4 Star Meats [Quenched]

[thenobodies80]

I think this can be a fun and unique map

I agree about this, The map could be funny and it's certainly unique (at least on this site).
But I have to look at it without considering the pretty graphics that probably push lot of people on the wrong way. If you remove the graphics and you think about it just a group of territories connected (like this one) it terribly lacks of a theme.
I'm not a fan of a map with cows on it but I can live with the idea of having one, just I totally against about a map just about a cow. That's the difference. Actually it's nothing except a image of a cow.
Taking Patch Wars as example... in that map, DiM took a mundane group of objects, like patches and buttons and transformed them into a CC Map. Imagine what that map would be without the theme...

Again I would like to see a CC map with a cow, not a image of a cow. Specially because the current gameplay has numerous nonsense/flaws, so pretty graphics aren't enough.
As I already said the issue here is that this map was draft stamped too quickly. Here Dana should go back and really think about how to fit the cow idea into a CC Map or his map will be exactly like this one I found on a similar game --> http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/2127/cowal.jpg
The only difference is that Dana has more skill and his result is nicer.

Nobodies

[pershy]

LOVE the map! Love the theme and the artwork and humor and you've obviously put a lot of thought into the gameplay Dana. I can't wait to try it out!!! Good to see something so original too.

you're late to the party, the other clan members posted hours ago

C'mon guys - you're being a bit harsh. This is a cool map end of story. I understand your points but CC is about having fun on different maps and I think this would be a lot of fun. The theme is beef - so let's get it on and have a battle over beef. There doesn't need to be a story or historical element to be a good map. A good map is a map where you have to figure out the best strategy and that can depend on many factors - number of players etc. This map has that and I wanna play it. And I have every right to say so!

[natty dread]

C'mon guys - you're being a bit harsh. This is a cool map end of story.

No, that's not the end of story. That's in fact the beginning of the story. After that comes refinement of the concept, development of the idea, and lots of work on the nitty & gritty details.

"A cool map" is not enough. That's only the starting point, something that warrants further discussion and attention. If the mapmaker is willing to take heed of the feedback and advice, and work hard, he can refine the concept and take it beyond just "a cool map". Then, with a lot of effort and hard work, it may become something that is feasible as a CC map.

[pershy]

Yup I hear ya. Well this is a good starting point. And there's lots of interesting feedback that's for sure. GL

[Flapcake]

Yup I hear ya. Well this is a good starting point. And there's lots of interesting feedback that's for sure. GL

If you dont respont, feedback dosent meen anything, dana have ignored what people have suggested including me, atleast he could have reacted and sayd "thx for input but Im not goin that way" thats more polite than ignoring the Assembly, its not the way through the foundry, its the way to the bin.

[dana1971]

Let me respond to a few of the negative comments.

dana have ignored what people have suggested including me,

You have got to be kidding me. I've changed the game play completely from my first draft. Taken on board all game play comments and implemented almost all of them.
What I haven't done is change the theme. because that would mean it wouldn't be a cow anymore and would be a completely different map.

This brings me onto the next comment.

If you remove the graphics and you think about it just a group of territories connected (like this one) it terribly lacks of a theme.I'm not a fan of a map with cows on it but I can live with the idea of having one, just I totally against about a map just about a cow. That's the difference. Actually it's nothing except a image of a cow.
Taking Patch Wars as example... in that map, DiM took a mundane group of objects, like patches and buttons and transformed them into a CC Map. Imagine what that map would be without the theme...
Again I would like to see a CC map with a cow, not a image of a cow. Specially because the current gameplay has numerous nonsense/flaws, so pretty graphics aren't enough. Nobodies

I don't see how you can say it has no theme??? Sure it's a map of a cow split into lots of separate parts. The theme is a cow, you are playing on a board in the shape of a cow, and everything on the map has to do with the cow. The definition of theme is: a unifying or dominant idea. In this case a cow. A regret putting the BSE story in there because I don't think it needs it. I only put it in there because I thought that was what you were all after. Like my days in art school it wasn't enough to paint a pretty picture you had to have some story to go with it that justified what it all meant. (I hated that part of art school)

Get a coherent theme for this map, make it something other than simply a map of a cow, or put your effort in some other project.

There are several maps that have been made that are simply a image of a real world location and I would say my theme is as coherent as any of them. Like the London, Istanbul, Yugoslavia, and the countless USA maps to name a few. All they are is a picture of a place broken up into sections with no stories or missions attached to them. I'm not putting down those maps I'm just saying how is the theme for those maps more valid than mine?

