Poker Club [Quenched]

[yeti_c]

I'm not too fussed about a dead end card or two - as they're not true deadends - cos you can just attack from the other card then go elsewhere - a true deadend is like Lands End on Britain - once you head down the path you cannot turn around in that go.

I think we also need something like "Only Best Hand gains bonus" or something (Cicero - wording help please?) which would solve a couple of other comments (I believe my version had something similar in it)

Also agree about High Card definition.

10 of clubs could be improved a bit... it's a bit fuzzy!

C.

[WidowMakers]

OK Version 6


Changes:

1) Tried to improve the 10 of clubs. Is it a bit better now?
2) Added "Only best Hand Gives Bonus" to legend
3) Added "No Related Cards" to High card description
4) Added grunge and stains to the table
5) Added lines to separate teh No Territory bonus and Only Best Hand.., from the bonuses
6) Changed the red "Territory bonus" to yellow. No longer have colorblind issue
7) Fixed 2 PAIR description: 2 cards of same value + 2 more cards of same value

Yeti and I discussed this earlier. I feel that since the bonuses are only given out for the best hand, the better hands need to be worth more.

SO here is my suggestion

(3) High Card
(4) 1 Pair
(6) 2 Pair
(8) 3 of a Kind
(10) Straight
(13)Flush
(17) Full House
(23) 4 of a kind
(30) Straight Flush
(40) Royal Flush

And here is the graph


So what do you think? It only makes sense sine the map has 52 terts. A two player game would never end if the highest bonus was 15.

WM

[yeti_c]

OK comments.

a) 10 Clubs still not great - perhaps make more vertical and make it touch the Q & 2 and move away from the 8.
b) Jack & King of Clubs are missing their Graphics.
c) Not sure about the logarithmic scale - as this more than likely makes the 1st person start in a 1v1 more unfair... would like to hear from Benji on this as our resident 1v1 player.

C.

[WidowMakers]

Version 7


Fixed:

a) 10 Clubs still not great - perhaps make more vertical and make it touch the Q & 2 and move away from the 8.
b) Jack & King of Clubs are missing their Graphics.

WM

[yeti_c]

Looking spot on there WM...

C.

[Sir. Ricco]

I was quite surprised at seeing this in the Map Foundry, but after looking at the map, I see that it belongs here.

I really like what you have done with the cards and their order. Good job on that!

The only problem I have with the map is it looks like it could be very easy to spawn with several bonuses in 2-player games.

[yeti_c]

I was quite surprised at seeing this in the Map Foundry, but after looking at the map, I see that it belongs here.

I really like what you have done with the cards and their order. Good job on that!

The only problem I have with the map is it looks like it could be very easy to spawn with several bonuses in 2-player games.

Yeah that will be a bit of a problem - I have minimised this by limiting the number of bonuses you can get via some neutrals (See first page)...

However - unless we make this a conquest map then it won't be possible for all game types/number of players.

C.

[BBoz]

Maybe you could make it where each player starts with a max of 5 cards? (Standard Poker Hand)

[gimil]

Maybe you could make it where each player starts with a max of 5 cards? (Standard Poker Hand)

It would be possible but it cant be set to pick 5 random cards with the current XML. good shout thou

[hulmey]

nice an dtinterestin map ,espicallly since i work in poker....I dont think you should get a bonus for a high card, and what does that mean actually. How is the high card determined?

plus i can see a AKQJ 10 straight very easily at the bottom of the map, could you mix that up maybe?

[WidowMakers]

nice an dtinterestin map ,espicallly since i work in poker....I dont think you should get a bonus for a high card, and what does that mean actually. How is the high card determined?

plus i can see a AKQJ 10 straight very easily at the bottom of the map, could you mix that up maybe?

actually there are straights all over teh place.

23456 middle bottom
34567 middle
8910jQ left
10JQKA Top

There are going to be many bonuses close because there are so many different ways to make bonuses.

But we can still talk about it. Yeti gets the final say. I am just here to make the image. Once we all agree, the large version will be made.

WM

[edbeard]

1. Don't you think the way you attack should be mentioned in the legend since this isn't exactly a normal map. Obviously, it's via touching cards but you know that people are going to be like, "how does this work?" I don't think dumbing it down in this case is a bad thing or excessive.



2. If my setup of this is correct, the chances of starting with four 2s in a four player game is...

(4 choose 4) times (36 choose 6) divided by (40 choose 10) = (1) times (1947792) / (847660528) = .002297844

which means that in four player games, the chances of me starting with four 2s are about .23% or 2.3 times in 1000 games.

