Gilgamesh; Coordinates on pg 20

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

My only real concerns as far as the graphics are concerned are actually fairly minor ones, and I think they all relate to the mountains - not the style, which I think works well with the map, but the colouring of them in particular locations...

Fixed the points you noticed as well as others. One was missing the stroke, did a lot of dodging and burning. Holler at me if you see any more.

[MrBenn]

I think you missed this one:


The other thing I wonder, is about the colour of the territory text, which feels a little bit too bright-white? Perhaps either switch the colour to the beige that you've used for the pictograms, or add a grunge layer to the text (I think you can do that to all the text at once if the text layers are all grouped, but I'm not completely certain) - either should make the text feel older.

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

The other thing I wonder, is about the colour of the territory text, which feels a little bit too bright-white?

Great minds think alike... I was noticing the same thing with the last update. How's this?

[AndyDufresne]

In regards to the text color, I think I actually prefer the white over this option. But maybe something in between the two I could live with.


--Andy

[MrBenn]

In regards to the text color, I think I actually prefer the white over this option. But maybe something in between the two I could live with.

--Andy

Also, for consistency, I wonder if the text at the bottom (on the legend) should be the same colour as on the map?? I actually have no idea if it even matters

[saaimen]

Hi guys!

I'm all new to this topic... Though I made quite some promo for Gilgamesh on the Centerscape competition
First of all, oaktown, great work
Then, to hop onto the train:

3. Between Nisir and The Great Darkness are two diagonal lines of beige/blue; I'd be inclined to mix up those colours a fraction to make them look more random
4. Arrata - there is a diagonal line of three beige mountains that blend into the non-playable area, and I would make one of them darker.

I think in general, the coloring of the mountain 'ridges' (there are a quite a few diagonal lines in all the big chunks of mountain) could and should be made more random. Either that, or just the placement of the actual mountains. I didn't look it up again, but I think in the original Centerscape revamp, they looked nicely spread out in a (sort of) natural way. I'm not very much into this alignment, especially if it's accented by the colors.

Secondly, (once again, compared to the original,) you've changed the region colors quite a bit, right? I find them a bit too 'saturated' or 'full'. I'm not a graphics man so I hope these terms make sense... They used to be more pale, 'washed off'. Mind you, I'm not trying to change everything back to the way it used to be Maybe it's just that the paler colors seemed to be 'sandier', matching the concept of A) a wall painting B) in a desert-ish region...

Then I'd like to make one gameplay suggestion. I know it's been stamped recently but maybe this makes sense.
How would you feel about changing one city location from Ur to Susa? I don't know if there's any historical background for Ur being a big city or something, I haven't read all 12 pages. IMHO, the city bonus should be a not-so-easy extra, and this works better if all cities have >3 borders. I know Nineveh also has two, but somehow that doesn't feel bad to me If you changed Ur to Susa, you'd also be rid of the easy Sumer + cities combo and you could go back to +4 for 5 cities which you've changed recently.
I hope this makes sense Just lemme know if it doesn't

[iancanton]

congrats on having solved the issue of the cities by using appropriate start positions and a preset neutral!

the cities and - critically for the storyline - the challenges will no longer be unattractive targets if we increase their bonuses by 3 each, that is to +4 for the 3 challenges (to compensate for having to kill 3 neutrals), +5 for 4 cities and +7 for all 6 cities. this is nowhere near enough to make them game-winning objectives, but saves them from being as unloved as the cities on the scotland map.

the challenges are still very much in danger of being ignored though. with a bonus of only +1 for holding three widely-scattered regions, who is actually going to bother with them?

ian.

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

I think in general, the coloring of the mountain 'ridges' (there are a quite a few diagonal lines in all the big chunks of mountain) could and should be made more random. Either that, or just the placement of the actual mountains. I didn't look it up again, but I think in the original Centerscape revamp, they looked nicely spread out in a (sort of) natural way.

The color pattern has been the same from start - alternating colors, blue yellow. I think that what has happened - and it has happened so gradually that I haven't noticed it - is that I've been filling in more mountains to nicely frame regions, and the more mountains that I add the more the lines of color stand out. I've started strategically removing some mountains and darkening/lightening others. I hope this breaks it up a bit.

Secondly, (once again, compared to the original,) you've changed the region colors quite a bit, right? I find them a bit too 'saturated' or 'full'. I'm not a graphics man so I hope these terms make sense... They used to be more pale, 'washed off'. Mind you, I'm not trying to change everything back to the way it used to be Maybe it's just that the paler colors seemed to be 'sandier', matching the concept of A) a wall painting B) in a desert-ish region...

Again, this has happened gradually over the past months... I've washed out the colors a bit, and turned up the opacity of the dust and scratch layers that I have over the entire image.

I've also brought the territory text back up to a light gray, from the background sand color that proved hard to read. Text in the legend is also lighter.

