Atlantis - v43 - BETA - P32[D,Gp,Gr,FF,XML,BETA]

[ender516]

We've made a few changes for the next version. I have concerns regarding the use of greek characters in the map and how they will display in the drop down boxes. So, Nemesischild has come up with a solution to use the english named equivilent for the symbols, i.e. alpha, beta, theta etc.. We have a snippet of how this is going to look, we quite like this and it solves the problem we have.



Premier2k

This looks like a safe way forward. Let me just note that in your sample image, Ys has two territories name eta, and Lemuria's beta territory is actually spelled with an initial beta, which looks out of place and, if copied to the XML, might cause the problem we are trying to avoid. Also, this looks like a place of the large map: I hope the names can remain legible when scaled down.

[NemesisChild]

Good spot on the duplicate eta their Ender, we had completely missed it, it should have been iota (but I didn't have one!). I do now

As for the font being readable in small, I think I have a handle on it, on the large map the font is 3pt and on the small map it is only reduced to 2.5pt so hopefully it should be ok

Prem has tested a sample for me and says its fine, I have seen the resolution he uses on his machine and if he can read it on that then every one other than blind people will be fine

N.

[ender516]

Good spot on the duplicate eta their Ender, we had completely missed it, it should have been iota (but I didn't have one!). I do now

As for the font being readable in small, I think I have a handle on it, on the large map the font is 3pt and on the small map it is only reduced to 2.5pt so hopefully it should be ok

Prem has tested a sample for me and says its fine, I have seen the resolution he uses on his machine and if he can read it on that then every one other than blind people will be fine

N.

Here's another quibble: on Lemuria, you have skipped from lambda to nu to sigma. I can see that mu and nu may be too similar (especially in that font) to use both, but what about xi, omicron, pi and rho?

[NemesisChild]

Here's another quibble: on Lemuria, you have skipped from lambda to nu to sigma. I can see that mu and nu may be too similar (especially in that font) to use both, but what about xi, omicron, pi and rho?

I skipped mu because of the island of the same name already on the map would have continent and territory with same names (sort of).
Why I went for Sigma? no major reason other than it was the first one that popped into my head when I realised that mu wouldn't work so well.

oh here is what the small map looks like now
Not an official update , just a view of the font size, let me know if its working ok?




Nem

[ender516]

Here's another quibble: on Lemuria, you have skipped from lambda to nu to sigma. I can see that mu and nu may be too similar (especially in that font) to use both, but what about xi, omicron, pi and rho?

I skipped mu because of the island of the same name already on the map would have continent and territory with same names (sort of).
Why I went for Sigma? no major reason other than it was the first one that popped into my head when I realised that mu wouldn't work so well.

oh here is what the small map looks like now
Not an official update , just a view of the font size, let me know if its working ok?




Nem

Oh, just looking at the sample, I forgot the continent Mu. Another chance for confusion well avoided. The small text works well enough for me.

Now I see Kamuri Kandam goes from lambda to sigma, which should probably just be nu for consistency. All in all, though, I like the way these names work out. Recognizable yet novel.

[ender516]

Duplicate post deleted.

[Premier2k]

Version 35 is here!
We now have the greek words for the territory names which after significant discussion with Ender we have decided this is the best route to go down. We are really happy with this version and I'm starting work on the XML, which is basically done but needs adjustment for names.

So we're now hoping to get our GFX stamp! Who stamps that by the way
Big thanks goes to Ender and RedBaron for help with this final few drafts, your comments have been invaluble in pushing us in the right direction!

Changes made

English names for Greek characters
Clarified font on small map
Fixed some minor border gaps
Repositioned some circles to allow for text

The Map!

Click image to enlarge.

[MrBenn]

I have a real concern about the decision to switch to the greek-letter naming convention. I think that what the thematic gain will be lost in the conversion to gameplay functionality - regardless of the outcome of the extended-character-set XML viability

[Premier2k]

So what would you prefer? numbers?

[MrBenn]

So what would you prefer? numbers?

If you're going down the route of adding text labels to the territories, why not give each one a distinct name? Otherwise I think the alpha-bete-delta-gamma labels add a layer of confusion

[Premier2k]

I'm afraid I have to disagree, and I think I speak for Nemesischild as well but we have been through this with Ender and often RedBaron in depth. We think this adds something different to the maps out there. Yes, it might be a little more difficult, but all you have to do is pay a little more attention. We don't want a map that is similar to every other map out there.

We don't want to change the names to random names that have no bearing to anything remotely greek. If anything, that takes something away from the point of the map!

Why is Thule Alpha/Mu Alpha any more confusing that Thule 1/Mu 1?

