Letter to the Clans of CC

[eddie2]

With the merger of AOC and Empire, will they be allowed in, even though they do not meet the requirements?

If they are allowed in, where will they be seeded?

Just like Atlantis They will be seeded at the back. Both will be allowed in and will be randomized.

well this sucks dont it... once again showing you don't really know what you are doing....

there is really 2 options here

1)merger with empire and aoc they merge into one of them 2 clans and change the name which then leaves them in the position they were in.

2)they start a new clan which then makes them not eligible for this event..

like what happened with time i was given the option of taking over the time clan and name change or start new clan making us not eligable for this event...

this just once again proves you are giving more options for higher ranked clans over what has been given to lower ranked ones previously in this event.. At the end of it they have just merged what if it dont work out and they split again in 3 or 4 months that will cause chaos..

same with atlantis who are a break away from bofm who i dont think have completed a challenge yet should be treated the same as the pack and they were only 6 games away from meeting the sign up requirements of completing 2 challenges to join but were not allowed.... i do not mean any offense to the 2 clans but guidelines have been set previously in how they handle this kind of thing and should be followed.

[jetsetwilly]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

[eddie2]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

fair play for this jetset.. but since you and leehar are both clan mods and have decided to start a new clan you should then be setting a example to others and not take part or try get a really quick war in with someone to qualify, but with the sign up date as short as it is that might be impossible... or come join us in the newcomers cup

[cooldeals]

That doesn't make much sense to me tbh. If an already strong clan absorbs a whole bunch of players from another strong clan they get seeded bottom?

The Empire/AoC results could be amalgamated on the F400 to find their position, or simply leave the higher of the two clans exactly where they currently stand on the ladder.

If a Fortune 500 company acquires a new business it doesn't fall out of the Top 500. Same deal here isn't it?

Has this been thought through carefully?

Hey, speaking as me here, ignore my colours !

We really hoped we could find a way to do just that. Ice was pondering whether he could combine the two set of stats as one on the F400 but he said he had spoken to a few people who felt that was inappropriate.

What we did not want to do is literally have one clan absorb the other as it would feel like a take over. I don't know that icepack has made his mind up yet, he did suggest we open a debate if we disagreed.

It's a little tricky as Leehar and I are both CD's and we are not seeking any favouritism here and don't want to push it.

Why is this so complicated? The drama in here makes me laugh.

I think Bruce and eddie are both right on this one. If they want to be NEW they should be "randomized". If they want a high seeding then they can bite the bullet have Empire members join AOC (higher F400 ranking so higher seed), rename the clan, clean out the clan forum and realize it's a merger not a takeover. They are both literally the same thing so I guess the Empire of Chaos needs to choose which path they would like randomization or seeding.

The only thing that does not make sense is "combining" their records in the F400 and giving them a seed. Isn't one of AOC's best wins over Empire?

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[Chewie1]

Back to the point



Since the CD and friends usergroup was started a few months ago there has been some open and fair discussions with plenty of thread voting, which in the main has been fairly amicable and decisions made upon the results of the voting system.


The vote for this CC4 has been the first real contencious one, unfortunately it has proved what a waste of time the CD and friends usergroup has been.

I have lost count of the PMs I've recieved saying " please vote on this"

After this debacle who is going to vote on anything again as it is now CRYSTAL CLEAR that if the desired result isn't achieved in the voting process then it can and WILL be overuled?

[Chariot of Fire]

Has any statement been made from a rep of either clan in respect of what their intention is? Is Empire winding-up, their members going to AOC and then AOC undergoing a name change? If so then AOC should retain its place at #3 on the F400 (logical right, as they've acquired a whole slew of new players). Just ending their records when they plan to remain competitive doesn't seem right. Are we going to end up with a ludicrous situation where the newly-merged clan is ranked so low that they would have to be beaten by a win a rate of 90% for the victor not to lose points and slip down the table?

[jetsetwilly]

Has any statement been made from a rep of either clan in respect of what their intention is? Is Empire winding-up, their members going to AOC and then AOC undergoing a name change? If so then AOC should retain its place at #3 on the F400 (logical right, as they've acquired a whole slew of new players). Just ending their records when they plan to remain competitive doesn't seem right. Are we going to end up with a ludicrous situation where the newly-merged clan is ranked so low that they would have to be beaten by a win a rate of 90% for the victor not to lose points and slip down the table?

