Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

[RjBeals]

the sandy beach is much better. I would just suggest working on the details of it a bit more. The bevel texture on the beach is too large. And maybe adjust some glow around the island to make it look like shallow water. Maybe add a palm tree or somehting. But nice update.

[WidowMakers]

Looks really good. It has come along way. Only thing I can put fort as a suggestion is maybe getting rid of the land bridges. Why not just make the pieces of land touch? I just think they look to sharp or perfect for the overall look of the map. (except in the very middle. Keep those)

I removed the bridge and replaced land between 1 and 3 of Lyonesse
Just an idea.

[ender516]

Ok, we've taken the suggestions on board and changed the legend to a sandy beach, we've also updated the fonts on the legend and on the scrap.
In the next version the numbers will be replaced with greek characters to give it more of a greek feel.

So what about this? Getting better? Almost there?

Changes made

New Legend Background
Updated font on legend and Scrap

Changes in next version
Changing territ numbers to Greek Alphabet
How does this look? Do you prefer numbers or the greek equivilent?

Premier2k

The Greek letters are novel and worth considering, provided that they appear properly in drop-down menus (and, less importantly, can be handled by add-ons and plug-ins like BOB). You will want to be sure that the collation (sorting) order of these characters is what you would expect, and corresponds properly to the order of territories on the map. Spelling out the names of the Greek characters after the actual character in the XML might be helpful to those unfamiliar with that alphabet or unable to generate those characters who wish to chat with their teammates about a particular territory. So the full name in the XML might be "Thule γ (gamma)".

[MrBenn]

You need to be wary about some of the extended character set... I tried to use a ŷ (I think) in the XML for Wales, and successfully crashed the drop-down lists and BOB... (although it's possible that this could have been caused by a trailing space in an early version of the XML). The other thing to consider with the use of extended characters, is that not all computers have all the different extended character sets - using the earlier example from Wales, Llŷn displayed as Ll□n on my computer at work before I amended it to Llyn.

[RedBaron0]

That's too bad if the XML doesn't like the character set, I must admit I like the look of the Greek letters on the land instead of the numbers.

I agree about the bridges, make the land connect instead.

I'm not sold on the beach, clear it up a little bit add a palm tree like Rj said, or maybe a siren.

[ender516]

You need to be wary about some of the extended character set... I tried to use a ŷ (I think) in the XML for Wales, and successfully crashed the drop-down lists and BOB... (although it's possible that this could have been caused by a trailing space in an early version of the XML). The other thing to consider with the use of extended characters, is that not all computers have all the different extended character sets - using the earlier example from Wales, Llŷn displayed as Ll□n on my computer at work before I amended it to Llyn.

Here is something I found related to the extended character problem (the link is xml questions, if you want to see the whole conversation, but I have quoted the important part below:

i asked it in the gulf thread though i am not sure if people go there

so are these characters invalid cause the check tool says they are

è é î
....

I put the following line into the very top of the xml file for Das Schloß and everything works OK.

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

See if that helps.

Now, the problem here is that ISO 8859-1 covers mostly Western European languages. ISO 8859-7 is intended to cover Latin/Greek, so perhaps the following would do the trick:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-7"?>

Anyone know how to test this out?

[NemesisChild]

OK guys

I have been playing with this this morning and found as lng as i save my xml as Unicode it passes through the Map inspection tools opn the site even witht the greek Characters included

Only one that seemed to have an issue was the Java based one developed by Jota , that didn't seem to be specific to the fact that i had greek alphas in there , it just didn't like unicode xml files

I didn't have to add any special encoding as Suggested by Ender

I put the following line into the very top of the xml file for Das Schloß and everything works OK.

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-1"?>

See if that helps.

Now, the problem here is that ISO 8859-1 covers mostly Western European languages. ISO 8859-7 is intended to cover Latin/Greek, so perhaps the following would do the trick:

Code: Select all

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="iso-8859-7"?>

Is there any tool available that will allow me to test the effect on the dropdowns?
or even BOB

[Premier2k]

Nemesischild is correct and the XML will parse fine.
I don't think there will be an effect on the drop downs per se as as far as I'm aware the drop down is just a simple common control which will take the values directly from the XML, but MrBenn was correct in that not all computers will have the extended character set. This may be why they won't display correctly. This could be an issue. I don't see a way around it though.

Ideally, I'd like to get some feedback from LackAttack on how this will work.

Prem.

[RedBaron0]

Could add parenthesis to each territory with the English spelling of the Greek character, it wouldn't even be that long, since there isn't a Greek letter spelling longer than 7 letters.

