Thailand

[Victor Sullivan]

Wait, could you refresh me why it was decided that BKK be +2?

[grifftron]

Wait, could you refresh me why it was decided that BKK be +2?

The population of BKK is around 10 million. The next biggest city population wise would be Chiang Mai I believe which is at about 500k. So BKK controls all of Thailand, when my students talk about what they are gonna do once they are done with school, 9/10 say they will go to BKK to work. therefore BKK should have a big influence on this map, it also starts off as a neutral making it harder to grab... but it will make a very interesting grab especially in closely battled games.

If you wanted to know more gameplay wise why it was a +2 please feel free to PM FarangDemon, or just search threw the posts, i know the talk on it is in there somewhere!

-griff

[FarangDemon]

Wait, could you refresh me why it was decided that BKK be +2?

one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

So it's +2 because we agreed with Ian's comment. Like Griff was saying, Bangkok Metro is represented as one territory ("BKK") on this map, but in reality it comprises 6 or so populous and wealthy provinces. So we'd like Bangkok Metro to be worth +2 to reflect this. I have xml coding for Bangkok set to 4 neutrals for right now. I'll change it to whatever the experts think is best. I have the ship set to 3 neutrals and Lopburi set to 2 neutrals.

[grifftron]

Thanks FD

[FarangDemon]

Anything else required for Graphics stamp?

Ian, RedBaron, anyone?

[AndyDufresne]

Almost there...


--Andy

[Victor Sullivan]

Almost there...


--Andy

I'm sure they appreciate your helpful and explicit comment, Andy, dear. I suggest you say what's on your mind before this hits FF. Comments like "Almost there..." don't really do anything to help anything, though I respect your commenting in the Foundry more.

Wait, could you refresh me why it was decided that BKK be +2?

one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

So it's +2 because we agreed with Ian's comment. Like Griff was saying, Bangkok Metro is represented as one territory ("BKK") on this map, but in reality it comprises 6 or so populous and wealthy provinces. So we'd like Bangkok Metro to be worth +2 to reflect this. I have xml coding for Bangkok set to 4 neutrals for right now. I'll change it to whatever the experts think is best. I have the ship set to 3 neutrals and Lopburi set to 2 neutrals.

I'm afraid you're misinterpreting ian... He suggested a +2 auto-deploy or increasing the superbonus, Phak Klang, by +1. He never suggested a +2 bonus for one single territory... I suggest changing it to a +2 auto-deploy, like he said, as opposed to a +2 manual-deploy. We might need to get a gameplay cartog in here.

-Sully

[grifftron]

We already had that discussion Victor, I am sure FD will explain it to you once again why we took the +2 instead of the auto deploy if you are too lazy to go back and read through the actual thread. If we have issues with it later or the mods are concerned about this more we can take it up again, but we already agreed that was best, i remember the mods giving us OK on the normal +2 for BKK.

And why you bad mouthing Andy, he said its almost there, what more do you want? thats enough for me and this is mine and FDs map. Hes a legend around here so be a little bit more respectful.

-griff

[isaiah40]

Well this is looking really good!! Good job guys!! As far as I'm concerned everything is readable and clear, color blind test checks out (yes I double checked it). So if I was able to I'd stamped this the Graphics stamp ! Just my humble opinion of course.

[FarangDemon]

Almost there...


--Andy

I'm sure they appreciate your helpful and explicit comment, Andy, dear. I suggest you say what's on your mind before this hits FF. Comments like "Almost there..." don't really do anything to help anything, though I respect your commenting in the Foundry more.

Wait, could you refresh me why it was decided that BKK be +2?

one thing on my mind: bangkok so dominates thailand in almost every way (in a fashion that doesn't happen in major western countries - not even france) that, having removed the inset, a +1 bonus hardly seems sufficient - it's not even the equal of the castle in castle lands. doing something like the aforementioned castle (which gives +2 autodeploy) or increasing the phak klang superbonus from +1 to +2 might be helpful here.

