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Forbidden City [Quenched]

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Re: Forbidden City V1b [starting preview]

Postby cairnswk on Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:50 pm

Blitzaholic wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
cairnswk wrote:One thing important to this gameplay, is that the Eunuchs will be required to gain their "pao" (or private parts usually kept in jars) for the taking of the Eunuch bonuses.

This may just have been one of oddest game play posts I've ever seen in the Foundry. :)


--Andy



very odd, hmmm, no offense but these twists could turn many away, many players just do not like reading so many things to figure things out, sometimes keeping it simple is great, i know you like the more complex although you think its not, many players say it is and when a map may be too time consuming to figure out, they give up on it, instant gratification is always good. I do like your idea though.


many luv the cairns map you did, styles and formats like that are really neat


Thanks Blitzaholic. Once again i'm sure i don't have to remind you that if players don't like a map they don't have to play it. If they chose to turn away from my maps, then they chose to turn away from their minds being challenged and that is what life is all about...same as going to school to learn and be educated.
Now the piece about the Poa is stating the obvious because if Poa is "their balls" then in Chinese culture all eunuchs were required to be buried with the private parts in the shrouds/coffins whatever they were buried in. Simple fact, otherwise they didn't get to heaven as "whole beings", and in concjunction as to how this plays on the map, well it really is an no-brainer anyway because if you look, the Poa territory is bordered by the Cai eunuch territory and therefore can be said to be part of the Eunuch continent. :)
And from feedback that i see on the map games of mine that i spy on, most people simply prefer to jump in the deep end and then wonder why they don't win a map, because they haven't taken to the time read the instructions. I see this time and time again, and it doesn't deter me from creating a map that is somewhat complicated; because there are plenty of maps out there for everyone to play.
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Re: Forbidden City V26 (P20) [I]

Postby Blitzaholic on Sat Aug 16, 2008 11:58 pm

very true, well said cairns, good point
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Re: Forbidden City V26 (P20) [I]

Postby iancanton on Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:13 am

cairnswk

here is the gameplay analysis i promised.

the map has 81 territories, of which 9 currently have starting neutrals, leaving 72 for random allocation. this is one of the worst numbers for 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3, since each player starts with 24, 18 or 12 territories respectively and can therefore reduce the opposing deployment if only 1 territory is taken. in 3v3, with average losses for both teams, the second team could have 3 fewer armies (in other words, 25% fewer) deployed by the time round 2 begins!

without changing the graphics, we can have 78 randomly-allocated territories (an especially good number for 1v1 because the first player needs to win 3 territories to reduce his opponent's deployment, just as on the classic map) by doing two things. firstly, there's no apparent reason for the towers to start with neutrals: they don't have special bonuses or attacking powers. secondly, the ming and qing dynasties, though unable to attack each other directly, can be combined for bonus purposes so that there is no bonus unless all four rulers are held.

if we have a combined dynasties bonus without individual ming and qing bonuses, then there no longer remains a need for the ming and qing starting neutrals. this has another effect: the strategy in unlimited forts that someone mentioned of attacking both rulers in one dynasty, then forting from lots of territories to secure the bonus, no longer applies and, with 4 border territories that can be attacked from 9 bonus regions (the most on the map), a sizeable bonus of +6 looks feasible ā€“ they are the rulers, after all!

this is a very open map and there are big bonuses across the board. nonetheless, the kmt bonus is too much for holding a 3-territory, 2-border region. +2 brings it level with the foreigners bonus. could the foreigners be called missionaries instead?

the gardens bonus of +3 for holding a humble 2-territory region is also too high, especially as only 4 bonus regions (after combining ming and qing) have the opportunity to attack it.

ian. :)
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Re: Forbidden City V26 (P20) [I]

Postby cairnswk on Sun Aug 17, 2008 11:46 am

iancanton wrote:cairnswk

here is the gameplay analysis i promised.

the map has 81 territories, of which 9 currently have starting neutrals, leaving 72 for random allocation. this is one of the worst numbers for 1v1, 2v2 and 3v3, since each player starts with 24, 18 or 12 territories respectively and can therefore reduce the opposing deployment if only 1 territory is taken. in 3v3, with average losses for both teams, the second team could have 3 fewer armies (in other words, 25% fewer) deployed by the time round 2 begins!

without changing the graphics, we can have 78 randomly-allocated territories (an especially good number for 1v1 because the first player needs to win 3 territories to reduce his opponent's deployment, just as on the classic map) by doing two things. firstly, there's no apparent reason for the towers to start with neutrals: they don't have special bonuses or attacking powers.

Thanks Ian
they never were going to start neutral, i don't know where you got this from. ;)

secondly, the ming and qing dynasties, though unable to attack each other directly, can be combined for bonus purposes so that there is no bonus unless all four rulers are held.

if we have a combined dynasties bonus without individual ming and qing bonuses, then there no longer remains a need for the ming and qing starting neutrals. this has another effect: the strategy in unlimited forts that someone mentioned of attacking both rulers in one dynasty, then forting from lots of territories to secure the bonus, no longer applies and, with 4 border territories that can be attacked from 9 bonus regions (the most on the map), a sizeable bonus of +6 looks feasible ā€“ they are the rulers, after all!


it was my intention that pu-yi and xianzong were going to be neutral, along with one each of the gardens and priests and inner court as in map below.