So it'd look like this if you were reinforcing Thule if you had all 9 territories:

Thule α(alpha)
Thule β(beta)
Thule γ(gamma)
Thule δ(delta)
Thule ε(epsilon)
Thule ζ(zeta)
Thule η(eta)
Thule θ(theta)
Thule ι(iota)

Hopefully the drop down will recognize that α, β, γ... etc. are characters in order. I took a look to see if there might be another option, say using ancient Greek numerals, but they used basically their letters for numbers. Only difference is the 6 which called a digamma and looked like and "F" A little research tells me mathematics on paper in Ancient Greece was confusing... to say the least. They used abacuses for everything.

Another way you could get around the character set is you put along the right side the Greek alphabet and what is reads like in English at least down till the highest letter you need, which would be the Greek letter nu.

α - alpha
β - beta
γ - gamma
δ - delta
ε - epsilon
ζ - zeta
η - eta
θ - theta
ι - iota
κ - kappa
λ - lambda
μ - mu
ν - nu

Lets realize too that one of the biggest tenets in the Foundry is function over form. If this is going to be a major problem now, what happens if the XML blows up for those with computers that can't read the characters? You've got a map that half the community can play, which is bad, and you have to go back change the XML and the graphic back to Arabic numerals, and then any Greek accent is missing. I really like the look with the Greek letters, BUT putting the map through this kind of problematic circumstance would be awful. Not too mention issues that will inevitably arise from games started when players have to deadbeat out because they can't play...

Premier2k, and NemesisChild, you guys are the creators, you have final say whether or not the change is permanent. You could probably find another way to accent the map with Greekishness, it doesn't have to be the way I suggested.

[NemesisChild]

Baron

I'd rather have a go at it now and see if it works, rather than give up
we are looking into a way to test it so we know if its a goer or not, its an easy change back to latin numerals.

the plan is to use the parenthesis as you suggested.

As we stand we have had no issues, but that doesn't mean it will work in the end but i hope it does

Nem

[RedBaron0]

Good deal then, lets see the map with all the Greek lettering and the few other tweaks suggested and you'll both be sitting pretty

[Premier2k]

Hi all!
Version 33 is here! (at last)
We have incorporated the greek characters into the map. A lot of people have mentioned the scroll is out of place, so, after various iterations we think we've come up with something we like.


Changes made

Added Greek characters
Moved the sub title to the bottom
Thule contintent name move
Recentered the Title (to off center) to allow bigger legend text
Modified the legend

The Map!

Click image to enlarge.

[ender516]

Hi all!
Version 33 is here! (at last)
We have incorporated the greek characters into the map. A lot of people have mentioned the scroll is out of place, so, after various iterations we think we've come up with something we like.


Changes made

Added Greek characters
Moved the sub title to the bottom
Thule contintent name move
Recentered the Title (to off center) to allow bigger legend text
Modified the legend

The Greek letters look fine, but I find the new legend a little hard to read on the large map, and very hard to read on the small. Perhaps a brighter font foreground colour to get more contrast with the dark glow behind it would help. Either that, or maybe just a straight clean dark font to contrast with the ocean.

[Tisha]

greek letters will be fun in team games.. trying to communicate

[ender516]

greek letters will be fun in team games.. trying to communicate

Yes, but that has been thought of: the dropdowns will include the names of the Greek letters spelled out in English - alpha, beta, gamma, delta...

[Premier2k]

Version 34 is here!
We have incorporated the greek characters into the map. A lot of people have mentioned the scroll is out of place, so, after various iterations we think we've come up with something we like. We have now modified the text so that it stands out against the sea better.

In the next version, Poseidon will now bombard boats instead of Ports and vce versa

Changes made

Text colour improved
Boats tweaked
Mariny contintent name move
Modified symbols
New legend dock
New Lightning bolt
Added compass

The Map!

Click image to enlarge.

[ender516]

The text colour is a substantial improvement on both maps, which are now quite readable (for me, anyway). The new lightning bolt is better, and the compass is a nice way to fill the gap and draw the eye to the subtitle. Nice work.

[RedBaron0]

Look'n good, the compass is a great addition... always seems to be a good thing to add to any map to fill in space or draw the eye to another part of a map.

Love the additional Greek letters on the boat sails starting at the bottom of the alphabet, Omega is just a cool letter!

Might want to change your signatures in the bottom corner to a similar font/color as the legend, it's tough to read, especially on the small map.

[Premier2k]

Yeah, we'll change the signatures at the bottom to be more visible.
We're glad you like the update.

So in the next update:

Poseidon will now bombard boats instead of Ports and vce versa
Signatures will be more visible

Hopefully, we're on our way to the Final Forge!

[NemesisChild]

Thanks for all the good input guys, its good to get some interest especially as we had to stall development for a few months while I settled into a new job.

I have just completed the next set of updates as suggested (more or less) and Passed them on to Prem so with a bit of luck they will go up in a few hours.

