Perception of Top 10 Clans [Annually + Longevity]

[Blitzaholic]

Wasee, you do NOT get it, at least Foxglove did, 80 games compared to 16 against one clan is a monster difference. In the clan league, when you play a different clan, it is still 16 games per clan rival. There is more luck on every 16 game match up and more skill on 80, PERIOD. Maybe Jp can come in here and weigh on this, but, that's the truth.

nope YOU do not get it. I am sure someone more adept at Statistics than you or I can prove that the league weight should be the same as a clan challenge weight. It really is the same concept as having more players in a game, versus having more games.

Yes, I agree that Thota vs. Kort 5-11 does not count for much. But that fact that Kort has 70%, while Thota lingers at 50% in the entire league does.

I disagree, it is too many smaller samples being lumped into one big one, it is NOT the same.

[Blitzaholic]

The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan.

Without taking a definite stand one way or another, this is the crux of the matter. It's disingenuous to consistently refer to the Clan League as just a "20 game challenge". Obviously individual weeks cannot be used to determine which clan is the best; over so few games anything can happen - but over a full season it should certainly count for something.

It is 16 games against one clan, NOT 20, so it has little weight, but has some weight. It would count for something and be a great accomplishment, but, it would not spring a number #6 clan lets say all the way to #1 cause they won some 16 clan match ups and never beat big dawgs in 60, or 80, or 100 clan challenges. That is all i was saying.

[waseemalim]

So, let's say you win the clan season 2, that would not put you ahead of Thota, Tsm or Tofu, why? cause you NEVER beat them in big challenges.

Yes that is *your* criteria, and may well be the criteria for some other people. But that is not *everyone's* criteria for judging success.

In my opinion the clan league tests a clan's versatility against all other clans. Whereas clan challenges are just a against one clan and the results of it are more prone to disputes. It is a commonly held view within LoW that picking random maps against o&h lead us to that spectacular defeat (and not too mention how severely disorganized we were back then). I can claim that the results of that match-up is not valid. But I am not because it was our fault. All I am saying is that challenges are as imperfect as the league and you should take results of *both* with a pinch of salt (whereas you seem to always lean towards whatever suits Thota).

[john9blue]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

[Big Whiskey]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

I guess you don't visit the forums that often.Blitz has many threads on CC.

[Fruitcake]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

I guess you don't visit the forums that often.Blitz has many threads on CC.

All of which seem to have a common denominator...

[Blitzaholic]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

I made the thread, because of CC Clan history, it was nice to bring back memories and some may not of known who were some great clans, the years, when they formed, where they are now? etc. I think Jp did a great thing with competition and shown some ideas with rankings over last couple years. He devised like 6 to 10 different systems to appease everyone, and it was NOT possible, he took some heat, just like I am. I respect him for the efforts though. I thought I would with help from others and add the forgotten and missing years. It was not too hard to add 2006 to 2008 when you have a good dozen plus players who remember those years well, and who was who back then. This was just suppose to be a fun thread with some clan history. It is subjective hence the word perception in the title and Courtney really likes that now, which I am happy (no pun intended), but, also we wanted an honest and reasonable list of ranks. Page one looks so much better now, then what I had originally and a lot of thanks goes to many posting in here and pm's I received. I respect all the clans on CC and have many friends from almost every clan, if not all of them. I did not mean for this to be heated and I apologize to all those if it may, that was NOT the intention. No one person can please everyone, not even the most powerful, hence the president. But, we can come to a close and reasonable discussion that has some merits.

[Blitzaholic]

So, let's say you win the clan season 2, that would not put you ahead of Thota, Tsm or Tofu, why? cause you NEVER beat them in big challenges.

Yes that is *your* criteria, and may well be the criteria for some other people. But that is not *everyone's* criteria for judging success.

In my opinion the clan league tests a clan's versatility against all other clans. Whereas clan challenges are just a against one clan and the results of it are more prone to disputes. It is a commonly held view within LoW that picking random maps against o&h lead us to that spectacular defeat (and not too mention how severely disorganized we were back then). I can claim that the results of that match-up is not valid. But I am not because it was our fault. All I am saying is that challenges are as imperfect as the league and you should take results of *both* with a pinch of salt (whereas you seem to always lean towards whatever suits Thota).

