Perception of Top 10 Clans [Annually + Longevity]

[Georgerx7di]

LOL, nice George. For the RPI ladder, Feb 28th is a key date

You coming out with a new ladder JP?

[pmchugh]

LOL, nice George. For the RPI ladder, Feb 28th is a key date

You coming out with a new ladder JP?

Ooh bagsie on first go at how its wrong

[freakns]

Regarding the argument that clan league should not carry as much weight because its too double heavy. Well I think that argument does not hold if you actually look at the numbers -- and you probably missed my previous post on it. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=109045&start=150#p2452091

as one of sports commentators use to say "stats are like bikini. it implies a lot, but actually shows nothing"... just like in this case. lets say you play doubles against some less then average players on big map and both you and your partner get shitty rolls in first turn. then look at same situation in quads. most likely you will get out of a jam in quads just as you will get burned in doubles...

Of course I am pissed that we are not top 3 now. Do I think we deserve to be top 3 with our current challenge record. Nope, I don't. And I mentioned this point in the post that you quoted. You guys may hold whatever views you please, but to claim that your views are somehow unbiased and superior is what I have a problem with. To discount the league as irrelevant because it does not have x number of games is a very flawed logic. The dice can tip a challenge as much as it tips the league. And that is all I have tried to argue throughout the thread.

i dont claim my opinion isnt biased. im stating something that we might call "collective mind of CC". is it wrong? well, it sure as hell isnt right, but since there is no valid formula for determine true clan strength, that biased opinion is all we have. and like it or not, blitz list does support that opinion as most of CC community thinks differently then you.

And most importantly it should not be "marketing" that determines rank.

it shouldnt. as it shouldnt decide which beer you will take or who will win president elections, but the truth is somehow different...

O&H, ID, AOD, BSS, G1, and Nemesis (as a few examples) are probably not ever going to do great in a CLA format as they are broad in talent but maybe don't have the elite players that a LOW, TSM, TOFU, IA, KORT, or THOTA do.

you can kiss my not so elite ass, you know!
and we arent doing that bad actually. we have pretty much same record as THOTA!

but overall, sadly to say, you do have a point(the world is about to collapse now...)

You know you're the only reason I had to include Nemesis in this group. If you weren't there they'd probably be in the top 3 freak.

i know that, but i have to give blitz hope that Nemesis wouldnt suppress THOTA

[Hopscotcher]

Anbody want a cheeto?

here's hoping this post simply gets lost in the debate, but will still pop up in my "view your posts" page.

Ta,
Hopper

[Gold Knight]

Everyone needs to take 10 seconds here and take their coke and a smile...

If you dont like how Blitz made his list, make your own. He has been more than willing to accept suggestions to the lists he put up, and with enough backing he has changed them. It seems now we are arguing about 2010, which he deleted from this first post. Thus the majority of the post recently regarding the 2nd CLA league really dont have a place in here, even if it is a good argument that can be made from either side. If we can have some discussions based on challenges, or even the first CLA league, im sure there would be more of an open discussion, rather than this back-and-forth "No, YOU dont get it"'s because the results are already in and finalized... Just my two cents, which is the same value of Blitz's as mentioned in the thread earlier.

And also like to mention how my mighty clan leader, JP, posted a neutral response to a question mentioned in here, making sure to avoid any type of controversy from anyone. Guess he takes enough heat on his ladders, that he now has to pick his battles...

[ahunda]

It is NOT my criteria, there is a clan forum on CC where the clan leaders go and discuss things, and most agreed that 16 games would NOT count towards the ladder. These discussions and votes, polls are private to all clan leaders from all clans. If your leaders from your clan are NOT sharing updates and things with you, I suggest you talk to them.

You are over-simplifying & taking things out of its context here . The one & only official poll in CLA on the issue had a huge majority in favour of including the clan league in the ladder. And when season 1 took off, it was actually agreed, that it would count for the ladder.