That would make only 5 starting neutral and alter the odds for 1v1 etc games, wouldn't it.

while i think your idea for having combined bonuses for emperors is good, it wasn't what i had in mind since both dynasties existed without the other, and i think bonus match play needs to reflect that.


this is a very open map and there are big bonuses across the board. nonetheless, the kmt bonus is too much for holding a 3-territory, 2-border region. +2 brings it level with the foreigners bonus.

Done deal

could the foreigners be called missionaries instead?

Done deal

the gardens bonus of +3 for holding a humble 2-territory region is also too high, especially as only 4 bonus regions (after combining ming and qing) have the opportunity to attack it.

changed to +2 ?

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Code: Select all
<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<map>
  <title>The Forbidden City</title>
  <smallwidth>630</smallwidth>
  <smallheight>600</smallheight>
  <largewidth>800</largewidth>
  <largeheight>762</largeheight>
  <filetype>jpg</filetype>

<continent>
  <name>8 Nations Alliance</name>
  <bonus>6</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Russia</territory>
   <territory>A-H Empire</territory>
   <territory>Germany</territory>
   <territory>U.S.A.</territory>
   <territory>Japan</territory>
   <territory>Italy</territory>
   <territory>France</territory>
   <territory>Britain</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Kuomintang</name>
  <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Song Jiaoren</territory>
   <territory>Sun Yat-sen</territory>
   <territory>KMT Army</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Foreigners</name>
  <bonus>2</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Inland Missions</territory>
   <territory>Societies</territory>
   <territory>Christians</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>The Boxers</name>
  <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Prince Juan</territory>
   <territory>Yuan Shih-kai</territory>
   <territory>Li Yuanhung</territory>
   <territory>Wu Chow</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>The Peasants</name>
  <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Peasants</territory>
   <territory>Li Zicheng</territory>
   <territory>Imperial Army</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Gates</name>
  <bonus>10</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Shenwu Gate West</territory>
   <territory>Shenwu Gate East</territory>
   <territory>W Glorious Gate North</territory>
   <territory>W Glorious Gate South</territory>
   <territory>E Glorious Gate North</territory>
   <territory>E Glorious Gate South</territory>
   <territory>Wu Gate West</territory>
   <territory>Wu Gate East</territory>
   <territory>Wu Gate</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Towers</name>
  <bonus>4</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>NW Tower</territory>
   <territory>NE Tower</territory>
   <territory>SW Tower</territory>
   <territory>SE Tower</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Ming</name>
  <bonus>1</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Emp. Cheng-tsu</territory>
   <territory>Emp. XianZong</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Qing</name>
  <bonus>1</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Emp. Pu Yi</territory>
   <territory>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Gardens</name>
  <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Imperial Garden</territory>
   <territory>Kung Ming Garden</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Inner Court</name>
  <bonus>3</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>W Inner Court</territory>
   <territory>E Inner Court</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Palaces</name>
  <bonus>8</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Lung Tsi Pavillion</territory>
   <territory>Kindness Palace</territory>
   <territory>Exuberance Palace</territory>
   <territory>Eternal Spring Palace</territory>
   <territory>Emperess's Palace</territory>
   <territory>Emperors' Palace</territory>
   <territory>Concubines' Palace</territory>
   <territory>Ancestors' Palace</territory>
   <territory>Tranquil Longevity Palace</territory>
   <territory>Crown Princes' Palace</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Priests</name>
  <bonus>1</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Shamon Priests</territory>
   <territory>Taoist Priests</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Eunuchs</name>
  <bonus>7</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Imp Kitchen</territory>
   <territory>Imperial Taster</territory>
   <territory>Fu</territory>
   <territory>Chi</territory>
   <territory>Cheng</territory>
   <territory>Yo</territory>
   <territory>Cai</territory>
   <territory>Li</territory>
   <territory>Tsi</territory>
   <territory>Pao</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Outer Courts</name>
  <bonus>10</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>SW Court</territory>
   <territory>SW Inner Court</territory>
   <territory>Sea of Flagstones</territory>
   <territory>Inner NE Court</territory>
   <territory>NE Outer Court</territory>
   <territory>SW Outer Court</territory>
   <territory>Five Bridges Court</territory>
   <territory>SE Outer Court</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<continent>
  <name>Great Halls</name>
  <bonus>9</bonus>
   <components>
   <territory>Grand Council</territory>
   <territory>Hall of Preserving Harmony</territory>
   <territory>Hall of Central Harmony</territory>
   <territory>Hall of Supreme Harmony</territory>
   <territory>Archery Hall</territory>
   <territory>Hall Imperial Household</territory>
   <territory>Military Eminance Hall</territory>
   <territory>Literary Glory Hall</territory>
   <territory>NanXun Hall</territory>
   </components>
</continent>

