[CCXIV] R2: ACES (22) vs FALL (14)

[Chariot of Fire]

I'll hasten to add there were other games that the player took his turn in that had more time on the clock, so Vancouver was deliberately left till last so the player could leave it unfinished and log out. That's pretty low guys!

[GoranZ]

Game 23116834
If this is not a clear case of "running out of time to not get a spoil" then nothing is.
To me its 100% clear that this was on purpose, and its not only dirty tactics, but according to the rules of CC14, its breaking the rules.
But I still think we have it, but its not as clear as it was before it, if yellow had ended the turn it would have been GG almost for sure.
I can suggest to they guys inn the game what they should have done instead if they want, and that would have been to just not attack and "take a card", ok I would have had a bit better odds on a pink kill, but still not great odds, but atleast it would not have been cheating.
According to the rules of CC14 "Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited. The first time a clan breaks this rule in CC14 the game must be re-made (unless the other clan wants the game to stand). Each subsequent violation during CC14 will result in a forfeit of the game.", the way I am reading the rules, this means ACES just got handed a freebie, if we win the game then we will let it stand, but if we loose we can get a rematch, have I interpreted the rule right?
Just to end this post I have to say I understand that you guys had to try and cheat the system, a 3.division clan is probably putting up a bit to much of a fight to just play it cleanly.

Could you provide info how we benefited?

I have to say I understand that you guys had to try and cheat the system

Lets not remind you that your clan accused us of being a cheaters even before any games were made? This is not acceptable. Will we get a apology or should I open support ticket?

the way I am reading the rules, this means ACES just got handed a freebie, if we win the game then we will let it stand, but if we loose we can get a rematch, have I interpreted the rule right?

No, you are reading this you see fit. If you guys like a rematch you cant do it after the game ended.

Contacting CD's was a proper way to resolve this. They can review the logs and chat.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Game 23116834
If this is not a clear case of "running out of time to not get a spoil" then nothing is.
To me its 100% clear that this was on purpose, and its not only dirty tactics, but according to the rules of CC14, its breaking the rules.
But I still think we have it, but its not as clear as it was before it, if yellow had ended the turn it would have been GG almost for sure.
I can suggest to they guys inn the game what they should have done instead if they want, and that would have been to just not attack and "take a card", ok I would have had a bit better odds on a pink kill, but still not great odds, but atleast it would not have been cheating.
According to the rules of CC14 "Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited. The first time a clan breaks this rule in CC14 the game must be re-made (unless the other clan wants the game to stand). Each subsequent violation during CC14 will result in a forfeit of the game.", the way I am reading the rules, this means ACES just got handed a freebie, if we win the game then we will let it stand, but if we loose we can get a rematch, have I interpreted the rule right?
Just to end this post I have to say I understand that you guys had to try and cheat the system, a 3.division clan is probably putting up a bit to much of a fight to just play it cleanly.

Could you provide info how we benefited?

Lmao are you serious. yellow having 1 spoil instead of 2 so green could not kill it to cash.

[GoranZ]

Lmao are you serious. yellow having 1 spoil instead of 2 so green could not kill it to cash.

But you didn't, you targeted only pink.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

Lmao are you serious. yellow having 1 spoil instead of 2 so green could not kill it to cash.

But you didn't, you targeted only pink.

Of course. Cause why would we target yellow with 1 spoil. We would have targeted yellow if he had 2, as he should have after taking a tert.

[GoranZ]

Lmao are you serious. yellow having 1 spoil instead of 2 so green could not kill it to cash.

But you didn't, you targeted only pink.

Of course. Cause why would we target yellow with 1 spoil. We would have targeted yellow if he had 2, as he should have after taking a tert.

Contact CD's for investigation. They can review the logs and chat.

[rockfist]

It’s hard to judge what someone else’s intentions are. Hopefully the rules are clearly written so there is no need.

Different circumstances but I recall a clan game on Woodboro where our opponent didn’t take a turn after being eliminated in all but a killer neutral position (rationalizing that by starting the turn they were “suiciding”) which could have allowed a teammate to kill them. That was deemed a violation of clan rules.