It is NOT my criteria, there is a clan forum on CC where the clan leaders go and discuss things, and most agreed that 16 games would NOT count towards the ladder. These discussions and votes, polls are private to all clan leaders from all clans. If your leaders from your clan are NOT sharing updates and things with you, I suggest you talk to them.

[Blitzaholic]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

I guess you don't visit the forums that often.Blitz has many threads on CC.

All of which seem to have a common denominator...

Jealousy can transform into hatred which leads to a dark and lonely place within yourself, do not permit some to rent free space in your mind and control you. Let it go and liberate yourself to feel free spirited. It is much easier to live within your skin when you allow this to happen. Now, normally that session would cost you $140.00, but, heck, I kind of like you and will give you those words of wisdom for free. happy birthday.

[Fruitcake]

I can't deny that THOTA is probably the top clan now, I just can't help but think you wouldn't have made this thread if you weren't a part of them, hence the "tooting your own horn". I though we already had clan rankings anyway...

I guess you don't visit the forums that often.Blitz has many threads on CC.

All of which seem to have a common denominator...

Jealousy can transform into hatred which leads to a dark and lonely place within yourself, do not permit some to rent free space in your mind and control you. Let it go and liberate yourself to feel free spirited. It is much easier to live within your skin when you allow this to happen. Now, normally that session would cost you $140.00, but, heck, I kind of like you and will give you those words of wisdom for free. happy birthday.

Don't you go worrying about me being jealous of anyone Blitz. When you fly private as I do life takes on a different hue.

[khazalid]

on that note mate, do you know what the common denominator in your posts is?

pro-tip: 'golden thread'

(not the gnostic kind either)

[danryan]

So, let's say you win the clan season 2, that would not put you ahead of Thota, Tsm or Tofu, why? cause you NEVER beat them in big challenges.

Yes that is *your* criteria, and may well be the criteria for some other people. But that is not *everyone's* criteria for judging success.

In my opinion the clan league tests a clan's versatility against all other clans. Whereas clan challenges are just a against one clan and the results of it are more prone to disputes. It is a commonly held view within LoW that picking random maps against o&h lead us to that spectacular defeat (and not too mention how severely disorganized we were back then). I can claim that the results of that match-up is not valid. But I am not because it was our fault. All I am saying is that challenges are as imperfect as the league and you should take results of *both* with a pinch of salt (whereas you seem to always lean towards whatever suits Thota).

Guess you guys are looking forward to the rematch too.

[waseemalim]

So, let's say you win the clan season 2, that would not put you ahead of Thota, Tsm or Tofu, why? cause you NEVER beat them in big challenges.

Yes that is *your* criteria, and may well be the criteria for some other people. But that is not *everyone's* criteria for judging success.

In my opinion the clan league tests a clan's versatility against all other clans. Whereas clan challenges are just a against one clan and the results of it are more prone to disputes. It is a commonly held view within LoW that picking random maps against o&h lead us to that spectacular defeat (and not too mention how severely disorganized we were back then). I can claim that the results of that match-up is not valid. But I am not because it was our fault. All I am saying is that challenges are as imperfect as the league and you should take results of *both* with a pinch of salt (whereas you seem to always lean towards whatever suits Thota).

It is NOT my criteria, there is a clan forum on CC where the clan leaders go and discuss things, and most agreed that 16 games would NOT count towards the ladder. These discussions and votes, polls are private to all clan leaders from all clans. If your leaders from your clan are NOT sharing updates and things with you, I suggest you talk to them.

Umm yes, I am not really as privileged. I used to be part of that thing. And during clan league season 1, I had argued, rather cogently, that it should count in the ladder -- and for a while it did. It really depends on the sort of ladder whether to count those games or not. If you are taking results of two clans as a whole. Then ofcourse you should count them.

On the other hand if you are just counting challenge wins you shouldn't.

But that is hardly the point. whether these games count in the ladder or not is totally different from whether these are valid *as a whole*. firstly these are NOT 16 games where one clan plays another clan. Its 100+ games where a clan plays all clans in the division. In the second case its extremely valid and to claim otherwise is, for the lack of a better word, dumb.