<!-- End Continents -->

<!-- Start 8 Nations Alliance -->

<territory>
  <name>Italy</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Japan</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>176</smallx>
         <smally>41</smally>
         <largex>225</largex>
         <largey>47</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>A-H Empire</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Russia</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>246</smallx>
         <smally>41</smally>
         <largex>312</largex>
         <largey>45</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Germany</name>
   <borders>
   <border>France</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>532</smallx>
         <smally>42</smally>
         <largex>674</largex>
         <largey>49</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>U.S.A.</name>
   <borders>
   <border>France</border>
   <border>Britain</border>
   <border>Inland Missions</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>602</smallx>
         <smally>42</smally>
         <largex>762</largex>
         <largey>49</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Japan</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Italy</border>
   <border>Russia</border>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   <border>Sun Yat-sen</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>235</smallx>
         <smally>82</smally>
         <largex>299</largex>
         <largey>98</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Russia</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Japan</border>
   <border>A-H Empire</border>
   <border>France</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>299</smallx>
         <smally>83</smally>
         <largex>381</largex>
         <largey>99</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>France</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Russia</border>
   <border>Germany</border>
   <border>U.S.A.</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>467</smallx>
         <smally>83</smally>
         <largex>590</largex>
         <largey>102</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Britain</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Prince Juan</border>
   <border>U.S.A.</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>533</smallx>
         <smally>83</smally>
         <largex>674</largex>
         <largey>99</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End 8 Nations Alliance -->

<!-- Start Kuomintang -->

<territory>
  <name>Song Jiaoren</name>
   <borders>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>161</smallx>
         <smally>113</smally>
         <largex>208</largex>
         <largey>138</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Sun Yat-sen</name>
   <borders>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   <border>Japan</border>
   <border>Peasants</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>161</smallx>
         <smally>180</smally>
         <largex>204</largex>
         <largey>221</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>KMT Army</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Song Jiaoren</border>
   <border>Sun Yat-sen</border>
   <border>Peasants</border>
   <border>Li Zicheng</border>
   <border>Imperial Army</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Japan</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>162</smallx>
         <smally>252</smally>
         <largex>206</largex>
         <largey>306</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Kuomintang -->

<!-- Start Foreigners -->

<territory>
  <name>Inland Missions</name>
   <borders>
   <border>U.S.A.</border>
   <border>Prince Juan</border>
   <border>Societies</border>
   <border>Christians</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>597</smallx>
         <smally>90</smally>
         <largex>758</largex>
         <largey>107</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Societies</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Inland Missions</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>598</smallx>
         <smally>159</smally>
         <largex>760</largex>
         <largey>195</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Christians</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Inland Missions</border>
   <border>Prince Juan</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>598</smallx>
         <smally>226</smally>
         <largex>760</largex>
         <largey>281</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Foreigners -->

<!-- Start Boxers -->

<territory>
  <name>Prince Juan</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Britain</border>
   <border>Inland Missions</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>Yuan Shih-kai</border>
   <border>Christians</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>596</smallx>
         <smally>304</smally>
         <largex>758</largex>
         <largey>378</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Yuan Shih-kai</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Prince Juan</border>
   <border>Li Yuanhung</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>597</smallx>
         <smally>369</smally>
         <largex>760</largex>
         <largey>464</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Li Yuanhung</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Yuan Shih-kai</border>
   <border>Wu Chow</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>597</smallx>
         <smally>431</smally>
         <largex>759</largex>
         <largey>543</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Wu Chow</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate East</border>
   <border>Li Yuanhung</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>596</smallx>
         <smally>494</smally>
         <largex>758</largex>
         <largey>621</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Boxers -->

<!-- Start Peasants -->

<territory>
  <name>Peasants</name>
   <borders>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   <border>W Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>Li Zicheng</border>
   <border>Sun Yat-sen</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>162</smallx>
         <smally>318</smally>
         <largex>207</largex>
         <largey>397</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Li Zicheng</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Peasants</border>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>162</smallx>
         <smally>390</smally>
         <largex>206</largex>
         <largey>488</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Imperial Army</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>Wu Gate West</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>162</smallx>
         <smally>468</smally>
         <largex>207</largex>
         <largey>587</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Peasants -->

