Poker Club [Quenched]

[yeti_c]

Yes a straight A-2-3-4-5 is possible and in some games is considered the second best straight-straight flush because it contains the ace which makes it harder to complete.

Cheers for the clarification.

C.

[conquerAce]

looking back I guess I didn't hit submit with my suggestion....

If you start off with even fewer card... say two then the highest bonus to start is +3

If all the other cards are neutral then you have to work to get your hands... And if the neutrals are increasingly higher for ranks of the cards. say if the card is of rank 2 - 6 then the neutrals are 2, if the card is of rank 7 - 10 then the neutrals are 4 and if the rank of the card is J - A then the neutrals are 6.

Something like that thus limiting the lucky drop to getting a card that would normally take eliminating 6 armies to obtain.

Only reason I suggest to start with a drop of two is because you would need a lucky drop to get four of a kind but it's only one in about 4200 to get four of a kind but it's possible

[yeti_c]

OK...

So limiting to 2 for 8 players means 16 starting territories...

so for 2/3 players - that's 5 starting territories...

So we can neutralise out 36 of the territories to leave the 16.

However - I think it might be better to create sets of 5 cards to start with...

so 8 starting positions of 5 cards each means
8 = 5 cards
7 = 5 cards
6 = 5 cards
5 = 5 cards
4 = 10 cards
3 = 10 cards
2 = 10 cards

As long as we create starting positions that cannot combine to create good bonuses then that would work - and provide a more open game to start with - and less neutrals cluttering the game play?

C.

[conquerAce]

Sounds like a fair compromise... not too many neutrals and limiting the types of hands that you can start with would be great...

[yeti_c]

Sounds like a fair compromise... not too many neutrals and limiting the types of hands that you can start with would be great...

Excellent - I'll try and draw up some starting positions shortly.

C.

[kerntheconkerer]

You could make each number a continent no matter where they are located, and have each number be able to attack another same number. ALso, for a larger bonus, you could have all face cards, all of a suit, etc, etc,

[yeti_c]

You could make each number a continent no matter where they are located, and have each number be able to attack another same number. ALso, for a larger bonus, you could have all face cards, all of a suit, etc, etc,

TBH - that breaks the whole premise of the map of Poker hands...

I decided that attacking routes going from same card to same card - would make 4 of a kind really easy to get... i.e. if you're on 1 Ace... you will then be really easy to get the other Aces... as opposed to traversing across the entire map to get 4 of a kind of Aces.

C.

[cicero]

Nice idea. One that appeals to me.
You guys have been pretty busy so excuse me if, in my speed review of the thread, I've missed some things.

Some open ended thoughts:
Graphics

You're ace at GFX Widow... fancy giving me a hand on this one?

Sure. Let me know what type of layout you want and I can get going. I figures a poker table with chips and poker related stuff. Food and drink, etc. Let me know. Probably not a true "top" view but a little perspective to give all of the other things a little depth.

I'm with WM. It'd be good to have other elements besides the cards. And perhaps not purely decorative either.

For illustrative purposes only (copyright image) consider this ...

OK now reduce the number of players to 8 (at least one should be wearing a CC t-shirt as has previously been suggested), change the relative scaling so that the cards on the table are much bigger and attract similar focus to those in the images posted so far.

Card Layout
8 players with 2 or 5 cards each in front of them as their 'hand'. Face up though. These are the starting territories if we're considering a Feudal War type initial placement ...
So that's at least 16, or possibly 40, of the 52 cards used up.
Some kind of centre 'community cards' could be 3, 5 or 7 (as in hold-em type games) ...

Don't need 52 cards ...
A bit radical perhaps given the initial premise for the map, but I see no reason to have all 52 cards showing. Using a variant of the card layout described there could be a territory with the X remaining cards fanned out face down called "the deck" ...