Premier2k

[NemesisChild]

If you're going down the route of adding text labels to the territories, why not give each one a distinct name? Otherwise I think the alpha-bete-delta-gamma labels add a layer of confusion

As soon as we went with the English text vesion of this map I mentioned to prem that I thought someone would raise the point of "if you can fit text on there then why can't you stick unique names on there"
Prems exact response was... and I quote... " beacause we bloody well don't want to" and to be honest I agree , I am more in favour of the Greek alphabetic symbols myself cos I think it looks awesome and is something completely new to the site, if the site can't handle it then thats fair enough,However if it is discovered that the site will support thse characters then I will revert to them in the blink of an eye if I can.

However: Out side of that we have bent, agreed, molded and submitted to just about every whim of the community up to now with the belief that they were pushing to have a map that that they would play and enjoy. This is our first map and we may have approached it in a naieve manner (seems that way nearly a year on) but we have learned and grown as cartographers and intend fully to produce more maps in the future. There has to be a point where the people designing and developing a map get to draw a line and have a final decision and seeing as Mr Benn is the only person at the moment that seems to have found fault with the alpha beta gamma wording.. I am making that decision( unless I am proven wrong) as the designer (with copious amounts of help).
I think in the end I have to agree with Prem in that Thule Alpha , Thule Beta , Thule Gamma is no less confusing than Thule 1 , Thule 2 . Thule 3 and actually most likely looks a bit better.

In fact it is no worse than the territs of Feudal war and that has passed through the system with little issue already and is about to get an epic sequel.

I am not trying to upset people but we have done some serious work on this, as does any person interested in creating a map, we have accepted input and adapted in accordance with everyone and anyone , we employed outside help to add final varnish (cheers Sam) and tweaks(ender you were a God send). If the map is not of a quality sufficient to be played on then state that , if it is a personal dislike of a particular element of the map then say so but be mature enough to allow public opinion to outweigh that but, if there is a more obvious reason I have missed then please let me know as I cannot honestly think what more it is we need to bend and mold to get what we have done passed through the stringent and exacting stantards of the Forge.

Please accept my apologies for my abrupt and irritated manner but I feel the map was judged without reading through the existing comments and input from well known map makers.
I believe if the decision on the acceptance of a map falls on a single person then the whole pretence of the forum and forge approach is flawed. I believed it allowed popular input and decision to guide the quenching of a map.. I suppose that must be the Naievety I mentioned earlier surfacing again

Please have a look at the map, judge it on the Graphical merits and the discussions that have been on going, If it is not acceptable to the community as a whole then fine, we are happy to continue looking at it(erm... we may need help her!)

Again apologies for my harshness but I may be feeling a little agrieved.

Nem.

p.s If ther are graphical changes that need doing I am more than happy to look at them

[ender516]

I am behind NemesisChildand Premier2k 100% on this. As another example, albeit one that was slapped together rather than forged, Classic Shapes uses names like F2 and O4. And frankly, I prefer a name which gives me a hint of just where the territory is located to an arbitrary one which tells me nothing, especially when it has no basis in reality. Function trumps form, n'est-ce pas? I can learn the names of real territories on maps that reflect real life, but why would I clutter my brain with fifty or sixty imaginary countries?

[NemesisChild]

Thanks for the support Ender

Can we have a clarification on exactly where we are with this now please?

Nem

[Premier2k]

Well as far as I'm concerned we're just waiting to get our graphics stamp. We have rejected MrBenn's idea and there seem to be no other concerns about the map. So according to the handbook we seem to have fulfilled the criteria for the stamp!



Premier2k

[ender516]

Well as far as I'm concerned we're just waiting to get our graphics stamp. We have rejected MrBenn's idea and there seem to be no other concerns about the map. So according to the handbook we seem to have fulfilled the criteria for the stamp!



Premier2k

You may be running up against the following General Rule:

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

In aid of this, I made a mention/link of this map over in the World Cities thread, cleverly tying it to the issue of naming regions. I hope this helps.

[00iCon]

You may be running up against the following General Rule:

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

In aid of this, I made a mention/link of this map over in the World Cities thread, cleverly tying it to the issue of naming regions. I hope this helps.

It worked

[ender516]

You may be running up against the following General Rule:

5. To proceed through the foundry the community must show a reasonable amount of interest towards a map.

In aid of this, I made a mention/link of this map over in the World Cities thread, cleverly tying it to the issue of naming regions. I hope this helps.

It worked

Glad you could drop by. Tell your friends. Any comments on the map?