<!-- Start Gates -->

<territory>
  <name>Shenwu Gate West</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Russia</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   <border>NW Tower</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>361</smallx>
         <smally>111</smally>
         <largex>454</largex>
         <largey>136</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Shenwu Gate East</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>France</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   <border>NE Tower</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>392</smallx>
         <smally>111</smally>
         <largex>499</largex>
         <largey>135</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>W Glorious Gate North</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>SW Court</border>
   <border>NW Tower</border>
   <border>Peasants</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>209</smallx>
         <smally>401</smally>
         <largex>265</largex>
         <largey>502</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>W Glorious Gate South</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   <border>SW Tower</border>
   <border>Imperial Army</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>209</smallx>
         <smally>427</smally>
         <largex>266</largex>
         <largey>539</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>E Glorious Gate North</name>
   <borders>
   <border>E Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>NE Outer Court</border>
   <border>NE Tower</border>
   <border>Prince Juan</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>542</smallx>
         <smally>410</smally>
         <largex>689</largex>
         <largey>515</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>E Glorious Gate South</name>
   <borders>
   <border>E Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>SE Outer Court</border>
   <border>SE Tower</border>
   <border>Wu Chow</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>542</smallx>
         <smally>435</smally>
         <largex>689</largex>
         <largey>545</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Wu Gate</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate West</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   <border>Wu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>494</smally>
         <largex>477</largex>
         <largey>619</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Wu Gate East</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Wu Chow</border>
   <border>SE Tower</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>404</smallx>
         <smally>504</smally>
         <largex>515</largex>
         <largey>635</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Wu Gate West</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Imperial Army</border>
   <border>SW Tower</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>348</smallx>
         <smally>504</smally>
         <largex>443</largex>
         <largey>634</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Gates -->

<!-- Start Towers -->

<territory>
  <name>NW Tower</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>W Glorious Gate North</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>216</smallx>
         <smally>118</smally>
         <largex>275</largex>
         <largey>143</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>NE Tower</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate North</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>541</smallx>
         <smally>118</smally>
         <largex>688</largex>
         <largey>143</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>SW Tower</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate West</border>
   <border>W Glorious Gate South</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>216</smallx>
         <smally>489</smally>
         <largex>275</largex>
         <largey>615</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>SE Tower</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Wu Gate East</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate South</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>541</smallx>
         <smally>489</smally>
         <largex>688</largex>
         <largey>614</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Towers -->

<!-- Start Ming -->

<territory>
  <name>Emp. Cheng-tsu</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Imperial Army</border>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>195</smallx>
         <smally>560</smally>
         <largex>250</largex>
         <largey>707</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Emp. XianZong</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Imperial Army</border>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>324</smallx>
         <smally>557</smally>
         <largex>413</largex>
         <largey>701</largey>
      </coordinates>
<neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>

<!-- End Ming -->

<!-- Start Qing -->

<territory>
  <name>Emp. Pu Yi</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   <border>KMT Army</border>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>410</smallx>
         <smally>567</smally>
         <largex>522</largex>
         <largey>714</largey>
      </coordinates>
<neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Wu Chow</border>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>547</smallx>
         <smally>556</smally>
         <largex>696</largex>
         <largey>700</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Qing -->

<!-- Start Gardens -->

<territory>
  <name>Kung Ming Garden</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Lung Tsi Pavillion</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>258</smallx>
         <smally>329</smally>
         <largex>329</largex>
         <largey>412</largey>
      </coordinates>
<neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Imperial Garden</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Eternal Spring Palace</border>
   <border>Concubines' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>156</smally>
         <largex>476</largex>
         <largey>188</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>


<!-- End Gardens -->

<!--Start Inner Courts -->

<territory>
  <name>W Inner Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Court</border>
   <border>Imp Kitchen</border>
   <border>Kindness Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   <border>SW Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>314</smallx>
         <smally>275</smally>
         <largex>401</largex>
         <largey>343</largey>
      </coordinates>
<neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>E Inner Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Ancestors' Palace</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>469</smallx>
         <smally>289</smally>
         <largex>599</largex>
         <largey>360</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Inner Courts -->

<!-- Start Palaces -->

<territory>
  <name>Lung Tsi Pavillion</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Kung Ming Garden</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>290</smallx>
         <smally>299</smally>
         <largex>369</largex>
         <largey>373</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Kindness Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>263</smallx>
         <smally>244</smally>
         <largex>335</largex>
         <largey>305</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Exuberance Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>263</smallx>
         <smally>172</smally>
         <largex>336</largex>
         <largey>213</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Eternal Spring Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>324</smallx>
         <smally>172</smally>
         <largex>413</largex>
         <largey>211</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Emperess's Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Eternal Spring Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>377</smallx>
         <smally>196</smally>
         <largex>479</largex>
         <largey>242</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Emperors' Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>377</smallx>
         <smally>237</smally>
         <largex>479</largex>
         <largey>294</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Concubines' Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>436</smallx>
         <smally>172</smally>
         <largex>559</largex>
         <largey>214</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Ancestors' Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>457</smallx>
         <smally>265</smally>
         <largex>581</largex>
         <largey>332</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Tranquil Longevity Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Crown Princes' Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>504</smallx>
         <smally>261</smally>
         <largex>641</largex>
         <largey>326</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Crown Princes' Palace</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Tsi</border>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>NE Outer Court</border>
   <border>Tranquil Longevity Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>535</smallx>
         <smally>322</smally>
         <largex>680</largex>
         <largey>404</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Palaces -->

<!-- Start Priests -->

<territory>
  <name>Shamon Priests</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Taoist Priests</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>503</smallx>
         <smally>167</smally>
         <largex>642</largex>
         <largey>209</largey>
      </coordinates>
<neutral>3</neutral>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Taoist Priests</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Shamon Priests</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>504</smallx>
         <smally>196</smally>
         <largex>646</largex>
         <largey>246</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Priests -->