We considered all the options available to us at great length. I won't get into the details but we elected to go with creating a new clan under the new name.

[Chewie1]

Has any statement been made from a rep of either clan in respect of what their intention is? Is Empire winding-up, their members going to AOC and then AOC undergoing a name change? If so then AOC should retain its place at #3 on the F400 (logical right, as they've acquired a whole slew of new players). Just ending their records when they plan to remain competitive doesn't seem right. Are we going to end up with a ludicrous situation where the newly-merged clan is ranked so low that they would have to be beaten by a win a rate of 90% for the victor not to lose points and slip down the table?

Do we actually care???

This isnt about Top clans merging this is about the structure of the CC4

Stay on topic pls.

[crispybits]

Back to the point



Since the CD and friends usergroup was started a few months ago there has been some open and fair discussions with plenty of thread voting, which in the main has been fairly amicable and decisions made upon the results of the voting system.


The vote for this CC4 has been the first real contencious one, unfortunately it has proved what a waste of time the CD and friends usergroup has been.

I have lost count of the PMs I've recieved saying " please vote on this"

After this debacle who is going to vote on anything again as it is now CRYSTAL CLEAR that if the desired result isn't achieved in the voting process then it can and WILL be overuled?

Indeed - I don't think it's lost on a lot of people that the option that the largest number of clans voted for in round 1, and even switching the 2 contentious votes the largest number of votes were in for in the vote 2 in progress, has been discarded in favour of the option that favours the minority (but strangely the majority of the CDs clans before that merger) and does nothing to consider the criticisms of the original format in the first place.

[josko.ri]

I have lost count of the PMs I've recieved saying " please vote on this"

Maybe the main reason why CDs overruled the voting. Instead allowing representatives to honest decide by their own opinion, there were a lot of manipulation going in backstage, sending massive pms and organizing campaigns, all in order that lower clans dictate to top clans how we will everyone do, in the only tournament where top clans participate. Just for record, there are 3 Cup tournaments where lower clans participate (CCup, NC, ACC) so this one, which is the only where also top clans participate, should be made according to set up preferred by top clans.
Also, even if I proposed option 3.b, I have sent zero pms and asked zero players to vote for my proposal. That is democracy, everyone to have options and decide by their own opinion what they fit the best. So I am the rare one who played this very democratic, and I am glad 8 clans realized it and awarded their vote for qwert's and mine proposal.Sending massive pms is not demcoracy, it is politics. It is asking to vote for something not because players think it is the best (in that case why pms is needed?) but rather because of friendships/alliances with someone else. That is not democracy, that is politics. We do not need politics to decide about anything here.

Also to freakns, you are the first who did not do democracy in its own point, so saying by you why democracy was not followed is pretty hypocratical. If I remember you voted for no voting. So your choice was not having competition at all? If yes, you can always decide not to sign up so for your clan will be no competition at all, just like for what you voted.

[eddie2]

Has any statement been made from a rep of either clan in respect of what their intention is? Is Empire winding-up, their members going to AOC and then AOC undergoing a name change? If so then AOC should retain its place at #3 on the F400 (logical right, as they've acquired a whole slew of new players). Just ending their records when they plan to remain competitive doesn't seem right. Are we going to end up with a ludicrous situation where the newly-merged clan is ranked so low that they would have to be beaten by a win a rate of 90% for the victor not to lose points and slip down the table?

We considered all the options available to us at great length. I won't get into the details but we elected to go with creating a new clan under the new name.

well in effect you have ruled yourself out of this event then...

to take part in this event you must be a member of cdf. to be a member of cdf you must of completed 1 clan war...

chewie this does have something to do with this event because bruce is saying put them in the randomized side of the event, When they have decided to be a new clan and all previous clans that have done this kind of thing have not been allowed to take part...So if bruce allows them into this event then he is showing preference again to top ranked clans

[crispybits]

*sigh* cheerleading for a preferred option is not a corruption of a democratic process. Sending a PM saying "I'm voting for X, and these are the reasons I think you should too" is not corrupting a democratic process. Otherwise why is every election in the world accompanied by house to house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts? The line comes when people send PMs saying "vote for the one we don't want and then we'll not enter it and do our own thing anyway", because that undermines the democratic process. I have no cast iron proof of this, but the posts made by various people, and indeed in the letter in the OP, states the CDs believe there is evidence of this. Acting to prevent this is one of the few correct things they have done imo.