[RedBaron0]

Mr. Benn brings up a good point though. If you're willing to write text onto the map to name territories, why not create unique names? I know it'll be a pain in the ass making up names, or researching appropriate names in fiction and mythology related to Atlantis. Numbers or letters are one thing when attached to a region. Now you've got a region plus a typed name that is repeated across the map. There is a possibility for confusion. You can't get through the Forge with a possibility for confusion. We all understand what's going on, but we all know the Foundry is an isolated group here, 7/8 of the community won't ever come through here. When a 13 year old player plays this map, who likely has never seen a Greek letter beyond pi, they will be confused. "Why is there 9 'alpha' territories?"

Yes it sucks, yes it's a pain in the ass, but headaches now are far less painful then the migraines you'll get later, when you HAVE TO change the map because of these kind of issues.

***Note*** Any errors found during the map’s live play on the site must be attended to promptly or else the map will be taken down until said errors are fixed.

[ender516]

Mr. Benn brings up a good point though. If you're willing to write text onto the map to name territories, why not create unique names? I know it'll be a pain in the ass making up names, or researching appropriate names in fiction and mythology related to Atlantis. Numbers or letters are one thing when attached to a region. Now you've got a region plus a typed name that is repeated across the map. There is a possibility for confusion. You can't get through the Forge with a possibility for confusion. We all understand what's going on, but we all know the Foundry is an isolated group here, 7/8 of the community won't ever come through here. When a 13 year old player plays this map, who likely has never seen a Greek letter beyond pi, they will be confused. "Why is there 9 'alpha' territories?"

Yes it sucks, yes it's a pain in the ass, but headaches now are far less painful then the migraines you'll get later, when you HAVE TO change the map because of these kind of issues.

***Note*** Any errors found during the map’s live play on the site must be attended to promptly or else the map will be taken down until said errors are fixed.

I sincerely doubt that anyone on this site of any age is not going to recognize alpha, beta, gamma and so on as some kind of letter, even if they don't know Greek from Latin from Phoenician from Linear B. But if this issue is going to stall the progress of this map, then I say damn the torpedos, and go back to using actual Greek letters, with the XML encoding of iso8859-7 if necessary (I suspect it is). If we could have had a clear authoritative answer on whether this would work, or a means to put up a mock game page with dropdown menus that we could test ourselves, we would not be here messing around with spelled out names for Greek letters.

If we used "eh", "bee", "cee", "dee", "ee", "eff", "gee", "aitch", "eye", "jay", would anyone not be able to figure this out?

[Premier2k]

I completely agree with you Ender!

I have PM'd MrBenn about the symbols and have yet to recieve a reply on this issue! Perhaps I should PM him everyday until I do? Then at least we'd know where we stand!

Premier2k

[NemesisChild]

think about it guys!
If they are saying that writing alpha, beta, etc for each continents territory is confusing do you honestly think that using greek symbols is going to pass muster?

I still think that writing alpha beta etc, is no more confusing that imperial 1 imperial 2 as shown in fuedal war.
It is certainly a hell of a lot less confusing than the Classic game replacements, and what about Waterloo that has got to be the most confusing map on the site (IMHO), but it was passed through now people that like it, play it. Is it not the whole point of the beta system to evaluate and iron out any kinks. I say GR stamp it, let us get the xml sorted and when / if we go beta let the players state if they find it confusing, if they do, it is a change I will accept and be done with it.

Nem.

[Premier2k]

Hi all!
Version 36 is available!
Nemesischild decided to have a play around with the map and research some Greek names rather than Alpha, Beta etc.. and we've decided this actually looks better than Alpha, Beta and Greek symbols!
We have also decided to rename Mu, this continent is now called Santorini, we never much liked the name Mu and Santorini is a nod to one of the islands where Atlantis is thought to have been.
We have also renamed Ys, another name we weren't keen on and that is now called Atlanta. I'm sure you can figure out why..

So we're now hoping to get our GFX stamp! (Now MrBenn should be happy) Who stamps that by the way

Again, I'd like to take the time to thank Ender for sticking with us all this time, and yes I saw your post on the World Cities thread!

Changes made

Greek sounding names for territories
Changed Mu continent name
Changed Ys continent name

The Map!

Click image to enlarge.

[ender516]

These names look just fine. I may never remember which region (territory) is in which zone (continent), [except perhaps for that one in the southwest, kind cartographer], but I always have BOB to help me spot things. Plus, since these are imaginary places, no one can tell you they are misspelled!

As far as the Graphics stamp goes, World Cities got its from... (wait for it) MrBenn Well, at least we know he has been watching this map.

[NemesisChild]

lol, Glad you like the Nod Ender , it is well deserved too
Ok Mr Benn for our stamp then

As for made up words, only some of them are, most are Greek names (for people) , letters or places(Names) there are only 4 made up in there, You got one! I got one, Prem has one and Samuel has one if he finds it.

N.