<!-- Start Eunuchs -->

<territory>
  <name>Imp Kitchen</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Court</border>
   <border>Fu</border>
   <border>Chi</border>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>218</smallx>
         <smally>204</smally>
         <largex>279</largex>
         <largey>253</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Imperial Taster</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Grand Council</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Imp Kitchen</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>337</smallx>
         <smally>207</smally>
         <largex>430</largex>
         <largey>257</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Fu</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imp Kitchen</border>
   <border>Chi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>218</smallx>
         <smally>173</smally>
         <largex>279</largex>
         <largey>214</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Chi</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imp Kitchen</border>
   <border>Cheng</border>
   <border>Fu</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>265</smallx>
         <smally>122</smally>
         <largex>348</largex>
         <largey>148</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Cheng</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   <border>Chi</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate West</border>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Eternal Spring Palace</border>
   <border>Exuberance Palace</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>304</smallx>
         <smally>122</smally>
         <largex>391</largex>
         <largey>148</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Yo</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imperial Garden</border>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Shenwu Gate East</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>439</smallx>
         <smally>122</smally>
         <largex>557</largex>
         <largey>145</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Cai</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Pao</border>
   <border>Yo</border>
   <border>Li</border>
   <border>Emperess's Palace</border>
   <border>Emperors' Palace</border>
   <border>Shamon Priests</border>
   <border>Taoist Priests</border>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>507</smallx>
         <smally>122</smally>
         <largex>645</largex>
         <largey>145</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Li</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cai</border>
   <border>Tsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>538</smallx>
         <smally>186</smally>
         <largex>683</largex>
         <largey>226</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Tsi</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Li</border>
   <border>Crown Princes' Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>538</smallx>
         <smally>279</smally>
         <largex>684</largex>
         <largey>345</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Pao</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Cai</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>418</smallx>
         <smally>244</smally>
         <largex>537</largex>
         <largey>301</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Eunuchs -->

<!-- Start Outer Courts -->

<territory>
  <name>SW Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   <border>Hall Imperial Household</border>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   <border>Imp Kitchen</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>231</smallx>
         <smally>380</smally>
         <largex>293</largex>
         <largey>474</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>SW Inner Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Military Eminance Hall</border>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   <border>Hall Imperial Household</border>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>314</smallx>
         <smally>369</smally>
         <largex>400</largex>
         <largey>465</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>SW Outer Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>SW Court</border>
   <border>Military Eminance Hall</border>
   <border>NanXun Hall</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>SW Inner Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>239</smallx>
         <smally>434</smally>
         <largex>302</largex>
         <largey>541</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Sea of Flagstones</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Inner Court</border>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>388</smally>
         <largex>477</largex>
         <largey>479</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Five Bridges Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   <border>SE Outer Court</border>
   <border>Wu Gate</border>
   <border>Wu Gate West</border>
   <border>Wu Gate East</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>433</smally>
         <largex>480</largex>
         <largey>541</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Inner NE Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   <border>Archery Hall</border>
   <border>NE Outer Court</border>
   <border>Literary Glory Hall</border>
   <border>Crown Princes' Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>436</smallx>
         <smally>388</smally>
         <largex>553</largex>
         <largey>484</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>NE Outer Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate North</border>
   <border>SE Outer Court</border>
   <border>Literary Glory Hall</border>
   <border>Crown Princes' Palace</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>518</smallx>
         <smally>360</smally>
         <largex>658</largex>
         <largey>451</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>SE Outer Court</name>
   <borders>
   <border>NE Outer Court</border>
   <border>E Glorious Gate South</border>
   <border>Five Bridges Court</border>
   <border>Literary Glory Hall</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>484</smallx>
         <smally>457</smally>
         <largex>613</largex>
         <largey>572</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End Outer Courts -->

<!-- Start Great Halls -->

<territory>
  <name>Hall Imperial Household</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Court</border>
   <border>SW Inner Court</border>
   <border>Military Eminance Hall</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>292</smallx>
         <smally>355</smally>
         <largex>372</largex>
         <largey>442</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Military Eminance Hall</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Inner Court</border>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   <border>Hall Imperial Household</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>280</smallx>
         <smally>425</smally>
         <largex>355</largex>
         <largey>534</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Grand Council</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Imperial Taster</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>326</smallx>
         <smally>232</smally>
         <largex>416</largex>
         <largey>290</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Hall of Preserving Harmony</name>
   <borders>
   <border>W Inner Court</border>
   <border>E Inner Court</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>282</smally>
         <largex>476</largex>
         <largey>350</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Hall of Central Harmony</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Hall of Supreme Harmony</border>
   <border>Hall of Preserving Harmony</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   <border>Archery Hall</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>317</smally>
         <largex>477</largex>
         <largey>395</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Hall of Supreme Harmony</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   <border>Sea of Flagstones</border>
   <border>Emp. Cheng-tsu</border>
   <border>Emp. XianZong</border>
   <border>Emp. Pu Yi</border>
   <border>Emps. T'zu-Hsi</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>376</smallx>
         <smally>352</smally>
         <largex>477</largex>
         <largey>439</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Archery Hall</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>Hall of Central Harmony</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>440</smallx>
         <smally>313</smally>
         <largex>559</largex>
         <largey>389</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>Literary Glory Hall</name>
   <borders>
   <border>Inner NE Court</border>
   <border>NE Outer Court</border>
   <border>SE Outer Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>468</smallx>
         <smally>423</smally>
         <largex>594</largex>
         <largey>531</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<territory>
  <name>NanXun Hall</name>
   <borders>
   <border>SW Outer Court</border>
   </borders>
      <coordinates>
         <smallx>301</smallx>
         <smally>482</smally>
         <largex>382</largex>
         <largey>604</largey>
      </coordinates>
</territory>