What the map lacks however is a proper theme.

What is a proper theme? Seems a bit of an elitist comment to me. Patch Wars for example: It's a great original looking map. But break it down and it's not that different. It's a map made of yarn with buttons as barriers, mine is made of meat with fat barriers. He has planes and buses I have a fly swarm. His theme is Yarn map, mine is a cow map.

thenobodies80 mentioned my game play has nonsense/flaws? Now that's something I'm interested in, and could learn from, because I thought the game play on my map looked cool and I could see a lot of good battles happening on it especially in a fog of war match.

To sum up you all have to agree it has a coherent theme, unless your definition of the word theme is different from the one in the dictionary. You may not be a fan of a cow theme but I don't see how you can argue that it isn't their.

That said if the theme was a problem for the people in charge why did it get a draft sticker, why was I allowed to progress?

So what happens now?

[dana1971]

So, you point out to crossword or madness for reasons to support a cow map. But in fact, they are exactly the reasons NOT to support a cow map: those are CC:s equivalent for the early experiments with gimmicks and novelties, which we have now moved past. Standards were more lax in the early days of CC mapmaking, because no one really knew what they were doing back then. We know better today, we have experience of what works and what doesn't, we know to avoid subsituting coherent themes with gimmiciks and novelties.

Here's a question for you. Are the so called novelty maps still being played by people? Are they popular? Here are a few stats.

Crossword has been played: 16,052 times
Chinese Checkers: 24,694
Madness: 11,506
Conquer 4: 13,151
Conquer man: 13,517
8 thoughts: 23,822
Poker club: 44,957

These numbers are a lot higher than a lot of the more classical maps, so to say these maps aren't valid or successful, is in my mind fool hardy. You may not play them, but clearly a lot of other people do.

[natty dread]

The theme is a cow

And that is the problem. The theme is "a cow".

Like my days in art school it wasn't enough to paint a pretty picture you had to have some story to go with it that justified what it all meant. (I hated that part of art school)

Then you'll probably hate that part of the foundry as well. It's also not enough to paint a pretty picture here, either.

There are several maps that have been made that are simply a image of a real world location and I would say my theme is as coherent as any of them. Like the London, Istanbul, Yugoslavia, and the countless USA maps to name a few. All they are is a picture of a place broken up into sections with no stories or missions attached to them.

Geographical locations are feasible as themes as there is an underlying context that already explains what the map is about: the game is a war game, it's based on a framework of troops, attacking, spoils, etc. so any place that can serve as a battlefield for those troops already has an implied theme in itself.

Before you bring out the non-geographical maps, most of those maps have solid themes of their own that are strong enough to support the map, so they are not dependent on any external context.

Your map has neither. It is, simply put, just a cow. Have you ever read in the newspaper how there's an international conflict between the tenderloin and the brisket? No. And there's nothing in the map itself that explains to you why you're fighting over a cow. Are you the last persons alive in the world? Is this cow all you have to eat and you're fighting over who eats what? Doesn't sound too sensible...

In other words, your map must give a reason for the players why they would want to play your map. You can't just hand over a picture to them and tell them to play on that. It doesn't make any sense, if that was the case we could just use any random picture and just add territory connections etc. on top.

[BlackKnight_6]

I think this map looks great and I don't understand why it hasn't gone through yet. I'd play this over lots of other maps on CC, like Hive or Conquer Man for example.

Really wanna see this out there please!

[sannemanrobinson]

And there's nothing in the map itself that explains to you why you're fighting over a cow. Are you the last persons alive in the world? Is this cow all you have to eat and you're fighting over who eats what? Doesn't sound too sensible...

If the cow had the mad cow disease (BSE) then the immune system is combating the disease and only one can win.

[koontz1973]

And there's nothing in the map itself that explains to you why you're fighting over a cow. Are you the last persons alive in the world? Is this cow all you have to eat and you're fighting over who eats what? Doesn't sound too sensible...

If the cow had the mad cow disease (BSE) then the immune system is combating the disease and only one can win.

But it does not say that on the map though. Where are the immune system territs or the infection territs?