So it's +2 because we agreed with Ian's comment. Like Griff was saying, Bangkok Metro is represented as one territory ("BKK") on this map, but in reality it comprises 6 or so populous and wealthy provinces. So we'd like Bangkok Metro to be worth +2 to reflect this. I have xml coding for Bangkok set to 4 neutrals for right now. I'll change it to whatever the experts think is best. I have the ship set to 3 neutrals and Lopburi set to 2 neutrals.

I'm afraid you're misinterpreting ian... He suggested a +2 auto-deploy or increasing the superbonus, Phak Klang, by +1. He never suggested a +2 bonus for one single territory... I suggest changing it to a +2 auto-deploy, like he said, as opposed to a +2 manual-deploy. We might need to get a gameplay cartog in here.

-Sully

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=468&t=100058&start=180#p2826996

Ok I reread the whole thing. We said we'd do the +2 auto-deploy. We had a version that said +2 autodeploy. Then we had a version that didn't say +2 auto-deploy, it just said +2. Then I said we changed it to be +2 for BKK, +2 for Central Plains and +5 for Phak Klang. Then griff posted, then Evil Dimwit said he had no more concerns. We can ask Evil Dimwit to double check.

However, now that you mention it, I do have some concerns about Bangkok being +2. Would every game devolve into an all-out mad dash for Bangkok to the neglect of other bonuses? Maybe it would be better just changing BKK to be +1 and we'll keep Phak Klang at +5.

I don't know about grifftron but I don't want any auto deploys. I want the map to have the feel of a standard country map, which it for the most part is, excepting the boat bonus.

[grifftron]

FD i agree with the no auto deploy, i like how it is now and i think it would play out just fine how it is, but if some mod wants to double check that for us that would be fine with me as well.

Well this is looking really good!! Good job guys!! As far as I'm concerned everything is readable and clear, color blind test checks out (yes I double checked it). So if I was able to I'd stamped this the Graphics stamp ! Just my humble opinion of course.

Kind words, thanks isaiah, appreciate it.

-griff

[RedBaron0]

Couple more things we're noticing.

Satun, do you really need the line pointing? won't it fit in the territory?
The rivers are kinda pixelly, especially the ones that are impassible. The outer river isn't too bad.
The symbol in the top corner is kinda lost in the border, how bout you nudge it down and to the right so it's just over the water.
I know you've discussed the sea paths, but they could be better. You could even take them out all together and try just using docks.

The last thing is a personal preference, do with it what you will, you signature on the small map looks better, you should do the same on the large.

[MarshalNey]

However, now that you mention it, I do have some concerns about Bangkok being +2. Would every game devolve into an all-out mad dash for Bangkok to the neglect of other bonuses? Maybe it would be better just changing BKK to be +1 and we'll keep Phak Klang at +5.

As long as BKK is at 4 neutrals (or higher), I don't think that this is an issue. BKK borders 6 regions- not counting the HTMS Chakri or the airport- which makes it a vulnerable spot. In order to keep it, a player would have to invest a lot of troops. A cursed treasure, in my opinion.

At a +1 bonus with 4 neutrals and 6 bordering regions, it might be ignored.

On the other hand, I may be unclear about the Superbonus structure. Is the +5 for Phak Klang in addition to the bonus for BKK and the Central Plains? That is, if you hold BKK and the Central Plains you'd get +9? Or do you get +5?

If the former, then BKK isn't the problem I think so much as the Phak Blang bonus.

Marshal Ney

[grifftron]

Couple more things we're noticing.

Satun, do you really need the line pointing? won't it fit in the territory?
The rivers are kinda pixelly, especially the ones that are impassible. The outer river isn't too bad.
The symbol in the top corner is kinda lost in the border, how bout you nudge it down and to the right so it's just over the water.
I know you've discussed the sea paths, but they could be better. You could even take them out all together and try just using docks.