It was you, who raised a stink, when season 1 was concluded & jpcloet included it in the ladder in a way, that THOTA suddenly had a loss in its clan challenge record. I don´t know, if he simply gave in to your bullying & pressuring (threats of THOTA not playing season 2 and the like), or if he had other reasons beyond that, but the decision to remove the league from all later ladders was made by him, not by a majority in CLA. As a matter of fact, many CLA members have repeatedly stated, they are still in favour of including the league.

Nobody here wants to put too much weight on the out-come of a 16 game set (and I for one never wanted to include those league sets in the official clan challenge records). But to suggest, that the performance of a clan in an entire season of 112 competitive clan games should be less significant than any 30-40 game challenge, is ridiculous.

[jpcloet]

It was taken out for a variety of reasons. Including W-L-T in comparison with wars was not useful. The leagues are relevant, but haven't figured out the correct context to include them. Currently working on a 2nd system, haven't decided between Tournament/League RPI or Masterpoints system.

[waseemalim]

Regarding the argument that clan league should not carry as much weight because its too double heavy. Well I think that argument does not hold if you actually look at the numbers -- and you probably missed my previous post on it. Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=438&t=109045&start=150#p2452091

as one of sports commentators use to say "stats are like bikini. it implies a lot, but actually shows nothing"... just like in this case. lets say you play doubles against some less then average players on big map and both you and your partner get shitty rolls in first turn. then look at same situation in quads. most likely you will get out of a jam in quads just as you will get burned in doubles...

And you can use a proverb to say anything that you fancy. I am sorry but this does not add to your argument. People have claimed that doubles make the clan league results too dependent on dice, but the numbers do not hold up to that claim as the results would have been more or less the same if we did not include doubles. Also, quads were introduced to the site relatively recently, prior to that all the challenges games were mostly dubs and trips (low v monkis was 20-30-10). Therefore, while I agree that doubles add more variance, it is equally true in the case of challenges (which to their disadvantage is not too standardized).

Of course I am pissed that we are not top 3 now. Do I think we deserve to be top 3 with our current challenge record. Nope, I don't. And I mentioned this point in the post that you quoted. You guys may hold whatever views you please, but to claim that your views are somehow unbiased and superior is what I have a problem with. To discount the league as irrelevant because it does not have x number of games is a very flawed logic. The dice can tip a challenge as much as it tips the league. And that is all I have tried to argue throughout the thread.

i dont claim my opinion isnt biased. im stating something that we might call "collective mind of CC". is it wrong? well, it sure as hell isnt right, but since there is no valid formula for determine true clan strength, that biased opinion is all we have. and like it or not, blitz list does support that opinion as most of CC community thinks differently then you.

Well everyone feels that they know what the collective mind thinks. But they really don't. If you want to do a collective mind test for validity of clan challenges over clan leagues, then poll it. Same applies to the rank. Anyhow, I had a bigger problem with this when Blitz called the title "Top 5 Clans in CC"

And most importantly it should not be "marketing" that determines rank.

it shouldnt. as it shouldnt decide which beer you will take or who will win president elections, but the truth is somehow different...

While that may be true of beers and elections that doesn't have to be true of competitive games. Karpov was not ranked number 1 because the Russians "marketed" him well. The unfortunate fact remains that we have not yet determined a standardized way to choose a number 1 clan for CC, and therefore any claim to the title is just unofficial.

[khazalid]

magi-karp-karp-karp

[dyrtydog]

here is george's list in case anyone did not see it:


Top Clans on CC
By Georgerx7di (TSM)

In lieu of the up coming Conqueror’s Cup and the controversy over the ladders, I have decided to do a opinion piece on the top clans on CC and personally rank them. As I write about clan wars, I find myself spending more and more time in the “completed challenges” forum, where I have learned a good deal about our clans.