[waseemalim]

Here is my post on counting games:

viewtopic.php?f=443&t=90907&p=2146256&hilit=+ladder#p2146256

[khazalid]

for what it's worth i would like to add something to the clan challenge vs. league debate.

a clan challenge is usually large enough to mitigate any big swings in luck.

a CLA season is larger but more condensed. what matters most seems to be when you get your luck. well 'most' is a little disingenuous, but the point remains. if you can get a bit of luck against an LoW, a TOFU, an IA then it's gonna stand you in far better stead than against a VDLL, a L4D etc.

[danryan]

So here's the dirty little secret about the CLA (in my opinion). You could scrounge together 6 top players and probably dominate the CLA league for a whole season. No way you could do that for a large clan war. So the CLA favors any clan with a couple of elite players who can guide their small matchups each week. O&H, ID, AOD, BSS, G1, and Nemesis (as a few examples) are probably not ever going to do great in a CLA format as they are broad in talent but maybe don't have the elite players that a LOW, TSM, TOFU, IA, KORT, or THOTA do. And maybe to some extent THOTA falls in this category as well. But if you look at a large clan challenge, where there is no way a squad can consist of say 8 players who do all the work, the couple of elite players just can't compensate for a lack of breadth.

My suspicion is that our win against LOW was more of a result of depth than random maps - but the rematch will provide some further evidence. I also think the reason the dragoons are giving IA such a hellacious time is their depth. Same reason G1 is such a tough matchup (witness their tie with KORT and a tough war with TOFU). The reason I think TOFU, THOTA and TSM are so head and shoulders above everyone else is the combination of elite players and a deep pool of strong team players.

Bottom line - different competitions require different strengths - but let there be no doubt that a small format 8 game per week competition favors clans that are top heavy with a few excellent players.

[Chuuuuck]

for what it's worth i would like to add something to the clan challenge vs. league debate.

a clan challenge is usually large enough to mitigate any big swings in luck.

a CLA season is larger but more condensed. what matters most seems to be when you get your luck. well 'most' is a little disingenuous, but the point remains. if you can get a bit of luck against an LoW, a TOFU, an IA then it's gonna stand you in far better stead than against a VDLL, a L4D etc.

I think this is the best anyone has described the issue so far.

[khazalid]

every dog has his day in the end

[jpcloet]

Based on the variations so far, it would seem like the league is more likely to swing from week to week.

However, I would argue that the standardization withing the league is far better than within all the challenges.

Each has its own merit.

[freakns]

blitz, as usual, you are not making much sense. The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan. You could have bad luck versus Empire, but if you are having bad luck versus L4D, KORT and IA as well -- then well may be its not bad luck. The games are as valid, if not more, as any clan challenge. Its not 20 games here and there, its 20 games all over the place.

We are not ranked top 5 because we lost a 36 game challenge to O&H, involving all random maps. I am not saying that O&H does not deserve this victory, but I am also not saying that this victory is somehow superior to O&H's overall record in the league.

Yes fine that the winner of clan league wont make it top of *your* list, I understand that view. But you do not seem to appreciate that the other side has a point as well.

You are not being honest, you are being bigoted and senseless. You just make make yourself think that you are being neutral and honest.

p.s. I am not claiming honesty myself. I know I am biased because we are leading our division. but blitz you too are biased because you havent been defeated. our yardsticks are different, and I am sure other people have different yardsticks as well. But dont go around touting that your measure is somehow superior, because then you get into a shitfight.

EDIT: If you read through the thread of LoW versus Thota you will realize that the games were pretty close till the very last moment. It was not a decisive victory for Thota, just as Kort's lead over IA is not decisive in the league right now.

i dont wanna be devils advocate here, but you are missing a point.
first of all, clan league can not carry same weigh as clan war if for nothing else, for the reason doubles are making 50% of games. its fun, it is somehow significant, but overall, can not carry that much weight.
from my point of view, looks a lot like LoW can not accept the fact they arent top 3 clan anymore. and that is a fact. THOTA, TSM and TOFU are leading the pack now, i think its more then clear, and its not my or blitz point of view(for that matter, you may ask Inca, Chuck or Foxy, i put LoW above TOFU in my voting for conquer cup), its an opinion shared through CC community. and yeah, that loss to O&H hurts your reputation big time, and even winning CLA wouldnt change that as people are paying much more attention to clan wars.
and is THOTA still no1 clan? yes, they are. well, i guess their marketing is doing hell of a job... and will possible LoW win of CLA change that? nope. i guess you guys need to work a bit on your marketing...

