion.

In regards to the legend, your bonuses are labeled from left the right but that bonus is from top to bottom. Make sense?

I don't think you understand, it's not some "once in a blue moon" thing, 1 in 4 games on this map, someone will start with a bonus. In pretty much every game on this map, someone will start 1 territory away from a bonus. This is not just a "sometimes" luck thing, most games on this map will be decided by luck not strategy.

This is a potential problem on just about any map, so I don't see any problem with it here. I've started with a bonus of two and even four on some maps.

how would you like to have the bonus names sort? i did it from left to right and than down and again from left to right, i don't know how i can do it otherwise

[KEYOGI]

I think they should all be from left to right, that's just me though.

[Wisse]

I think they should all be from left to right, that's just me though.

so:
red
green
d.blue
yellow
orange
l.blue
purple

???

[KEYOGI]

Ok, that's not what I meant. I think it should go:

2 Lanzhou
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
5 Nanjing
2 OOO (holding all three symbols)

If that didn't make any sense I'll mock up a quick image of what I mean.

[Wisse]

Ok, that's not what I meant. I think it should go:

2 Lanzhou
etc
etc
etc
etc
etc
5 Nanjing
2 OOO (holding all three symbols)

If that didn't make any sense I'll mock up a quick image of what I mean.

XD that did make sence that will be irritating work to get all perfectly fit

[Contrickster]

//i don't like the extra bonus for taiwan no need for it i think //

Okay. I amstill in favour of keeping Taiwan on the playable map.

//*when i had them bigger people didn't like them because they were to big... //

Now I think they are too small. Maybe slightly bigger but not as big as they were before?

//*wich texture do you mean?? the one of the bridges?? //

The texture of the continents. Could you see if you like another better?


//*already changed the mountain as you can see in my last post (no picture yet) //

Okay. I'll look forward to the picture update for the mountain.


//*it has only 3 borders, border will mean a country that defends, not a country that can attack that country //

Beijing has 5 borders. 1. the bridge to the orange continent 2. Red continent to shaanx - shanxi and then three to the purple continent: 3 Nei Mongal - Liaoning 4. Nei Mongal - Jilling 5. Nei Mongal - Heilongjiang.

In game play the purple continent might be owned by three different players, all of whom could threaten Beijing with a set. 2 bonus armies does not seem to be enough for this continent.

//*don't like that idea but if more wants it i can do it //

Chengdu needs a border with the red continent otherwise the play will be very channelled. Chengu is like a cave. 3 bonus armies only 3 borders, and only one continent at that! Something must be done about Chengdu. If the river starts later than the mountains you have an attack route to the red continent and visually more appealing less "channelled" map.


//*if more people doesn't like it i will delete that stroke emboss//

What's the reason for it? From looking at the map I don't understand how it involves the gameplay. Maybe it can be a golden stroke emboss instead of b/w.


//*great idea, i will close the wall above hebei and will open it above gansu so that red also has 2 borders//

This will give Beijing another border. I think Beijing is a significant continent.

[Wisse]

//i don't like the extra bonus for taiwan no need for it i think //

Okay. I amstill in favour of keeping Taiwan on the playable map.

//*when i had them bigger people didn't like them because they were to big... //

Now I think they are too small. Maybe slightly bigger but not as big as they were before?

//*wich texture do you mean?? the one of the bridges?? //

The texture of the continents. Could you see if you like another better?


//*already changed the mountain as you can see in my last post (no picture yet) //

Okay. I'll look forward to the picture update for the mountain.


//*it has only 3 borders, border will mean a country that defends, not a country that can attack that country //

Beijing has 5 borders. 1. the bridge to the orange continent 2. Red continent to shaanx - shanxi and then three to the purple continent: 3 Nei Mongal - Liaoning 4. Nei Mongal - Jilling 5. Nei Mongal - Heilongjiang.

In game play the purple continent might be owned by three different players, all of whom could threaten Beijing with a set. 2 bonus armies does not seem to be enough for this continent.

//*don't like that idea but if more wants it i can do it //

Chengdu needs a border with the red continent otherwise the play will be very channelled. Chengu is like a cave. 3 bonus armies only 3 borders, and only one continent at that! Something must be done about Chengdu. If the river starts later than the mountains you have an attack route to the red continent and visually more appealing less "channelled" map.


//*if more people doesn't like it i will delete that stroke emboss//

What's the reason for it? From looking at the map I don't understand how it involves the gameplay. Maybe it can be a golden stroke emboss instead of b/w.


//*great idea, i will close the wall above hebei and will open it above gansu so that red also has 2 borders//

This will give Beijing another border. I think Beijing is a significant continent.

-do you mean taller in lenght? or just bigger

-already looked trhough every texture this one is the one i like the most

-bejing has only 3 countrys 1 country can only be 1 border so it has 3 borders

and that doesn't matetr you only have one country to defend

-i liked the way of chengdu its different from all other maps though i will break the great wall to let red have anather border

-a golden embos, hmm i look trough that

-bejing doesn't get anather border because "border is not called a land that can attack a teh land but a land that must defence himself against 1 or more lands

[Contrickster]

//-do you mean taller in lenght? or just bigger//

Bigger and maybe slightly longer too. But not too much.

//-already looked trhough every texture this one is the one i like the most //

Okay, I could get use to it.

//-bejing doesn't get anather border because "border is not called a land that can attack a teh land but a land that must defence himself against 1 or more lands//

If Nei Mongol a border with red through a shortened wall, that would be another defensive border for Beijing??

//i liked the way of chengdu its different from all other maps Wink though i will break the great wall to let red have anather border
//

A one-way attack route over river into Chengdu? Like red (which you are doing something about), green seems an over powered continent. Someone could start lucky and get green and in a couple of rounds have orange for +7 bonus armies, then move into light blue and the game is over.

Look forward to playing the map once it is finished.

[Wisse]

that one way option sounds good, but what kind of thing would that be

[Contrickster]

that one way option sounds good, but what kind of thing would that be

The geography of Quinhai is distinctive with the Tibetian plateau, known as "the roof of the world." 54% of Quinhai is above 4'000 feet above sea level.

So one would think a strategic advantage goes to whoever owns Quinhai over E. Xiang, because they own the high ground.

You would need a graphic change to show the height of Quinhai province.

[Wisse]

the only problem is, that i made that plateau on tibet itself (xizang) so i could do a one way downwards to red, but not otherwards