[Donelladan]

I was confused at how it would be interesting to take a teammate regions to then run out of time.
To me, in an escalating game, the only good reason to take a teammate region is to take a card. Or maybe to set him up for elimination later by another teammate, or to take a bonus.

With that new auto snap feature we're all able to see the snapshots since it's a sunny game. Pretty nice.

I had a quick look at it, and I cannot see why it would've been interesting for FALL in this situation to have yellow take a single pink. It doesn't help them in any way I can see.
Therefore I think you should consider what t4mcr53s2 said is probably true : he forgot to end assault, and took a region instead of making a fort.

Despite what t4mcr53s2 said being true, one could still argue that logging off without ending turn is intentionally missing a card, which is what t4mcr53s2 did and said he did.

But no need to accuse each other here of cheating here, @ACES, take a minute to consider even if it seems like cheating, some other explanation are plausible and could be true. (note, was accused of cheating before while being totally honest, but when someone is convinced you're cheating it's difficult to let him see it was just random situation that looks like that).

[Chariot of Fire]

I agree that the hit was accidental, but once the mistake was noticed he opted not to win a card and that in itself is where it contravenes the rules.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

I was confused at how it would be interesting to take a teammate regions to then run out of time.
To me, in an escalating game, the only good reason to take a teammate region is to take a card. Or maybe to set him up for elimination later by another teammate, or to take a bonus.

With that new auto snap feature we're all able to see the snapshots since it's a sunny game. Pretty nice.

I had a quick look at it, and I cannot see why it would've been interesting for FALL in this situation to have yellow take a single pink. It doesn't help them in any way I can see.
Therefore I think you should consider what t4mcr53s2 said is probably true : he forgot to end assault, and took a region instead of making a fort.

Despite what t4mcr53s2 said being true, one could still argue that logging off without ending turn is intentionally missing a card, which is what t4mcr53s2 did and said he did.

But no need to accuse each other here of cheating here, @ACES, take a minute to consider even if it seems like cheating, some other explanation are plausible and could be true. (note, was accused of cheating before while being totally honest, but when someone is convinced you're cheating it's difficult to let him see it was just random situation that looks like that).

We do belive T4 taking a tert is a honest mistake. Actually they would have most likely win the game with the move and with the pink set. Now running out of time does not seems a honest mistake. And even if it was I think that people should not get rewarded by mistakes. he took a tert by mistake. then he owns it and finish the turn. You do realize would have been ACES game if he just finish the turn, right? Maybe he wass pissed still they took advantage of not finishg the turn

[TrafalgarLaw01]

I have ACES on 25 wins now . Despite the early situation with games creation and the vancouver case. It was an incredible well played war by both clans and congrats to FALL who certainly have a bunch of skilled players.

ACES going places. We want LHDD to beat SM so we can have the payback war againt the only clan that have defeated ACES so far.

[Caymanmew]

Hey all,

Reading what people are saying here and in the C&A thread, many seem to believe this is a clear cut issue with a clear outcome, but groovysmurf, the other CDs and I don't feel that way. This is an incredibly difficult situation to judge and determine a ruling on for a number of reasons.

One of the main problems we're having is with the exact wording of the rule, as seen in the CCXIV main thread, which was simply copy/pasted from the previous Conquerors Cup. We believe the way this was written causes a number of potential issues.

Game abuse like purposely running out of time or throwing a game is prohibited. The first time a clan breaks this rule in CC14 the game must be re-made (unless the other clan wants the game to stand). Each subsequent violation during CC14 will result in a forfeit of the game.

Now the first issue we run into is "purposely". By having the word "purposely" as part of the example, that would mean that if it was not done purposely than it isn't against the rules, but how do we determine intent? How can one ever know if something is done "purposely", and therefore, how can one ever be expected to make a ruling that something was or was not done "purposely". The explanation of what happened by t4mcr53s2 in chat could easily be accepted as not "purposely" running out of time. Groovy and I have both timed out in games with no intent to do so, as have probably many CC players. One could also call BS and say he did intentionally run out of time as a strategic move. Both situations are reasonable conclusions, but the problem is we simply can't know.

The next issue is with the phrase "game abuse". Game abuse is a general blanket term for all sorts of abuse against site rules but not necessarily specifically written. In our view, game abuse as stated here directly connects to game abuse as stated under the unwritten rules of CC.