In preparing my rankings, I found that the first two spots were easy to fill based on available information. Spots 3-7 seemed to meld together at first and so I had to add more criteria to help me order them. Spots 8-10 were the hardest to fill, there were at least two or three clans that I had to leave off, who perhaps should have made it.

So here are the criteria I used to decide who the best clans on CC are:
1. Clan war record. This gives a good indication of how good a clan has been over the life of the clan.
2. Current CLA Season 2 record for the league. This is a good indicator of how good a clan is at the moment, albeit not a perfect indicator. Most of my top 10 list was derived from these two factors and from my own experiences playing these clans.
3. Who the clans won or lost to in clan challenges.
4. Input from experienced clan players. This is important because there are things that I will not have gotten around to looking at, for example people leaving or joining a clan.
5. Win percentage in clan wars. This becomes important when you have two clans who seem very equal. AOD for example lost a clan war to IA by a score of 11-9, that is a lot different then loosing 16-4 and so should not count so strongly against them. Now without further ado, here is (in my opinion) the top ten clans on CC.

Top 10 Clans on CC:

1. THOTA
THOTA has a 7-0 record in clan wars, by far the best of anyone. Three of their wins were against top ranked opponents. 32-28 over LOW, 53-47 over Imperial Dragoons and 41-19 over Generation 1. The rest are lesser known clans, but its worth noting that their victory over Death by committee was by a score of 35-5. THOTA is also the champion in the first season of the CLA League.

2. TSM
The Spanking Monkeys have a 3-0 record, all against top clans. They have defeated The Legion 25-15, Immortal Assassins 22-18 and LOW 34-26. LOW has kind of been the gateway to the top spots, if one could defeat them, then that clan would be ranked in the top 2 or 3 spots. All three of these have been traditionally considered top 10 clans, although The Legion has lost some good players very recently and will not make this top 10 list. The Spanking Monkeys are also leading division 1B in CLA Season 2 at the time of printing.

3. The Odd Fellows Union
TOFU has a 3-0 record over some very good clans. They have defeated The Imperial Dragoons 24-16 and Generation 1 25-15. Their third win came over Mythology by a margin of 30-10. I was hesitant to place TOFU so high on the list however because of the fact that they were placed in Division 2 in CLA League. However they have absolutely dominated division 2A (winning 83% of their games!), in a division that includes O&H, EE, and Divine Domination (more on DD below).

4. Immortal Assassins
The Immortal Assassins have a 3-1 record in clan wars, including defeats over AOD and BPB. Their only loss is to TSM (above). IA is also in second place in division 1A in this season’s CLA League, ahead of THOTA who is in third place and behind KORT.

5. Legends of War
Their 5 wins are pretty impressive. They won a 36-24 match over Empire (ranked 6th on this list) and a 16-8 win over The Untouchables, who would have been considered for the top 10 if the clan were still in existence. LOW also defeated G1 28-12, and crushed PE 25-5. LOW had a record of 5-2 up till recently. Their only losses had come at the hands of the top 2 clans on this list; THOTA 32-28 and TSM 34-26 and are in second place in division 1B, only a half game behind TSM. With all this they might have been 3rd or 4th out of the top 10, however they were recently defeated, and quite soundly, by O&H (see issue 24 of The CC dispatch). With this 3rd loss, many no longer consider LOW to be at the very top. However, as their defeat of Empire, and their cla performance shows, LOW is still a clan to be taken seriously and that is why they earned my number 5 spot.

6. Empire
Empire has an impressive 7-1 record including wins over The Legion, The Imperial Dragoons, Nemesis, BSS and a somewhat underrated Agents of Chaos. Empire blasted Nemesis 41-23 handing them their first loss. There are a few other blowout wins, AOC 38-22, The Worlds of the Wort 15-5, however other wins were not so impressive. Empire defeated Black Sheep Squadron 21-19 and The Legion by an even smaller margin 16-15. None the less, had it not been for their loss to LOW, Empire might be ranked in the top 3.