Also, by not having all 52 cards face up and available to make good hands it would make it easier to manipulate the map to make certain hands hard to get ... Hypothetically let's say ... there's only one ace face up. And it's in the central 'community cards'. If any one wants to get a royal flush they're going to have to take that territory. So lots of competition for cards which are important to good poker hands. Again hypothetically put 30 neutrals on that ace at the start (a la Age of Wherever - Sanctuary) ...

Anything good in that lot ?

[shadowsteel9]

it reminds me of the game SEQUENCE, with some work this map will be fun.

P.S. Making it more like sequence would be even more awesome
for example 2 decks instead of 1

[yeti_c]

Nice idea. One that appeals to me.
You guys have been pretty busy so excuse me if, in my speed review of the thread, I've missed some things.
...
...

Cicero... I think you should be looking at this map...
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=41996&p=1092274&hilit=+poker#p1092274

However - yes the plan for GFX will most definitely be something like a poker table... however at the moment - I want to get the layout of the cards correct - and then once done - WM can do the prettifying!!!

So consider the image a gameplay image - and once we can nail that down - WM can do the cool stuff whilst I write the XML!!

In regards to not having 52 cards showing - TBH - that's breaking the whole idea of the map with the ability to hold different hands... this map will be all about combinations.

C.

[yeti_c]

OK so I tweaked the cards around slightly...

C.

[shadowsteel9]

if there's enough room you can get rid of those 4 floater cards by adding a 2nd deck

[yeti_c]

if there's enough room you can get rid of those 4 floater cards by adding a 2nd deck

TBH - I don't think there's enough room - and also - that will make the combinations even harder to protect etc...

That could be the next map though - 2 deck poker...

C.

[Keredrex]

Just a thought... What if you placed those 4 remaining cards in between and on top of four cards... sort of on top of the corners that meet between four cards.... and those 4 cards will be the only cards that attack diagnolly. they could be randomly placed. Also did u think about possibly adding (helipad like) attacks... Maybe the Aces border each other ... Or even add the jokers as a bombardment card. Maybe the jokers have some bonus feature.

Personally I think You should change the font on the cards ( Or use a different looking Set) but it isn't a big Deal

[cicero]

Nice idea. One that appeals to me.
You guys have been pretty busy so excuse me if, in my speed review of the thread, I've missed some things.
...
...

Cicero... I think you should be looking at this map...
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=41996&p=1092274&hilit=+poker#p1092274

I can see why you might think that from my post, but having looked at that thread your map idea is much closer to what's in my head

However - yes the plan for GFX will most definitely be something like a poker table... however at the moment - I want to get the layout of the cards correct - and then once done - WM can do the prettifying!!!

Fair enough. I can see that you want the cards themselves to be the only territories. I was suggesting using some of the surrounding prettification - chips, players etc - as territories too, but appreciate the 'purity' of cards only in your idea.

In regards to not having 52 cards showing - TBH - that's breaking the whole idea of the map with the ability to hold different hands... this map will be all about combinations.

OK ... with some minor reservations which I'll raise if/when appropriate as the map progresses ... but again for the 'purity' of the idea let's stick with 52 cards.

In the meantime consider this a rough random idea of how the card arrangement can be more 'realistic' and less utilitarian ...



It's very rough. I know the cards repeat and that there are actually 51 not 52 but hopefully it serves it's purpose to show how we could come up with something more poker-like in arrangement but still allowing for the multiple permutations ... ?

[bryguy]

I LIKE IT

[yeti_c]

Nice Cic Nice...

I do like the layout - it would be pretty easy to add the 52nd card in the middle...

One thing that might work better - is instead of fanning the way you have it - (like a C internally).... you could fan them the other way? So that the hands look like a hand in front of someone (if you know what I mean)

2 things...
a) What attack routes would you go for?
b) Would you have each "hand" as a starting position - with the middle cards being neutral?

C.

[cicero]

I do like the layout - it would be pretty easy to add the 52nd card in the middle...

One thing that might work better - is instead of fanning the way you have it - (like a C internally).... you could fan them the other way? So that the hands look like a hand in front of someone (if you know what I mean)

OK so, just for layout (and there are 52 now), how about this ...