I am not a C&A mod, I do not follow C&A closely, and I do not have an exact list as to what is or is not game abuse, or what precedents have been set in the past with regards to game abuse. Therefore I believe I, and the rest of my team, are unqualified to determine what is or isn't game abuse. As such, my opinion is that game abuse (as game abuse IS against site rules) should be determined in C&A and if they determine game abuse happened, we as the CD team would react with punishments on the clan side. That is what the C&A forum is for and why it exists, as king achilles says here.

This is the Cheating & Abuse forum where one can report a game if they see something suspicious going on or if they see any forrm of game abuse and they would like to report it.

My request to ACES to file the matter in C&A in order to determine if game abuse had in fact been committed was a perfectly reasonable thing to request as again, we as CDs don't have the same understanding or experience as the cheating and abuse moderators do when it comes to "game abuse".

Both Groovy and myself have read and reread the rule and we are still having issues making a decision. Looking back at past Conquerors Cup rules for clarity on the matter we found more questions and concerns than answers. In CC4, the rule about game abuse, and specifically about timing out to avoid spoils, was first introduced by chemefreak.

Any deemed abuse should be brought to the attention of the Cup Organisers immediately.
...
Deliberately timing out in Escalating and Nuclear games to avoid taking a spoil will not be tolerated by any players.

This is not a common occurrence and we do not expect to see it happen at all but a rule should be in place to prevent abuse.

If a team breaks this rule the game must be re-made. (unless the wronged clan want the game to stand)

If a clan repeatedly breaks the rule then an escalating scale of punishment will apply.

This rule stayed the same for CC5, with just a minor rewrite.

Any abuse should be brought to the attention of the TO immediately.

Deliberately timing out in Escalating and Nuclear games to avoid taking a spoil will not be tolerated by any players.
This is not a common occurrence and we do not expect to see it happen at all but a rule should be in place to prevent abuse.
The first time a clan breaks this rule in the Cup the game must be re-made. [Unless other clan wants game to stand]
Each subsequent violation during the Cup will result in a forfeit of the game.

However, in CC6, the way the rules were written was completely changed, making them much less clear and more ambiguous. Subsequent Conquerors Cup were basically just a copy/paste of these rules. Since Groovy and I took over running Conquerors Cup, we have tried to update the rules and clear up anything that could cause confusion. We obviously missed this particular part, perhaps because the issue has never really come up or we simply brushed past that part as so many others have done over the years.

Another issue we have is with the timing of the complaint. ACES did not officially report (complaining about something in the forum is NOT the same as reporting the issue to the tournament organizers) the suspected abuse immediately after it occurred, instead they waited until after green had played and failed in eliminating pink. One thing you'll see in the CC4 and CC5 rule is that the suspected abuse must be brought up to the TOs immediately. Nowhere in the current rules does it state when a report must be made, which causes quite a bit of confusion and basically means that anyone can report anything at anytime. However, common sense should apply and one would assume that a clan cannot wait until a game is complete or decided to file a complaint, at least reasonably.

-----------------------------

As for this case, our final ruling is that the game in question will NOT be remade. The main factor that influenced our decision was the ruling from C&A that this is not game abuse. As we stated above, the CD team is not qualified or experienced enough to make that ruling. This decision also comes at least partially from something that ACES themselves wrote in the C&A forum.

...I do not believe any website rule or abuse has been committed...

If they themselves don't believe any game abuse has been committed, and C&A agrees, than there were no grounds for the report in the first place and certainly no need for the game to be remade.

-------------------------------------------------

Overall, the rules MUST be rewritten, they are unclear and open-ended to the point we struggle to make any kind of ruling whatsoever in this current situation. There is a disclaimer at the bottom of the rules stating

The format and the rules are subject to change if deemed appropriate by the CD Team.

We will be using this to do an edit of these rules to increase clarity.


The following are the newly written rules, which are effective immediately.

General Rules & Comments

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[GoranZ]

Thank you for the investigation and the clarification Caymanmew.