Empire has also not been that impressive in CLA League, they currently have a 34-35 record and are 4th place in division 1A. Not an embarrassment by any means, considering that the clan above them in 3rd place is THOTA. Divisions 1A and 1B are filled with most of the best clans on CC, however to be ranked in the top 5 a clan has to be able to shine against this top competition. Empire gets 6th place for me.

7. Knights of the Round Table
The Knights of the Round Table seemed to be an all-star team in the making. They recruited many top players and were expected to take the clan world by storm (much in the way that TOFU has). They are leading division 1A, an impressive feat, above IA, THOTA and Empire, however their clan wars have not been as impressive.

KORT has a record of 1-0-1. Their first clan war ended in a 15-15 tie against Generation 1, a 3-5-1 clan with most of its losses coming to top clans. KORT came back to win their next clan war over The Brethren of the Fat Mermaid, (see issue 23 of The CC Dispatch) with a score that is currently listed at 38-17 with 5 games still not recorded. The Brethren are a good clan, with players like BoganGod and Draq, however with an 0-3 record it is hard to gauge the value of KORT’s victory over them. For these reasons KORT gets 7th place. Cla aside, they still have not proven themselves to be top 5 quality.

8. Nemesis
After jotting down my top 7 clans, it became more difficult to decide who would get the last three spots. So I made a spreadsheet with a few columns. I put a check in one column for every clan that had a winning record in clan wars. Next I put a check next to every clan that had a winning record in CLA. One thing jumped out at me. There were only two clans who were not already on my top 10 list, who had both winning clan records and winning records in the current season of CLA. One was Nemesis, the other was Agents of Chaos (more on them below). Nemesis has a 3-1 record with wins over Mythology, Imperial Britain and Left4Dead; their only loss coming to Empire (above). They also have a 36-28 record in CLA League, good for 4th place in division 1B.

9. Angels of Death
Angels of Death (formerly LOD) has an 9-4 record. Their 9 wins are all over mid-level clans, The Brethren or Mythology perhaps being the best of the bunch. Their losses however are mostly to good clans. They were beaten handily 37-23 by The Imperial Dragoons, however their other losses were all nail biters. They lost 23-22 against G1 and 11-9 against IA! Not a bad showing. Their other loss was a 5-4 loss to Freemium Forces in a 9 game clan war which probably should not count. AOD clearly deserves a spot in the top 10 with this record. However their CLA League performance has been less than stellar, 31-33 in division 1A. For this reason, and the absence of any victories over top ranked clans, AOD gets a 9th place rank from me.

10. Imperial Dragoons
This was the toughest clan to place on this list. The Imperial Dragoons have a 3-3 record, the only clan on this list that isn't over .500. Surely I couldn’t put ID above Empire (6-1) who defeated ID. Perhaps I could have put them above AOD, who ID had defeated. ID’s losses were all to top clans, THOTA, TOFU and Empire. Their wins were over AOD, Skyforce and a 13 game win over Murder Inc. Overall not bad, and they beat AOD by a margin of 37-23. They also lost to THOTA 53-47, a pretty good showing.

However to be considered a top clan one has to win. It’s hard to put a 3-3 clan above a 9-4 clan. Also, ID has a 32-37 record in CLA division 1A, good for 5th place in that division. This tells me that perhaps ID is not as good as they have been in the past. However should they win their current challenge against IA (it's tied at 15-15), I would have to bump them up a couple of spots on the list, perhaps even above KORT.

Honorable Mentions:

BPB
The Bullet Proof Bandits have had an impressive showing in the CLA League, currently 39-25 and in 3rd place in division 1B. On the other hand, their clan war record is a pedestrian 1-1. They have a win over BSS, nothing to sneeze at, but only by a margin of 21-19. Their loss came at the hands of IA, a clan that I think very highly of. In the end two clan challenges just weren't enough to put them above AOD or ID.