[Oneyed]

I am quite new here, but let me say something.

both sides have right. the cow as theme is a little curious. for what for example I will fight for cow´s head? or for cow´s shit???

but also the truth is that needs each map any theme? there are several maps of any towns without theme - just fight for town...

dana1971, there are several times mentioned BSE, so maybe try to implement it somehow to gameplay. add some regions which are infected with negative bonuses or something similar...

just my few cents.

Oneyed

[natty dread]

but also the truth is that needs each map any theme?

Yes, each map needs a theme. This is not negotiable.

dana1971, there are several times mentioned BSE, so maybe try to implement it somehow to gameplay. add some regions which are infected with negative bonuses or something similar...

The thing is, this map needs more than just some quick fixes or additions. It needs a complete rehaul and a rethinking of the concept. Without this, this map is not going to advance, and fighting against it is just a waste of time.

[Oneyed]

Yes, each map needs a theme. This is not negotiable.

I agree that map needs theme, but sorry natty, which theme has any city map? I mean real theme, no that theme is city...

Oneyed

[natty dread]

Yes, each map needs a theme. This is not negotiable.

I agree that map needs theme, but sorry natty, which theme has any city map? I mean real theme, no that theme is city...

I already answered this question earlier in this thread.

Geographical locations are feasible as themes as there is an underlying context that already explains what the map is about: the game is a war game, it's based on a framework of troops, attacking, spoils, etc. so any place that can serve as a battlefield for those troops already has an implied theme in itself.

[Oneyed]

Geographical locations are feasible as themes as there is an underlying context that already explains what the map is about: the game is a war game, it's based on a framework of troops, attacking, spoils, etc. so any place that can serve as a battlefield for those troops already has an implied theme in itself.

ofcourse cities (countries) are better "theme" (also without real theme) for map as cow just because theye were (are) battlefield places. but we would be candid, there is no theme, only conquer any city divided to several regions.

but for example map about city - Stalingrad has real theme. this is what I mean.

Oneyed

[thenobodies80]

Natty has already given you the right answer on 99% of your post, you can like the idea or not but the foundry works in this way and your map, being just a cow, will go nowhere.

About why the map is in the main foundry I have already given an answer to you, the person who stamped the map didn't follow the right procedure. Don't ask me to give you a less kind answer because I don't want to use coarse language here. The reasonwhy it is in the main foundry it's just because I don't like the idea to strip your current draft stamp, but it would what I had to do to be honest. This map should be in the drafting room for the current guidelines.

Now ask yourself: Who are the characters in the map? (backstory, why is this map significant or a cool story)
What is your map about?
Where does it take place?
When does it take place?
Why are the events taking place? (again backstory)

When you decide to develope an uncommon map (not a territory/region to conquer like in maps about regions or cities) you should find an answer to these questions or at least there should be something that makes it possible for the future player. (it shouldn't be the same for everyone but there should be an answer)

With your map:

Who are the characters in the map? (backstory, why is this map significant or a cool story) Zero
What is your map about? A cow
Where does it take place? In a cow? In a butcher shop? No sense if there's no reference on the map.
When does it take place? Probably not necessary if you find the right place to set it into
Why are the events taking place? (again backstory) No answer, just fighting in a cow right now

As said you can hate it or not, but it can't be just a cow. Or tomorrow I'll start a map about a shit and I'll say: "Hey it's just a map about a shit, what's wrong with it? It's funny!"

Now please answer to my question, what is the link/connection between your map a CC map? You have no answer to this.
And don't tell me in past you already did this, because here that thing doesn't work, past is past, present is present.

There're plenty ways to make a map with the shape of a cow if you develope something that give a reason to play a cow. The issue here is that you don't want to bin your current map and restart from the scratch. You wouldn't be the first to do that nor the last, the difference is that others binned their current projects, took the necessary time and came back with a better layout of the same idea. Mostly 99% of them completed the map. On the opposite, continue to tell us that you don't want to change it because there's nothing wrong and that you worked on it a lot, when instead the majority of the people here (who knows about how to make a map) is giving you an answer about what is wrong on your map (on the opposite the guys of your clan went here just to give useless feedbacks), will bring you only to a fail.

Change the map layout or stop to waste your time.

[dana1971]

your map, being just a cow,

My map is not just a cow. This is just a cow.
My map is a just that a map of where the beef people eat comes from and other elements that are related to cows.