The last thing is a personal preference, do with it what you will, you signature on the small map looks better, you should do the same on the large.

I fit Satun in, that was fine... I changed the look of the rivers, less pixally now. I also changed the look of our signatures

I have problems with the other 2 issues tho and here is my arguments for both.
1. "The Symbol" is the king of Thailand symbol, it would be very disrespectful if his symbol was under anything including on this map, his symbol should be in the upper left hand (or right hand) corner of this map, I have resized it so that it fits in the upper left hand corner without going over the map boarder, its a lot smaller but if you think it looks better then it should stay there.
2. Firstly it was my thoughts to have ports, and that was what i was going to do, but then it was raised by CC players that it wouldn't be clear enough where they connected, so i added the dots, and those still were not very clear said the CC community, so then after that i was advised to use just lines to make it as clear as possible where they connect so that this map will be easily played and understood by all, if i am made to change to ports i will do this, but if these lines are accepted i will leave them, i just don't want to change it back and forth if there are issues raised when i change it back to ports again.

anyways here is what i have, i will hold off on the small map until i can get this big map OK'd

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[FarangDemon]

However, now that you mention it, I do have some concerns about Bangkok being +2. Would every game devolve into an all-out mad dash for Bangkok to the neglect of other bonuses? Maybe it would be better just changing BKK to be +1 and we'll keep Phak Klang at +5.

As long as BKK is at 4 neutrals (or higher), I don't think that this is an issue. BKK borders 6 regions- not counting the HTMS Chakri or the airport- which makes it a vulnerable spot. In order to keep it, a player would have to invest a lot of troops. A cursed treasure, in my opinion.

At a +1 bonus with 4 neutrals and 6 bordering regions, it might be ignored.

On the other hand, I may be unclear about the Superbonus structure. Is the +5 for Phak Klang in addition to the bonus for BKK and the Central Plains? That is, if you hold BKK and the Central Plains you'd get +9? Or do you get +5?

If the former, then BKK isn't the problem I think so much as the Phak Blang bonus.

Marshal Ney

We want to mean that +5 is the total you get from having Phak Klang (overrides Central Plains and BKK bonus). So yeah, the only issue we meant was the +2 for BKK alone.

Appreciate your feedback. I agree with you now, it is so hard to defend, that it's ok to make it +2 bonus. I was going to make Bangkok 5 neutrals. Do you think 4 is better?

[MarshalNey]

Appreciate your feedback. I agree with you now, it is so hard to defend, that it's ok to make it +2 bonus. I was going to make Bangkok 5 neutrals. Do you think 4 is better?

I think 5 is fine as well. That certainly doesn't put BKK out of consideration but makes it far from a juicy plum.

Marshal Ney

[Industrial Helix]

The only complaint that comes to mind is that the river fades into nothingness when put against the tan colored background. I mean, there's points where one can barely see it. Darken it, put a shadow on it... its your call, but do something.

[RedBaron0]

I have problems with the other 2 issues tho and here is my arguments for both.
1. "The Symbol" is the king of Thailand symbol, it would be very disrespectful if his symbol was under anything including on this map, his symbol should be in the upper left hand (or right hand) corner of this map, I have resized it so that it fits in the upper left hand corner without going over the map boarder, its a lot smaller but if you think it looks better then it should stay there.
2. Firstly it was my thoughts to have ports, and that was what i was going to do, but then it was raised by CC players that it wouldn't be clear enough where they connected, so i added the dots, and those still were not very clear said the CC community, so then after that i was advised to use just lines to make it as clear as possible where they connect so that this map will be easily played and understood by all, if i am made to change to ports i will do this, but if these lines are accepted i will leave them, i just don't want to change it back and forth if there are issues raised when i change it back to ports again.

First the King of Thailand's symbol I thought was fine in size, it just was sort-of meshing with the exterior border and would benefit from being away from it, what you have now is fine, but you could go back to the previous size and just move it a bit so it isn't over the border. You could have moved down some and to the right a bit to be just over the nonplayable area and water and still be basically in the top left hand corner. That's up to you though.