<!-- End of Great Halls -->

</map>
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Re: Forbidden City V26 (P20) [I]

Postby iancanton on Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:38 pm

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:firstly, there's no apparent reason for the towers to start with neutrals: they don't have special bonuses or attacking powers.
they never were going to start neutral, i don't know where you got this from. ;)

the first page?
cairnswk wrote:The Towers should start with 6 neutrals.

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:secondly, the ming and qing dynasties, though unable to attack each other directly, can be combined for bonus purposes so that there is no bonus unless all four rulers are held.
it was my intention that pu-yi and xianzong were going to be neutral, along with one each of the gardens and priests and inner court as in map below.

That would make only 5 starting neutral and alter the odds for 1v1 etc games, wouldn't it.

while i think your idea for having combined bonuses for emperors is good, it wasn't what i had in mind since both dynasties existed without the other, and i think bonus match play needs to reflect that.

i see ur historical point about not mixing the dynasties - i'll have another look at the bonuses soon. with 76 territories available for random allocation, 1v1, 2v2 and 4v4 work reasonably well. on the other hand, 3v3 gives 12 territories each (the worst case scenario) plus 4 random neutrals. do try to think of a way to bring up to 78 the randomly-allocated number, such as combining the priests and gardens into one bonus (except they're not a natural fit ā€“ why would the priests have any special link with the gardens?). that having been said, 3v3 is so much less popular than 1v1 and 2v2 that this by itself will not stop the gameplay from being stamped (again!).
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Re: Forbidden City V26 (P20) [I]

Postby cairnswk on Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:54 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:firstly, there's no apparent reason for the towers to start with neutrals: they don't have special bonuses or attacking powers.
they never were going to start neutral, i don't know where you got this from. ;)

the first page?
cairnswk wrote:The Towers should start with 6 neutrals.

cairnswk wrote:
iancanton wrote:secondly, the ming and qing dynasties, though unable to attack each other directly, can be combined for bonus purposes so that there is no bonus unless all four rulers are held.
it was my intention that pu-yi and xianzong were going to be neutral, along with one each of the gardens and priests and inner court as in map below.

That would make only 5 starting neutral and alter the odds for 1v1 etc games, wouldn't it.

while i think your idea for having combined bonuses for emperors is good, it wasn't what i had in mind since both dynasties existed without the other, and i think bonus match play needs to reflect that.

i see ur historical point about not mixing the dynasties - i'll have another look at the bonuses soon. with 76 territories available for random allocation, 1v1, 2v2 and 4v4 work reasonably well. on the other hand, 3v3 gives 12 territories each (the worst case scenario) plus 4 random neutrals. do try to think of a way to bring up to 78 the randomly-allocated number, such as combining the priests and gardens into one bonus (except they're not a natural fit ā€“ why would the priests have any special link with the gardens?). that having been said, 3v3 is so much less popular than 1v1 and 2v2 that this by itself will not stop the gameplay from being stamped (again!).
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ian. :)

Thanks for the stamp ian.
In order to get your 78 terts starting, would there be too much probability if the only neutral starts were
1 garden
1 priest
1 inner court.
this would mean the emperors are free to be allocated per random.
Would that create too much of problem?
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) legend changes

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:36 pm

cairnswk wrote:Thanks for the stamp ian.
In order to get your 78 terts starting, would there be too much probability if the only neutral starts were
1 garden
1 priest
1 inner court.
this would mean the emperors are free to be allocated per random.
Would that create too much of problem?


Version 27.

Changes:
1. major changes to the legend, i got rid of the distinction between inner and outer courts and called them "Inside City"
2. Gate names have been corrected and also in xml.
3. as you can see, legend is much more legible now with change of font and re-wording.
4. renamed the light green continent Li Rebels - these were the guys who brought down the Ming dynasty.
5. removed an attack route from Imp Army to Emp. Cheng-tsu from Li Rebels because they didn't attack that Emperor.
6. Upgraded the bonus on Dynasties to 3 because of the number of territories that can attack the rulers.
7. removed the neutral start dialogue.