Please keep an eye out for any mistakes no matter how minor and let me know, I may not always fix it but at least I can say why i didn't

Here's hoping Prem can get the greek letters passed through in the XML

Nem

[ender516]

Say, does anyone know what a compass rose would look like with Greek letters? The English to Ancient Greek online translator I found did not know any of the compass directions, but English to Modern Greek gives the following:

north = βορράς, βόρειος
west = δύση, δυτικός
east = ανατολή
south = νότος, νότιος

which suggests N => Β (Beta), W => Δ (Delta), E => Α (Alpha), and S => Ν (Nu).

And although I am perhaps as big a fan of the letter Omega as RedBaron0, I note that the four ships could easily be designated by the cardinal directions North (currently Sigma), West (Psi?), East (Omega), and South (Pi). You could even rotate the compass rose about 30 degrees counterclockwise to make the ships even closer to the cardinal points.

[NemesisChild]

OK
I have looked into the Greek compass and it looks like they didn't use the traditional N, S, E, W which isn't surprising, in fact its quite an interesting subject when you look into it.


In Greek mythology, the Anemoi (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds") were wind gods who were each ascribed a cardinal direction, from which their respective winds came,

• Boreas (Greek: Βορέας, Boréas) was the Greek god of the cold north wind
  
• Notus (Greek Νότος, Nótos) was the Greek god of the south wind.
  
• Eurus (Greek: Εύρος, Eúros) was the Greek deity representing the unlucky east wind.
  
• Zephyrus, or just Zephyr (Greek: Ζέφυρος, Zéphuros) is the Greek god of the west wind.

So I'm Guessing we can use
N = β (Beta)
E = Ε (Epsilon)
S = N (Nu)
W = Z (Zeta)

I'm not sure how easy it will be to knock these into the compass as it is a single image.
and to be honest the Letters are a bit boring,

If it works then how would we represent it on the boats Names in the XML
would Boat Σ (Sigma) become Boat B(Beta) or Boat B(Boreas) and so on for the other boats in the cardinal directions

If this works I would look at brining in the Ω Omega and π Pi symbols in on the Temple Entrances to replace the current Alpha and Beta Symbols

All this of course depends on whether or not we can get the greek letters through the game engine without everything making a big smokey bang, the last thing I want is to see a bunch of '?' all over the dropdowns and have people complaining about it.
We have requested info from the CC gurus and are awaiting guidance.. no idea how long that might take but we will endeavour to continue until told otherwise.

[RedBaron0]

Could just name the ships:

Boreas
Notus
Eurus
Zephyrus

And kinda get the same effect. I think it will be confusing on the compass to see a "N" represent south, of course it doesn't have any bearing on gameplay and is just an aesthetic addition. Could just put the compass rose on the map sans "NSEW" just make it a little bigger to fill the missing space where the letters were.

Omega and Pi will be great to move over to the Temple.

[Premier2k]

We've made a few changes for the next version. I have concerns regarding the use of greek characters in the map and how they will display in the drop down boxes. So, Nemesischild has come up with a solution to use the english named equivilent for the symbols, i.e. alpha, beta, theta etc.. We have a snippet of how this is going to look, we quite like this and it solves the problem we have.



Premier2k

[ender516]

OK
I have looked into the Greek compass and it looks like they didn't use the traditional N, S, E, W which isn't surprising, in fact its quite an interesting subject when you look into it.


In Greek mythology, the Anemoi (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds") were wind gods who were each ascribed a cardinal direction, from which their respective winds came,

• Boreas (Greek: Βορέας, Boréas) was the Greek god of the cold north wind
  
• Notus (Greek Νότος, Nótos) was the Greek god of the south wind.
  
• Eurus (Greek: Εύρος, Eúros) was the Greek deity representing the unlucky east wind.
  
• Zephyrus, or just Zephyr (Greek: Ζέφυρος, Zéphuros) is the Greek god of the west wind.

Nice research. The wind god names would add an authentic patina. (It looks like the modern Greeks have kept the names for north and south, but changed east and west. Intriguing.)

So I'm Guessing we can use
N = β (Beta)
E = Ε (Epsilon)
S = N (Nu)
W = Z (Zeta)

I'm not sure how easy it will be to knock these into the compass as it is a single image.
and to be honest the Letters are a bit boring,

Yes, I was disappointed with the set I found, because 3 out of 4 just look like the latin letters. This set is even more ordinary.

If it works then how would we represent it on the boats Names in the XML
would Boat Σ (Sigma) become Boat B(Beta) or Boat B(Boreas) and so on for the other boats in the cardinal directions

If this works I would look at brining in the Ω Omega and π Pi symbols in on the Temple Entrances to replace the current Alpha and Beta Symbols

I like the idea of bringing omega and pi in, since they may be the most recognizable Greek letters among non-Greek readers.