Since FALL was accused for cheating by ACES, on multiple occasions(for both Round 1 and Round 2) and none was proven I think that apology is needed here.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

You do realize the game was not remade only because of the wording, not because it was ok, otherwise there wouldn't be a rewording. Ur team took advantage of running out of time so u didnt get an spoil. U won't get away with that one again.

[rockfist]

Not being able to “prove” something was done intentionally is not the same as an “innocent” verdict. Not even close. Intentional or unintentional, you should be issuing an apology for the game having the appearance of not being fair.

[GoranZ]

You do realize the game was not remade only because of the wording, not because it was ok, otherwise there wouldn't be a rewording. Ur team took advantage of running out of time so u didnt get an spoil.

You have a ruling from the officials that you do not respect... And this is not the first time that happened in this thread.
Its about time to respect the verdicts from the officials where ever you like them or not

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

[GoranZ]

Not being able to “prove” something was done intentionally is not the same as an “innocent” verdict. Not even close. Intentional or unintentional, you should be issuing an apology for the game having the appearance of not being fair.

How many times should we ask for you to stay away from FALL threads?

You are not welcomed!

[TrafalgarLaw01]

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

Not a threat at all. I am just stating facts: running out of time won't give u games in the future. Good luck on the next edition

[rockfist]

Not being able to “prove” something was done intentionally is not the same as an “innocent” verdict. Not even close. Intentional or unintentional, you should be issuing an apology for the game having the appearance of not being fair.

How many times should we ask for you to stay away from FALL threads?

You are not welcomed!

It’s a public thread. I’ll post if I want.

[theflycassanova]

How am I just discovering this thread now!?!

[GoranZ]

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

Not a threat at all. I am just stating facts: running out of time won't give u games in the future. Good luck on the next edition

You don't have a capacity to state any facts... It was seen twice in this thread, and both times you were wrong.
But you can freely continue to live in your world of made up fabrications and lies. Good luck for you, luckily for us we don't have to

[detlef]

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

Not a threat at all. I am just stating facts: running out of time won't give u games in the future. Good luck on the next edition

You don't have a capacity to state any facts... It was seen twice in this thread, and both times you were wrong.
But you can freely continue to live in your world of made up fabrications and lies. Good luck for you, luckily for us we don't have to

I like living in Rafa's "world of made-up fabrications and lies". It's a magical place indeed. A place where we can spot you a game that "may or may not have been won due to unsavory circumstances" and still beat you. Oh, and I should mention, the water tastes like wine.

[TrafalgarLaw01]

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

Not a threat at all. I am just stating facts: running out of time won't give u games in the future. Good luck on the next edition

You don't have a capacity to state any facts... It was seen twice in this thread, and both times you were wrong.
But you can freely continue to live in your world of made up fabrications and lies. Good luck for you, luckily for us we don't have to

How am I wrong if a rewritting of the rules was made? If CAT's had said "we don't see anything bad here, play on" then you would have been right. But do you realize that the new ruling won't let anyone use cheap tactics or "mistakes" like running out of time to not get a card to avoid losing a game due to a mistake. You better start playing the game as its supposed to and not using loopholes. cause even when you took a game that way it was not enough to beat us.

[GoranZ]

U won't get away with that one again.

And certainly don't make threats... its is not up to you, and will never be up to you.

Not a threat at all. I am just stating facts: running out of time won't give u games in the future. Good luck on the next edition

You don't have a capacity to state any facts... It was seen twice in this thread, and both times you were wrong.
But you can freely continue to live in your world of made up fabrications and lies. Good luck for you, luckily for us we don't have to

How am I wrong if a rewritting of the rules was made? If CAT's had said "we don't see anything bad here, play on" then you would have been right. But do you realize that the new ruling won't let anyone use cheap tactics or "mistakes" like running out of time to not get a card to avoid losing a game due to a mistake. You better start playing the game as its supposed to and not using loopholes. cause even when you took a game that way it was not enough to beat us.

Let me help you with the reading of the ruling

...I do not believe any website rule or abuse has been committed...

If they themselves don't believe any game abuse has been committed, and C&A agrees, than there were no grounds for the report in the first place and certainly no need for the game to be remade.

For the last time... Accusing FALL or FALL members of cheating is not according to the website rules. You have done it twice so far(in Round 1 and in Round 2), and in both cases the rulings were against your accusations!