O&H
The Outlaws and Highwaymen officially show a record of 2-2, however their two most recent victories have not been recorded. They will be at 4-2 when their two clan wars finish, including an impressive win over LOW (see issue 24). On the other hand their CLA League performance is a poultry 16-24 in division 2B. Another problem is their two losses. They lost to BSS (a good clan, but not in my top 10) and Divine Domination, a clan playing in their first clan war. O&H would have to be ranked around 11 or 12 at the moment for me. On the other hand, should they win their next clan war against G1 (they currently lead 5-4), this could solidify them as a top 10 contender.

AOC
I actually consulted some experts on this one. My final two spots had come down to AOD, ID, BPB, O&H, and AOC, and I was seriously considering putting Agents of Chaos in the 9 or 10 spot on the list. They have a 3-1-1 record and are leading their division in CLA League. So why didn’t they make the top 10. For one thing, their three wins all came against very low ranked clans. They had a tie against Mythology, not bad, but Mythology didn’t make the top 10 either. The only top clan that they played was Empire, and they lost that war 38-22. Finally, although they are crushing their division in CLA League (27-13), it is division 2B.

For AOC to move up to the top 10, they have to beat a top clan and/or win in division 1 CLA. So although they are a good clan, they still have not proven themselves to be at the very to of CC clan competition. A win against an AOD or Nemesis is probably what it would take to vault them up to the top 10.

Rising Star

Divine Domination
I will end with an up and coming clan to watch for in the future. Divine domination has completed 1 clan war, defeating O&H by a score of 33-27, not bad for a clan’s first challenge. Don’t forget that O&H is the clan that just defeated LOW by a good margin. DD is also in second place in division 2A, with a loosing record albeit (19-21), but every clan in that division has a losing record. TOFU is rolling 2A with an 83% win percentage. However, to be in second place behind TOFU is not a bad spot for a new clan, and they are just a few games shy of being over .500. I suspect that this will be a clan to keep an eye on.

Final comments

It’s unlikely that anyone will agree on the exact ranking of every clan. Some will place more value on players they know in the clan, or how they think the clan will perform in the future. I went with a system that weighed more on the past and more on winning and loosing clan wars because I felt that one cannot guess how a clan will do in the future. A record on the other hand is something that a clan has proven. And after all, winning clan wars is what we all strive for, not winning percentage. I personally would much rather my clan win 3 wars 21-19 then win 1 war 34-16 and loose 2 wars 19-21. So this is how I graded clans, how many wars did they win and how many they lost. As Bill Belichick, coach of the New England Patriots once said, “Stats are for losers, final scores are for winners”.



my opinion would be this and 10.0 being perfect:

1. Thota 9.7
2. Tsm 9.6
3. Tofu 9.5
4. IA 9.1
5. Empire 9.0
6. Kort 6.9
7. O+H 6.7
8. Low 6.5
9. Dragoons 6.3
10. Nemesis 6.2
11. AOD 6.1
12. BpB 6.0



I would agree george since over 21 clans voted on the conquer cup created by chuuuuck and he has the results, that is a POLL that had a massive amount that came up with ranks, and that poll was reflected in here earlier. As you can see my top 10 to 12 is slightly different then george's and both of ours is slightly different then Jp's ladder system, but, again, there is no perfect system, and this is why I changed the title to Perception of Top clans by years. It is going to be subjective regardless of what you use, but, I would think a majority of the players on CC who have played in clans have a pretty good idea that the lists on page one are fairly reasonable, and I am open to changing the ranks as I have many times already, one thing we all had in common was the rankings of the top 3 to 5 clans are striking accurate, it is when you dip lower then that is when it gets a little muddled.

Unfortunately, I disagree with George completely, leaving ++Legion++ off his list.