PS. nice to have any kind of list here. newcomers like me can see who were the great clans in the beginning of CC

[freakns]

O&H, ID, AOD, BSS, G1, and Nemesis (as a few examples) are probably not ever going to do great in a CLA format as they are broad in talent but maybe don't have the elite players that a LOW, TSM, TOFU, IA, KORT, or THOTA do.

you can kiss my not so elite ass, you know!
and we arent doing that bad actually. we have pretty much same record as THOTA!

but overall, sadly to say, you do have a point(the world is about to collapse now...)

[waseemalim]

blitz, as usual, you are not making much sense. The clan league is not just 20 odd games. Its over a 100 games for each clan. You could have bad luck versus Empire, but if you are having bad luck versus L4D, KORT and IA as well -- then well may be its not bad luck. The games are as valid, if not more, as any clan challenge. Its not 20 games here and there, its 20 games all over the place.

We are not ranked top 5 because we lost a 36 game challenge to O&H, involving all random maps. I am not saying that O&H does not deserve this victory, but I am also not saying that this victory is somehow superior to O&H's overall record in the league.

Yes fine that the winner of clan league wont make it top of *your* list, I understand that view. But you do not seem to appreciate that the other side has a point as well.

You are not being honest, you are being bigoted and senseless. You just make make yourself think that you are being neutral and honest.

p.s. I am not claiming honesty myself. I know I am biased because we are leading our division. but blitz you too are biased because you havent been defeated. our yardsticks are different, and I am sure other people have different yardsticks as well. But dont go around touting that your measure is somehow superior, because then you get into a shitfight.

EDIT: If you read through the thread of LoW versus Thota you will realize that the games were pretty close till the very last moment. It was not a decisive victory for Thota, just as Kort's lead over IA is not decisive in the league right now.

i dont wanna be devils advocate here, but you are missing a point.
first of all, clan league can not carry same weigh as clan war if for nothing else, for the reason doubles are making 50% of games. its fun, it is somehow significant, but overall, can not carry that much weight.
from my point of view, looks a lot like LoW can not accept the fact they arent top 3 clan anymore. and that is a fact. THOTA, TSM and TOFU are leading the pack now, i think its more then clear, and its not my or blitz point of view(for that matter, you may ask Inca, Chuck or Foxy, i put LoW above TOFU in my voting for conquer cup), its an opinion shared through CC community. and yeah, that loss to O&H hurts your reputation big time, and even winning CLA wouldnt change that as people are paying much more attention to clan wars.
and is THOTA still no1 clan? yes, they are. well, i guess their marketing is doing hell of a job... and will possible LoW win of CLA change that? nope. i guess you guys need to work a bit on your marketing...

PS. nice to have any kind of list here. newcomers like me can see who were the great clans in the beginning of CC

Regarding the argument that clan league should not carry as much weight because its too double heavy. Well I think that argument does not hold if you actually look at the numbers -- and you probably missed my previous post on it. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=109045&start=150#p2452091

Of course I am pissed that we are not top 3 now. Do I think we deserve to be top 3 with our current challenge record. Nope, I don't. And I mentioned this point in the post that you quoted. You guys may hold whatever views you please, but to claim that your views are somehow unbiased and superior is what I have a problem with. To discount the league as irrelevant because it does not have x number of games is a very flawed logic. The dice can tip a challenge as much as it tips the league. And that is all I have tried to argue throughout the thread.

And most importantly it should not be "marketing" that determines rank.

[Georgerx7di]

Wow, by the time I'm finished reading someone has posted again. This has become the hot topic. The new popular thread. After 35 pages of stroking the details in the Conqueror's Cup thread, I guess we all needed something new to float our boats. Good work blitz

[jpcloet]

LOL, nice George. For the RPI ladder, Feb 28th is a key date

[danryan]

O&H, ID, AOD, BSS, G1, and Nemesis (as a few examples) are probably not ever going to do great in a CLA format as they are broad in talent but maybe don't have the elite players that a LOW, TSM, TOFU, IA, KORT, or THOTA do.

you can kiss my not so elite ass, you know!
and we arent doing that bad actually. we have pretty much same record as THOTA!

but overall, sadly to say, you do have a point(the world is about to collapse now...)

You know you're the only reason I had to include Nemesis in this group. If you weren't there they'd probably be in the top 3 freak.