Large version coming shortly, I was going to re-work this map in Illustrator CS3, but nooooooooo. too much work.

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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby cairnswk on Tue Aug 19, 2008 8:08 pm

Large V27
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby iancanton on Wed Aug 20, 2008 6:11 am

cairnswk wrote:Thanks for the stamp ian.
In order to get your 78 terts starting, would there be too much probability if the only neutral starts were
1 garden
1 priest
1 inner court.
this would mean the emperors are free to be allocated per random.
Would that create too much of problem?

yes, it would make things worse! if both dynasties have no starting neutrals then, in a 1v1 game (the most popular type), there is a 20% chance that the first player will start with both territories of at least one of the dynasties. if u can't think of anything else (such as splitting the inner court into 3 instead of 2 or, alternatively, squeezing in a third garden somewhere - probably not enough room for either of those), then keeping 5 starting neutrals is better because, for a map of 76 randomly-allocated territories, the unbalanced start affects only 3v3, which isn't the most common format.
cairnswk wrote:6. Upgraded the bonus on Dynasties to 3 because of the number of territories that can attack the rulers.

this is a good change, otherwise who would try to kill 3 neutrals for a +1 bonus that can be attacked from so many other areas?

can u reverse the order of the chinese characters in the title? pre-1949, chinese characters written horizontally were read from right to left.

ian. :)
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby whitestazn88 on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:51 am

looking good
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby Androidz on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:55 am

Hmm the legend telling about the impassibles is kinda overlapping the impassibles. (Letters go over the impassibles picture, could you try make the impassibles placed in the corner. so i dont look it look now?


And im not sure Inner City is the best word. What about The Forbidden City. Might be a bit weird since the map is named the same but, since you got outsiders, the forbidden city sounds cool.
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby cairnswk on Wed Aug 20, 2008 5:09 pm

whitestazn88 wrote:looking good

Thank you :)

Androidz wrote:Hmm the legend telling about the impassibles is kinda overlapping the impassibles. (Letters go over the impassibles picture, could you try make the impassibles placed in the corner. so i dont look it look now?


And im not sure Inner City is the best word. What about The Forbidden City. Might be a bit weird since the map is named the same but, since you got outsiders, the forbidden city sounds cool.


1. I'll fix that, sorry it got mixed up ion the adjustments and i didn't see it.

2. Forbidden City Won't fit in there, but i'll try for another option. :)
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby Androidz on Wed Aug 20, 2008 11:07 pm

cairnswk wrote:
whitestazn88 wrote:looking good

Thank you :)

Androidz wrote:Hmm the legend telling about the impassibles is kinda overlapping the impassibles. (Letters go over the impassibles picture, could you try make the impassibles placed in the corner. so i dont look it look now?


And im not sure Inner City is the best word. What about The Forbidden City. Might be a bit weird since the map is named the same but, since you got outsiders, the forbidden city sounds cool.


1. I'll fix that, sorry it got mixed up ion the adjustments and i didn't see it.

2. Forbidden City Won't fit in there, but i'll try for another option. :)




1. kk=D

2. Hmm didint think about that, well if you find up anything im sure it will be good cause i couldent think of anything. :D
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Army circles

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:54 am

Version 27 please refresh browsers...
I have adjusted the legend text near the impassables so that it doesn't cover the icons...
& the small army circles have been added to the large map.

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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Legend changes

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:46 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:Thanks for the stamp ian.
In order to get your 78 terts starting, would there be too much probability if the only neutral starts were
1 garden
1 priest
1 inner court.
this would mean the emperors are free to be allocated per random.
Would that create too much of problem?

yes, it would make things worse! if both dynasties have no starting neutrals then, in a 1v1 game (the most popular type), there is a 20% chance that the first player will start with both territories of at least one of the dynasties. if u can't think of anything else (such as splitting the inner court into 3 instead of 2 or, alternatively, squeezing in a third garden somewhere - probably not enough room for either of those), then keeping 5 starting neutrals is better because, for a map of 76 randomly-allocated territories, the unbalanced start affects only 3v3, which isn't the most common format.
cairnswk wrote:6. Upgraded the bonus on Dynasties to 3 because of the number of territories that can attack the rulers.

this is a good change, otherwise who would try to kill 3 neutrals for a +1 bonus that can be attacked from so many other areas?

can u reverse the order of the chinese characters in the title? pre-1949, chinese characters written horizontally were read from right to left.

ian. :)


Yes i can do that next version for the characters in title -> reverse them.

Also, i will be changing the xml to reflect 76 starting terts, with 5 neutral starters.
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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Army Shadows Lge Map

Postby RjBeals on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:51 pm

I'm not sure it's clear enough what the "Pao" blurb means. I see the Eunuchs areas up top. I see the "Pao" box which is also one of the Eunuchs territories. So what does gaining "Pao" do - since you have to hold that box to secure your bonus anyway? You say it's connected to the other regions - but it looks like it's enclosed in the inner walls?