1/4 of the time that player will be first to play and have a +11.


FYI: 847,660,528 is the total number of possible starting positions for one player in a four player game. And, 1,947,792 is the total number of ways to get those four 2s.

Three player (or two player) game can be figured out in the same way. (4c4) (36c9) / (40c13)



3. good job on the map. it's quite well done from all perspectives. Particularly cool that 8 players games mean that each player has a 5 card hand to start.

[Ditocoaf]

Heh... if the XML could be changed so that a game could start with 5 territs per player... that would be so cool. It shouldn't be that hard to do...

perhaps this map (on track to a very early quench) could be slowed down so that XML can be changed meanwhile? That would make this map perfect.

[yeti_c]

1. Don't you think the way you attack should be mentioned in the legend since this isn't exactly a normal map. Obviously, it's via touching cards but you know that people are going to be like, "how does this work?" I don't think dumbing it down in this case is a bad thing or excessive.

Maybe - if WM can find a suitable place for this then OK - if not then I wouldn't want to find space to add it.

2. If my setup of this is correct, the chances of starting with four 2s in a four player game is...

(4 choose 4) times (36 choose 6) divided by (40 choose 10) = (1) times (1947792) / (847660528) = .002297844

which means that in four player games, the chances of me starting with four 2s are about .23% or 2.3 times in 1000 games.

1/4 of the time that player will be first to play and have a +11.


FYI: 847,660,528 is the total number of possible starting positions for one player in a four player game. And, 1,947,792 is the total number of ways to get those four 2s.

Three player (or two player) game can be figured out in the same way. (4c4) (36c9) / (40c13)

Are you saying this is too high - or is that OK?

3. good job on the map. it's quite well done from all perspectives. Particularly cool that 8 players games mean that each player has a 5 card hand to start.

Cheers -> Glad that you noticed that 8 players = 5 cards - no-one else has managed to make that link just yet

C.

[yeti_c]

nice an dtinterestin map ,espicallly since i work in poker....I dont think you should get a bonus for a high card, and what does that mean actually. How is the high card determined?

"High Card" - as you should know - means you have nothing else in your hand. - And you get a bonus for it as otherwise you could get staled out at the beginning of the game - with no armies to deploy - and no chance. (Hence the "standard" 3)

plus i can see a AKQJ 10 straight very easily at the bottom of the map, could you mix that up maybe?

Can you tell me the exact cards you can see for this - and "very easily" is a misnomer -> If you mean you can hold it with 7 territories - is that not the same as saying - I can hold Asia easily? (Except that in this case there will be more borders)

C.

[yeti_c]

(on track to a very early quench)

Not sure if you realise this - but this map is almost a year old...

C.

[WidowMakers]

1. Don't you think the way you attack should be mentioned in the legend since this isn't exactly a normal map. Obviously, it's via touching cards but you know that people are going to be like, "how does this work?" I don't think dumbing it down in this case is a bad thing or excessive.

Maybe - if WM can find a suitable place for this then OK - if not then I wouldn't want to find space to add it.
C.

There is really no space in the image. I would need to redo the entire legend and thus the layout of the cards. I really don't think people will have any issue. Since it does not explain any special attack routes, the basic attack routes would be just like any other map. The ones that touch, border.

WM

[yeti_c]

1. Don't you think the way you attack should be mentioned in the legend since this isn't exactly a normal map. Obviously, it's via touching cards but you know that people are going to be like, "how does this work?" I don't think dumbing it down in this case is a bad thing or excessive.

Maybe - if WM can find a suitable place for this then OK - if not then I wouldn't want to find space to add it.
C.

There is really no space in the image. I would need to redo the entire legend and thus the layout of the cards. I really don't think people will have any issue. Since it does not explain any special attack routes, the basic attack routes would be just like any other map. The ones that touch, border.

WM

I agree - if there's no space - then I don't think it's strictly necessary.

C.

[Ditocoaf]

(on track to a very early quench)

Not sure if you realise this - but this map is almost a year old...

C.

Woah... I just saw the 17 pages, and was thinking mid-40's was usual... but I suppose I should check my facts before speaking, now, shouldn't I? About half of the threads in the final forge are in their forties, but about half are in their late teens. So... I should have actually looked at the date of this thing. Oh well.