[Gold Knight]

magi-karp-karp-karp

To be honest, this is probably the most useful post in this thread. Seriously, everyone needs to stop with their consistent bitching about a list that everyone keeps saying is "unofficial". Take some of your own advice and quit taking this so goddamn seriously. If you want to make a difference, post these ideas in the ladder, RPI, etc, threads for the actual clan rankings. Its completely unreal to me how immature people are on this site over something as petty as posting a list based off of someone's opinion. If you really have such a big problem with this thread, than do yourself a favor and let it die so you dont have to bother with it anymore. Going to pull a C&A saying here just for this thread: Foe it and move on...

BTW, did anyone else find it so irritating to have a magikarp and have to raise it to level 20 to get a Gyrados? It took FOREVER to repeatedly sub in another Pokemon to get him the half exp points for each battle...

[khazalid]

OMG THANKYOU.

the allusion for those of another generation: "what's the point of splashing?"

and i usually had at least 2 gyarados, and yes... they were a royal pain in the ass to level up. can't argue with hydro pump / hyper beam / thunder / blizzard in one pokemon though.

GK, come over here. i wanna give you a french kiss.

[khazalid]

(if you get that reference too i'll buy your next premium)

[Gold Knight]

(if you get that reference too i'll buy your next premium)

Well, Jynx started with Lovely Kiss if thats what you're getting at... Though was basically useless without the Ice Punch or Psychic...

[khazalid]

no cigar, though you make ash ketchum look like a fookin' amateur. i salute you, sir.

[Georgerx7di]

Re: Dyrtydog. I'm buzzed, so bare with me. I definitely considered Legion for the list. They have a 7-5 record in clan wars, and at times have been listed in the top ten in ladders. However their CLA performance has been terrible. For that reason I think that Legion would probably be somewhere between 13 and 16 on my list. Something similar to where I would put BSS, G1 and AOC.

[hwhrhett]

legion ranks above dragoons for 2009?

[Blitzaholic]

LOL, nice George. For the RPI ladder, Feb 28th is a key date

please remind me.

[Blitzaholic]

Perhaps for 2010 there should be a panel of 12 clan leaders, plus Jp's system to configure the rankings of clans at years end? Meaning, we use Jp's formula and see the results, then, we use 12 others that are competent of clan activity and all rank them in order, then Jp's has his rankings by his formula, then the 12 clan leaders see those results, next, the 12 then rank there top clans in order, we all give the results to Jp, Jp then takes the average of them ranks from the 12 leaders and then applies that to his formula, and we get the final results.

Basically, I am suggesting would a panel of 12 from clan leaders help aid this more. Again, it would NOT be perfect, as nothing will be. However, if we use a formula Jp's create, then we take 12 respectable impartial clan leaders, get the average from both, add it to the final product, we at least would have some strong merits for standings. What you all think? It is kind of like combining Jp's formula coupled with Chuuuucks CUP poll.

[Dako]

I think there is no point to rate 2010 at all, even with perfect formulas.

[Blitzaholic]

why? we have the last couple years, why stop?

[Culs De Sac]

Re: Dyrtydog. I'm buzzed, so bare with me. I definitely considered Legion for the list. They have a 7-5 record in clan wars, and at times have been listed in the top ten in ladders. However their CLA performance has been terrible. For that reason I think that Legion would probably be somewhere between 13 and 16 on my list. Something similar to where I would put BSS, G1 and AOC.

Not making any excuses for our performance in CLA...But we have been going to through some serious revamps during this current season..With Members dealing with personal problems, leaving the clan or CC all together...We have been much more worried with internal matters rather than focusing our attention to the games at hand. I will agree that we have had a poor showing, but matters will change drastically in the near future events

[Bruceswar]

why? we have the last couple years, why stop?

He means it is far too early even with a "perfect" system in place to tell anything about 2010

[Blitzaholic]

why? we have the last couple years, why stop?

He means it is far too early even with a "perfect" system in place to tell anything about 2010

This is why on page 1, the year 2010 was deleted.

[Blitzaholic]

legion ranks above dragoons for 2009?

this came from here hwh:

Clan Ladder: Oct-Nov 2009