How would you feel about changing one city location from Ur to Susa? I don't know if there's any historical background for Ur being a big city or something, I haven't read all 12 pages.

I tried removing Ur, but I was quickly criticized. All of the regions depicted within/around the rivers are historical city states, but Ur was among the first and remains one of the most well known. I'd say a good case can be made for keeping it.

the challenges are still very much in danger of being ignored though. with a bonus of only +1 for holding three widely-scattered regions, who is actually going to bother with them?

I wouldn't be opposed to turning it up, but note that the challenges don't start neutral as you said way back - I believe the plan is now to code them as starts, so in two and three player games these are the territories that i promose you will NOT start neutral (well, in a 1v1 there is a 1 in 3 chance that ONE of them will start neutral, but the other two will be assigned.) So, +2? That makes them the same as holding four cities, which I can live with.

Another thought I had was to allow the Bull of Heaven - who represents drought - to bombard all of the cities.

[AndyDufresne]

Another thought I had was to allow the Bull of Heaven - who represents drought - to bombard all of the cities.

Though interesting, I'm not sure it'd really add to the game play in any meaningful way (I.E. Naval Superiority works out nicely because of its meaningfulness)--and may be just more of a gimmick. Just a thought.


--Andy

[Incandenza]

Plus it would massively overpower the terit, meaning that it would have to start neutral (like the armor in berlin).

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

Challenges are up to +2. Yes, the four cities are also +2 and you have to hold more of them, but tell me which bonus you'd rather have? Challenge bonus is hard to hold and not at all strategic, but could look awfully tempting to the player that wraps up green early.

And mountains. After many comments I've mixed up the mountains a bit. Gone are the straight lines of blue or yellow cutting through the mountain ranges.

Just in case one of our graphics people wanders by, here's a small image...

Click image to enlarge.

[the.killing.44]

Yeah I wandered by …

Just a note, the challenges are rather hard to see. I'd say the same about the water but because that has no effect on the GP then it's fine, but adding the black glow you have on the other elements of the map (text, cities) then that'd be much better.

Lookin' good,
.44

[MrBenn]

I find the 'Bull of Heaven' territory name difficult to read - it's because it's a light colour on a light background... perhaps make that name orange like you did with everything else on it?

[saaimen]

On the small map, I think the territ names in Sumer and Canaan are quite a bit harder to read than in the other regions.
Once again, because this is the sand-ish background color.
How about brightening up the territory names in those two regions? When you look from Dilmun to Canaan, the names in Canaan suddenly seem to be darker (due to less contrast with the background, I suppose).

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

Changes to this version are subtle... some titles lighter, most have an added outer glow. Moved some more mountains, brightened up the challenges a bit both on the map and the legend. Hopefully this addresses visibility issues?

[AndyDufresne]

I'm pretty satisfied with the visibility of most everything.


--Andy

[saaimen]

Changes to this version are subtle... some titles lighter, most have an added outer glow. Moved some more mountains, brightened up the challenges a bit both on the map and the legend. Hopefully this addresses visibility issues?

Yup

And I completely dig the randomness of the mountains

[MrBenn]

When did you add those waves to Shurupak? I've only just noticed them

I'm sure somebody will wonder what they are there for, thinking they mean something

What's the 'H' for beneath your signature?

[oaktown]

When did you add those waves to Shurupak? I've only just noticed them
I'm sure somebody will wonder what they are there for, thinking they mean something

They've been there for a few weeks... they represent nothing in terms of gameplay, but anybody familiar with the epic might appreciate them. If folks think they'll be confusing I can make them more subtle.

What's the 'H' for beneath your signature?

Eh, I was just trying to make the sig look like cuneiform writing. Again, an unnecessary visual element and one i can easily live without.

Is that all you guys have got? Latest image has been up for two weeks without any other comments.

[the.killing.44]

Yes, maybe making the waves a bit more blended in would be best. I'll stare at the map for a bit later, but this I'm confident I could stamp this (after discussion of course )

.44

[oaktown]

Click image to enlarge.

86'ed the cuneiform scribblings under my sig, lightened the waves, tweaked a few other things.

[AndyDufresne]

You know what? I'm not sure I've anything additional to suggest. Could lighten the legend text for the Challenges and Cities to match the lighter/softer icons above the text, or vice versa darken the icons a little to match the text.

That's all I can see. Otherwise this looks dandy.


--Andy

[saaimen]

I'm not sure why there is still a border of a few pixels below the legend and above the 'coloured bricks'. It looks a bit awkward up there especially.
But that's really nitpicking, it's beautiful

[iancanton]

oak

as a matter of good form, can u put a gp in the title and something about the start positions in the first post? putting n3 on babylon to mark the position of the fixed starting neutral on each future update will also be helpful for anyone who hasn't been following this thread closely.

nice work on randomising the mountains.

ian.

[the.killing.44]

Small v please?

.44