Now ask yourself: Who are the characters in the map? (backstory, why is this map significant or a cool story)
What is your map about?
Where does it take place?
When does it take place?
Why are the events taking place? (again backstory)

When you decide to develope an uncommon map (not a territory/region to conquer like in maps about regions or cities) you should find an answer to these questions or at least there should be something that makes it possible for the future player. (it shouldn't be the same for everyone but there should be an answer)

I could ask the same question for a lot of maps on CC and come up with no clear answers. If I didn't know any better you are making up rules that only apply to me to stop the cow theme. But I would like to think that's not the case, so maybe it's just a misunderstanding.

Let me compare my map to the recent and brilliant map "Patch Wars"
Who are the characters on my map? Unclear. (maybe germs, maybe it's a butcher trying to claim the best pieces of meat?)
Who are the characters on Patch Wars? Unclear. (Maybe it's the animals? But they don't move so it's can't really be them. Maybe it's armies of wool?)

What is my map about? Control the cow and win.
What is Patch Wars about? Control six animals to win.

Where does my map take place? On the body of a cow.
Where does Patch wars take place? On a piece of fabric.

When does it take place: Not important in either case.

Why are the events taking place on my map? Unclear (Because it's a game)
Why are the events taking place in Patch Wars? Unclear (Because the word war is in the title and it's a game?)

Perhaps you don't consider the fantastic original looking Patch Wars map to be uncommon?

Can you answer these questions the list of maps below which are played a lot on this site.
Crossword has been played: 16,052 times
Chinese Checkers: 24,694
Madness: 11,506
Conquer 4: 13,151
8 thoughts: 23,822
Poker club: 44,957

How about the sports maps like Baseball and Cricket? Have the players all resorted to killing each other in a bid to control the stadium?
You can say these maps are old and you don't make maps like them anymore but they are still popular with the people who use this site. Does that not count for anything?
The more I think about it, the powers at be seem to whip out these rules when it suits them and ignores them when it doesn't. But hey if they own the site then it's really is up to them and I'll just accept that's the way it is. Doesn't need to make sense or be consistent.

As said you can hate it or not, but it can't be just a cow. Or tomorrow I'll start a map about a shit and I'll say: "Hey it's just a map about a shit, what's wrong with it? It's funny!"
Now please answer to my question, what is the link/connection between your map a CC map? You have no answer to this.
And don't tell me in past you already did this, because here that thing doesn't work, past is past, present is present.

Again it's not just a cow, it's a thought out map in the shape of a cow with some pretty cool game play elements. Do you really think someone is going to make an interesting map based on shit or vomit that would successfully get a draft sticker? Sounds a bit like you're afraid that if this map gets published it will lead to a lot of silly themes getting approved.

What is the link between my map and a CC map? I guess that depends on what your definition of a CC map is? If you're asking will it fit alongside the existing maps then I'd say yes otherwise I wouldn't have made it. If you break it down all the maps are similar to each other, and the themes vary from real world geography, fantasy, and a few out of the box ideas like Patch Wars and Poker Club. My map would fit into the out of the box idea section.

Does your definition of a CC map fit for all the maps on the site? If not, why don't you take those maps down, regardless of their popularity?
Personally if a map has interesting game play elements and doesn't hurt my eyes looking at it, I'll play it. I never read the stories that come with some of the maps and try to imagine little men on the map. I just read the rules and hope the dice go my way.

Moving forward:
I started this wanting to make a map in the shape of a cow. Are you telling me this isn't possible because you find the shape of a cow to silly?
I'm happy to change the game play aspects as much as I need to, but really don't want to change the general shape because I like the idea of people building up armies in the legs, head, and tail; away from the main part of the body, then trying to fight it out in the torso. There would be some really good battles especially with fog of war.

Perhaps if I changed the name to Beef Wars, that would help with the "Theme" it seemed to work for Patch Wars.

I look forward to hearing your response.
Best Wishes,
Dana

[dana1971]

Geographical locations are feasible as themes as there is an underlying context that already explains what the map is about: the game is a war game, it's based on a framework of troops, attacking, spoils, etc. so any place that can serve as a battlefield for those troops already has an implied theme in itself.

Before you bring out the non-geographical maps, most of those maps have solid themes of their own that are strong enough to support the map, so they are not dependent on any external context.

Your map has neither. It is, simply put, just a cow. Have you ever read in the newspaper how there's an international conflict between the tenderloin and the brisket? No. And there's nothing in the map itself that explains to you why you're fighting over a cow. Are you the last persons alive in the world? Is this cow all you have to eat and you're fighting over who eats what? Doesn't sound too sensible...