[josko.ri]

*sigh* cheerleading for a preferred option is not a corruption of a democratic process. Sending a PM saying "I'm voting for X, and these are the reasons I think you should too" is not corrupting a democratic process. Otherwise why is every election in the world accompanied by house to house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts?

Great that you concluded this, house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts are just the way to manipulate with people's mind and to force them to believe that your option is the best.

Imagine if there is no house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts, wouldn't then democracy be on MUCH higher level? Everyone has candidates, everyone has chance to read or see what candidates propose (in paper written plans), and without any bullying or massive campaigns from television everyone free decide who they like the most? THAT would be democracy, it is pity that nowhere exist. THIS is not democracy, this is politics. You see, you are the one who compared what was happened here with what is happening in politics campaigns, so that is a reason more confirming my arguments that many people voted by being manipulated rather than having freedom to construct their own opinion.

Reason more to prove this is that practically nobody suggested random draw in old Dako's thread and then suddenly 75% clans (or what was exact number) vote for random draw. How do you explain that fact except with huge vote manipulation done in backstage?

[cooldeals]

*sigh* cheerleading for a preferred option is not a corruption of a democratic process. Sending a PM saying "I'm voting for X, and these are the reasons I think you should too" is not corrupting a democratic process. Otherwise why is every election in the world accompanied by house to house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts?

Great that you concluded this, house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts are just the way to manipulate with people's mind and to force them to believe that your option is the best.

Imagine if there is no house visits, leaflet drops and TV broadcasts, wouldn't then democracy be on MUCH higher level? Everyone has candidates, everyone has chance to read or see what candidates propose (in paper written plans), and without any bullying or massive campaigns from television everyone free decide who they like the most? THAT would be democracy, it is pity that nowhere exist. THIS is not democracy, this is politics. You see, you are the one who compared what was happened here with what is happening in politics campaigns, so that is a reason more confirming my arguments that many people voted by being manipulated rather than having freedom to construct their own opinion.

Glad to see that this thread has now gone to the point of people saying the members of CDF are easily manipulated pawns. Self Serving? Maybe. But incapable of making their own decision? I give the clan reps more credit than that.

What did everyone expect people to do. Not vote for the format that favors their clan?

This is just sad. Wasn't this a very successful event in the past? Why so many problems this year?

[crispybits]

All the cheerleading PMs do is move the same arguments from the discussion threads into people's inboxes. Some people don't read the forum all that regularly (including some CDF reps judging by post counts), so there is no harm done. yes it's politic, but guess what democracy is a political system. It's impossible to have democracy without politics. Nothing in the PMs I saw could not have been posted in the main discussion thread, nothing in there would have raised any eyebrows at all. I delete PMs after I read/reply to them so I don't have access to what was sent, but I'm sure keefie or someone else who got them could re-post them here.

If there were deals brewing to vote against a preferred option in order to give an excuse to set up a breakaway competition as has been suggested in this OP and several other posts, then this is when it becomes dishonest. The intention of the vote was to find a format that kept the most people as possible happy with. For people to vote for an option they oppose in order to break away, then this is a fundamentally different thing to people voting for what they actually want. Imagine Obama made a deal with a load of Democrat senators in swing states to make sure the vote went Republican so that the hardcore Democrat states could seccede and form a new country. Do you see how that's different to Obama telling everyone to vote Democrat because that's what he really believes?

But then, the intention of the discussion thread was for everyone to honestly address the options and to come up with compromises which addressed the actual criticisms of the alternative systems, and many seem to have ignored that too, including the CDs, so I'm not exactly surprised.

[chapcrap]

So, Atlantis can be in too now?

Does that mean that clans do not have to qualify for CDF or that CDF does not require wars anymore? Just curious which rules have changed.