If there are neutral starting territs, could you post an image showing the gray neutrals? Thanks -
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Re: Forbidden City - Starting Terts

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 21, 2008 12:58 pm

RjBeals wrote:I'm not sure it's clear enough what the "Pao" blurb means. I see the Eunuchs areas up top. I see the "Pao" box which is also one of the Eunuchs territories. So what does gaining "Pao" do - since you have to hold that box to secure your bonus anyway? You say it's connected to the other regions - but it looks like it's enclosed in the inner walls?

If there are neutral starting territs, could you post an image showing the gray neutrals? Thanks -


Sure Rj....just for you, it was back two pages.

Poa is connected to Cai. While I realise the Poa blurb is not really needed, i would like to keep it there to highlight the sacrifice given by these guys.....something i cherish! :)

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Re: Forbidden City V27 (P21) [I,Gp] - Army Shadows Lge Map

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 21, 2008 4:20 pm

Cairns I have but three small little niggles that are slightly annoying me.

1. The flag images used at the top of the map stick out and don't really fall into place like the rest of the image. Im not sure how this could be fixed. They are to bold compared with the textured nature of the entire map.

2. While were on the subject of bold colours, the paths that are connecting the lanterns are also to bold and stick out on the image. Would you be so kind as to concider a nice little texture on these paths for your favourite C.A.? :p

3. The curved names for the empires currently touch the outer border of there circles. Could you please tweek it to there is a little buffer around border?

Except for those minors thing im overlay happy with how this one looks :)

(kept my manners and everything there cainrs ;))
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Re: Forbidden City V28

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:20 pm

gimil wrote:Cairns I have but three small little niggles that are slightly annoying me.

1. The flag images used at the top of the map stick out and don't really fall into place like the rest of the image. Im not sure how this could be fixed. They are to bold compared with the textured nature of the entire map.

redecued to average blend

2. While were on the subject of bold colours, the paths that are connecting the lanterns are also to bold and stick out on the image. Would you be so kind as to concider a nice little texture on these paths for your favourite C.A.? :p

I would prefer not to do that. 1. you're the only person who has asked for it so far; 2. if the path is texturised it will also affect some of the lanterns and that wouldn't be good.

3. The curved names for the empires currently touch the outer border of there circles. Could you please tweek it to there is a little buffer around border?
Done!


With regards to Iancantons' request to change the name character orientation on both maps to swap them around, i have tried to do that and it is causing more problems that it is worth. Considering this is a map for now, i would prefer to leave it as it is now.


Version 28 below small and large

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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby gimil on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:02 pm

The lantern paths arn't a big problem carins I can live with them :)
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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby iancanton on Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:38 pm

cairnswk wrote:With regards to Iancantons' request to change the name character orientation on both maps to swap them around, i have tried to do that and it is causing more problems that it is worth. Considering this is a map for now, i would prefer to leave it as it is now.

no worries. that was only a minor observation.

the names of the rulers and outsiders are a mish-mash of traditional spellings and modern chinese pinyin romanisation. to be consistent, i propose sticking to traditional names and spellings throughout (as used in english-language media before 1980) since Sun Yat-sen, for example, would be unrecognisable to most non-chinese as Sun Zhongshan. under this convention, Li Zicheng becomes Li Tzu-ch'eng and Emp. ChongZhen becomes Emp. Ch'ung-chen.

http://www.calgarycoin.com/cast7.htm

ian. :)
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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby cairnswk on Thu Aug 21, 2008 7:51 pm

iancanton wrote:
cairnswk wrote:With regards to Iancantons' request to change the name character orientation on both maps to swap them around, i have tried to do that and it is causing more problems that it is worth. Considering this is a map for now, i would prefer to leave it as it is now.

no worries. that was only a minor observation.

the names of the rulers and outsiders are a mish-mash of traditional spellings and modern chinese pinyin romanisation. to be consistent, i propose sticking to traditional names and spellings throughout (as used in english-language media before 1980) since Sun Yat-sen, for example, would be unrecognisable to most non-chinese as Sun Zhongshan. under this convention, Li Zicheng becomes Li Tzu-ch'eng and Emp. ChongZhen becomes Emp. Ch'ung-chen.

http://www.calgarycoin.com/cast7.htm

ian. :)


Done Ian, thanks, next upload.
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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby Androidz on Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:10 pm

Hmm could you try move the pictures of the impassibles (on legend) to the end of legend/Corner. LIke you do witht the bonuses? or will that look bad
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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby cairnswk on Fri Aug 22, 2008 7:36 am

Androidz wrote:Hmm could you try move the pictures of the impassibles (on legend) to the end of legend/Corner. LIke you do witht the bonuses? or will that look bad


no....but may be possible.. i'll see :)
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Re: Forbidden City V28 (P22) [I,Gp] - Graphic changes

Postby Androidz on Fri Aug 22, 2008 10:38 am

cairnswk wrote:
Androidz wrote:Hmm could you try move the pictures of the impassibles (on legend) to the end of legend/Corner. LIke you do witht the bonuses? or will that look bad


no....but may be possible.. i'll see :)



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