2 things...
a) What attack routes would you go for?
b) Would you have each "hand" as a starting position - with the middle cards being neutral?

a) Not sure. At present I feel like adjacent connections/attack routes would be the way to go. And perhaps the cards on the outer ends of the four 'arms' would be adjacent to several (4,6,8 ?) of the cards in the two hands that they meet (hence those four should be the aces ?) ... You can see all the other implied links from the image I think ... I think there's the possibility of non-adjacent links too ... Jokers ?

The weakness of this design over yours is that it allows for less natural adjacent links and so I think you'll need to introduce some non-adjacent ones. The strength of this design (or one like it) is in it's visual/gameplay appeal and I think this is the deciding factor.

b) Initially I did think that as per my first post ... But now ... I'm thinking most territories are up for random assignment at game start with a select few forced to neutral to avoid random Royal Flushes, Straight Flushes, Four of A Kind ... etc. So perhaps the four aces forced to X neutrals each ...

The layout of the actual cards is the hardest part. I think that ultimately it will have to be a very symmetrical layout to ensure that no one side of the map is biased. It'll perhaps be like 8-Thoughts in that respect. [Which I think is a very good map.]

Cicero

[WidowMakers]

I personally think teh layout should be more random looking. Basically just sliding the cards all over the table. Any cards that touch can attack. Then you could have anywhere from 1 to 5 or 6 borders per card. Plus it looks better (personally) to have a little randomness to this map.

Plus we then have a lot more ability to tweak and design the gameplay with borders and not just the standard up,down,left,right attack routes.

WM

[Keredrex]

I like it... Maybe add Chips in between that could act as connections between the faned out cards and the center cards... Each Area could have a certain "Stack" of chips ranging from "Almost out" to "Big Chip".

[yeti_c]

Hmmm - Symmetrical maps sometimes don't work so well - the idea of my layout was elements of symettry - A's and K's in the same place - but elements of random with the cards in an ordered random...

WM's idea might work... i.e. spread a set of cards randomly over a table and then connect what touches... and then of course you get more varied (less symmetrical layout) and the randomness of the cards could be "tweaked" to take groups away from each other.

If going with Cic's layout - I'd make the internal X cards neutral - then leave the "hand" cards as random...

C.

[cicero]

It's your call OP ...
I'm a fan of order and symmetry (I appreciate that is not always a good thing), but can see the possibilities opened up by a pseudo 'random drop' approach.

I think both are improvements over the original rows and columns layout?

So a random drop ... a really close drop with lots of overlaps would be, logically, pretty close to a traditional land mass map.
A more spread out drop would be more ... well - spread out . More territories with only single borders etc.

A minor graphical aside: To allow for army placement I think (most) cards would have to lose the central suit graphics:


And a gratuitous random drop ... (perhaps this is medium between close and spread out )

I think if we go with a random drop then "grab poker" might be a good name ... it has the feel of dropping all the cards on the table and then grabbing the best hand you can ...

[yeti_c]

It's your call OP ...
I'm a fan of order and symmetry (I appreciate that is not always a good thing), but can see the possibilities opened up by a pseudo 'random drop' approach.

I think both are improvements over the original rows and columns layout?

So a random drop ... a really close drop with lots of overlaps would be, logically, pretty close to a traditional land mass map.
A more spread out drop would be more ... well - spread out . More territories with only single borders etc.

A minor graphical aside: To allow for army placement I think (most) cards would have to lose the central suit graphics:

Yeah I've been thinking about this... or perhaps a slight hustle of the centre icon of some of the cards out to one side... but that might be a bit weird!!

And a gratuitous random drop ... (perhaps this is medium between close and spread out )

Liking that quite a bit - it looks good.

I think if we go with a random drop then "grab poker" might be a good name ... it has the feel of dropping all the cards on the table and then grabbing the best hand you can ...

Hmmm - maybe.

C.

[bryguy]

why not just put the territ numbers in the corners?

[gimil]

Can we get a full draft of the latest layout with all the legends info etc