[BBoz]

Maybe you could make it where each player starts with a max of 5 cards? (Standard Poker Hand)

It would be possible but it cant be set to pick 5 random cards with the current XML. good shout thou

Have to admit I am not really familiar with the XML restrictions. Are you able to define the number of "Neutrals" based on the number of players? Might could approach it from the other side.

[yeti_c]

Maybe you could make it where each player starts with a max of 5 cards? (Standard Poker Hand)

It would be possible but it cant be set to pick 5 random cards with the current XML. good shout thou

Have to admit I am not really familiar with the XML restrictions. Are you able to define the number of "Neutrals" based on the number of players? Might could approach it from the other side.

Nope - the neutral level is fixed for the map regardless of players.

C.

[BBoz]

Really liking this concept... Hope I can contribute and am not pestering. I did go back and look at all the XML coding info, so have a better understanding of that now.

Was thinking about how to break things up and help to ensure better start to the game play. Here is an idea I had...

If you only have 16 starting locations, you end up with the following breakdowns..
2 Players = 8 Cards Each
3 Players = 5 Cards Each
4 Players = 4 Cards Each
5 Players = 3 Cards Each
6 Players = 2 Cards Each
7 Players = 2 Cards Each
8 Players = 2 Cards Each

This would actually work nicely. Texas Hold'em starts everyone with 2 cards. The only possible player option with more than a poker hand is a 2-player game. Hard to account for that, but you can limit potential hands by having the right neutrals (see below). I also think by varying the number of Neutral armies on certain cards, you can make the difficulty in obtaining the more complex hands more challenging.

The goal is to to minimize the potential of very powerful hands at the start.
By placing Neutrals (suggest maybe 6) on every Ace, J, and 6. (12 cards). This prevents all straights, any Straight flushes and Royal Straights. And also puts 2 cards in the "Royal Flush" range as having a larger number of cards to obtain.

If you made two of the remaining suits of each card neutrals, ensuring at least 2 of each suit have neutrals between the break points.. 2,3,4,5 - 7,8,9,10 (8*2 = 16 Cards) Then do Q and K as all Neutrals 2*4 = 8 Cards. (24 total). Like below. The most you could start with is 2 pairs. (Note this accounts for the total 52 cards. 36 Neutrals always, and 16 potential player placements.)

2 c, s - 7 s,h
3 c, d - 8 c,d
4 d, h - 9 s,d
5 s, h - 10 c, h

K and Q c, s, h, d

Lets say you put these at a standard 3 neutrals.
To get the following bonus would require a minimum of...
Trips = 3 armies
Straight = 6 Armies
Flush = 3 Armies
Full House = 3 Armies
4 of a Kind = 6 Armies
Straight Flush = (6 + 3 + 3) = 12 Armies
Royal Flush = (6+6+3+3) = 18 Armies

One other thing I want to mention about Hand Values. The reason certain hands are more valuable than others in poker is because it's the probability that you will obtain the card you need out of the remaining cards not in play for you. This is what makes the Royal Flush so valuable. In Conquer Club, you aren't drawing to a random card, you are just trying to hold the right 5 cards. As a result, I think you will may have to further adjust the neutrals deployment, remove certain hand types from having value, or change the values to better reflect the difficulty of obtaining or holding the hand and maybe even re-arrange the cards so that holding certain hands would be even more difficult.

Going to post this for now and see what I can think of for balance on the award values if people like this general concept.

[edbeard]

1. Don't you think the way you attack should be mentioned in the legend since this isn't exactly a normal map. Obviously, it's via touching cards but you know that people are going to be like, "how does this work?" I don't think dumbing it down in this case is a bad thing or excessive.

Maybe - if WM can find a suitable place for this then OK - if not then I wouldn't want to find space to add it.
C.

There is really no space in the image. I would need to redo the entire legend and thus the layout of the cards. I really don't think people will have any issue. Since it does not explain any special attack routes, the basic attack routes would be just like any other map. The ones that touch, border.

WM

that's fine. I mean you could put it at the top of the image, but it'd look ugly.

Are you saying this is too high - or is that OK?

I'm not giving an opinion on that. Just the facts, ma'am.

[Ditocoaf]

I still favor the option of expanding the XML to help this map.

Other maps would also benefit from an option of a set number of starting territs per player. For instance: conquest maps with only 1 starting point, no matter how many players.

[edbeard]

if the xml can be changed to make each player start out with a random 5 cards, then that might put this map over the top for me.