In their current form the paths I believe are drawing the eye away from the rest of the map, they are just to pronounced. Okay the docks are out, but perhaps just a hint of a dash, long lines with a short gap, and perhaps lowering the opacity a shade or two will do the trick?

And I'm with Helix on the rivers too, in fact if you could get the river to look like the Mekong River off to the south in the unplayable area you could be set.

[grifftron]

I have problems with the other 2 issues tho and here is my arguments for both.
1. "The Symbol" is the king of Thailand symbol, it would be very disrespectful if his symbol was under anything including on this map, his symbol should be in the upper left hand (or right hand) corner of this map, I have resized it so that it fits in the upper left hand corner without going over the map boarder, its a lot smaller but if you think it looks better then it should stay there.
2. Firstly it was my thoughts to have ports, and that was what i was going to do, but then it was raised by CC players that it wouldn't be clear enough where they connected, so i added the dots, and those still were not very clear said the CC community, so then after that i was advised to use just lines to make it as clear as possible where they connect so that this map will be easily played and understood by all, if i am made to change to ports i will do this, but if these lines are accepted i will leave them, i just don't want to change it back and forth if there are issues raised when i change it back to ports again.

First the King of Thailand's symbol I thought was fine in size, it just was sort-of meshing with the exterior border and would benefit from being away from it, what you have now is fine, but you could go back to the previous size and just move it a bit so it isn't over the border. You could have moved down some and to the right a bit to be just over the nonplayable area and water and still be basically in the top left hand corner. That's up to you though.

In their current form the paths I believe are drawing the eye away from the rest of the map, they are just to pronounced. Okay the docks are out, but perhaps just a hint of a dash, long lines with a short gap, and perhaps lowering the opacity a shade or two will do the trick?

And I'm with Helix on the rivers too, in fact if you could get the river to look like the Mekong River off to the south in the unplayable area you could be set.

Yeah OK i will make the rivers darker, i really liked the look i did have but i did see them too pixally like you said...

I will try out the dash for the river connections and see what i can do to make them look good and clear to connections.

As for the kings symbol, i will leave it the size it is now because i already tried to bring it in the area the you suggested before and to me it was too far down, if it is OK how it is now i would rather leave it there.

-griff

[grifftron]

Used the same connection lines i just dashed them and made them lighter... also fixed up the Mekong river, let me know if these meet the standards.

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[FarangDemon]

Used the same connection lines i just dashed them and made them lighter... also fixed up the Mekong river, let me know if these meet the standards.

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

How about putting white outline (there is a technical term for this I can't remember, when you just specify how many pixels out you want to project a certain color from a given selection) around each of the dashes in the boat connection lines? Might make it stand out more, which I think could be good.

[grifftron]

They didn't want it to stand out FD, that was the problem, they want it less seen so that it gives more attention to the map, that is what i understood anyways.

[Industrial Helix]

Ok, rivers look better darker, but now the pixelation stands out more. Are you using a soft glow or anything on it? That might help.

Stickied.

[grifftron]

Ok, rivers look better darker, but now the pixelation stands out more. Are you using a soft glow or anything on it? That might help.

Stickied.

OK well i was using a soft glow on both versions and it was looking pixally still, this has been a big challenge for me these rivers, what i did now was left the 2 impassible rivers the way they were and put some final touches on them to make them as less pixally as i could, and i changed back to the older look i had of the mekong on both versions, made it a little darker and put some touch ups on both, let me know what you think, i hope this meets the standard because my skills are being streched to the limits here! ... i really like how the rivers look now, not pixally to me now

Click image to enlarge.

Click image to enlarge.

-griff

[natty dread]

The sea looks sort of lavender. IMO you could adjust the hue somewhat. Maybe it's just me, but I feel a sea colour should be on the green side of blue, rather than on the purple side...