LOL really, that's your argument? How about the baseball map? What's going on there? Don't remember reading in the newspaper about a bloody conflict in a baseball stadium before?
Sadly there haven't been any battles for supremacy on my patch work quilt either.

How about those geographical locations like one of the many USA maps? Haven't read about enemy troops invading the US in a bid to take it over. There are countless maps on here with no theme other than a location. And I don't see anything wrong with that. Why should the rules be different for my location?

[natty dread]

Dana, I'm sorry to say this to you, but the truth is, you can continue arguing and fighting against everyone, and it will get you nowhere. This is a map of a cow, and it will not be made as it is now. End of story.

Now you can either take the advice everyone's been trying to give you, or you can stay here and argue. Your choice.

[koontz1973]

you can continue arguing and fighting against everyone

This now seems to be the case. Shame really that someone with a little talent comes along only to fight.

take the advice

[Bruceswar]

I do not think he is fighting, but rather coming with a map idea that many people like and will play. Go back and look at the doodle earth thread, or feudal war. Both idea's had many people saying it would not work. Those 2 maps are some of the most played. Will this one be? Maybe? Maybe not, but that is not what matters. This map will be a hit if you ask me. Go on with it!

[natty dread]

I do not think he is fighting, but rather coming with a map idea that many people like and will play. Go back and look at the doodle earth thread, or feudal war. Both idea's had many people saying it would not work. Those 2 maps are some of the most played. Will this one be? Maybe? Maybe not, but that is not what matters. This map will be a hit if you ask me. Go on with it!

Bruce, you're not really helping the issue. No matter what you think of the map, the CA:s have expressed their position clearly: the map will not be made with the current theme & layout. If you keep encouraging the mapmaker to just "stick to his guns" it will only hurt his project, when in fact what he should be doing is take the advice from people who are trying to tell him how to make the map feasible.

Besides, the argument "these two popular maps also had opposition, so you can just ignore any opposition and criticism towards your map" is a really bad one.

[thenobodies80]

The questions I wrote in my previous post are not adding rules, in fact those questions are well written both into drafting room and graphics guidelines. If you didn't saw them it's because you missed them.
Then, NEVER make comparison between maps, every map is different and it's different the development, if you compare maps you just waste time. All time I saw people trying to compare maps I saw a project fail, specially if the comparison is with old maps. Rules now are different than the ones there was 5 years ago.

Now, I'm not saying you have to change the shape, just it can't be just the shape of a cow on a piece of paper.

What about create a background story to have your map fun, still about cows but a bit more crazy, foolish, funny?
What about to make your current cow shape , let me say, a island where the "cow population" has to fight for a reason? Just random ideas but maybe something along the line: " The old Cow King is dead, now his heirs claim the throne, Prince Veal, Duke Beef, Sir Steak, Count Ribs (etc) will lead their troops against the others to rule the Cow Island and reign on the bovine people for the time being. Who will be the victor?"

To do this you can create more toon graphics (like goblin tribes, for example), and maybe make the regions names more gimmicks, for example tenderloin could be changed in tender land.

The flies can stay on the map and be a sort of foreign/barbarian invader that force the cow population to go away from a X region because they are annoying! (Sort of killer neutral that can bombard any region or something like that).

Obviously these are just random thoughts but i think that something along these lines would make your cow map a real novel map, something unique and that stands out from the common maps. You will create something uncommon but still related with a risk CC Map.

As said, it's not the cow, but the fact it's just a cow. Hope the crazy idea (that certainly needs lot of work on your curreent map - I'm well aware of this) that i posted here above will help you to go on the right way.
Dana, I'm not trying to bin your work, to do that I have just to push two buttons and ignore you....but there's no point in do that. What I'm doing is to try to help you to develop the best possible map with the foolish/fun idea you picked up! Listen to me, go beyond the current layout you have because if a cow could be fun, it's not fun as it is now.
I'm sure you have the skill to do that or I don't be here to post in your thread trying to push you in the right direction.

Hope you get what I mean, if you need help to develope a better map just let me know, send me a pm and I'll be here asap and I'll give you all the necessary support to create a novel map. Just I won't support your current layout because it's not so funny as you think, just that.
Remember I'm not trying to bin your idea, just trying to push it to a higher level.

Nobodies

[isaiah40]

Now tbn80's ideas really peaked my interest, this would definitely do wonders for this!!!