[josko.ri]

This is just sad. Wasn't this a very successful event in the past? Why so many problems this year?

Lol, THAT what you said is why so many problems this year. It was successful event, so then appeared that voting showed we want TOTALLY opposite system than it was the one which was successful. Another paradox here, one paradox is that option that nobody was cheering for in discussion thread got the most votes. Another paradox is this, why would someone wish to TOTALLY change system of something which worked very well? Random draw is total change of seeding system, and draw which will be used is just a little randomized. If previous non-randomized version worked great, it means we do not need to totally change it, maybe just a little to help the lowest ranked clans not get #1 seed in round 1.

All the cheerleading PMs do is move the same arguments from the discussion threads into people's inboxes. Some people don't read the forum all that regularly (including some CDF reps judging by post counts), so there is no harm done. yes it's politic, but guess what democracy is a political system. It's impossible to have democracy without politics. Nothing in the PMs I saw could not have been posted in the main discussion thread, nothing in there would have raised any eyebrows at all. I delete PMs after I read/reply to them so I don't have access to what was sent, but I'm sure keefie or someone else who got them could re-post them here.

As I said, if something is democracy then no need to harras people's inboxes. Whatever was written in this inboxes (maybe reasons why to vote for that option) could be done together with option in proposal for voting. BUT, in that case every proposal would have the same treatment. In this case, proposals which went to inboxes got unfair advantage over option 3, which did not go to any inbox of any player. It is possible toi have democracy without politics, that is what I was trying to do and suggest from very beginning. My suggestion was to allow players who made proposals to write description about why someone should vote for their proposal, and that description be added in spoiler together with format. I also wrote my description and sent it to CDs requesting to add it together with my format in voting thread, I do not know if they did it or not. THAT is democracy, if anyone want to add something and explain why to vote for his option, he can do it in voting thread. If it is done in inboxes, then it is not democracy, it is then politics, because some options were bullied users to in inboxes vote for their option while others believed that no backstage agreements will be done.

[crispybits]

There was no bullying, I don't know where you got that idea from. If I sent you a PM during the voting saying "Hey I really like option 2 because of X, Y and Z and I hope you vote for it" is that bullying?

A backroom agreement is someone saying "lets all vote for X because we want Y". A message that says "lets all vote for X because we want X" is not a backroom deal, it's just honest expression of opinion, and it doesn't force anything on anyone.

Like I said, can you not see the difference between contesting an election by any fair means (including using any platform you like to express support for your favoured position), and deliberately throwing an election so that you can do something completely different in spite of the result?

[josko.ri]

There was no bullying, I don't know where you got that idea from. If I sent you a PM during the voting saying "Hey I really like option 2 because of X, Y and Z and I hope you vote for it" is that bullying?

A backroom agreement is someone saying "lets all vote for X because we want Y". A message that says "lets all vote for X because we want X" is not a backroom deal, it's just honest expression of opinion, and it doesn't force anything on anyone.

Like I said, can you not see the difference between contesting an election by any fair means (including using any platform you like to express support for your favoured position), and deliberately throwing an election so that you can do something completely different in spite of the result?

With sending pms, agreement can be done like this:

"Hey guys, there are 43 clans, I am trying to collect 22 clans so all others will be forced to do what we will say. We will be so powerful because we have majority and those arrogant elitists who has just one tournament they participate will need to ask us what they will do in that one tournament. We have another 2 tournaments that we participate in, but hold on we have 22/43 members together so they will need to ask us and every time do how we say. I have one option in mind, I give it nickname "option shit". Be my friends, group with me and let's all vote for "option shit" no matter what is proposed under that option and force all those so called elitists to dance how we sing. We have 2 tournaments for ourselves, let's take power in ruling over third one as well and show to those bastards that spent a month discussing format who has a real power. Let them discuss, it will anyway be how we say because we are mighty 22/43 group. All for "option shit" please, and we have the power to do what we want."

[patrickaa317]

we elected to go with creating a new clan under the new name.

That appears to be the answer to all the discussion/questions going on here on how to handle. Empire & AOC = closed blocks. Newly formed clan goes to bottom of F400.

[crispybits]

Now you're just making up stuff that didn't actually happen.

None of the messages were trying to take control of anything. They were saying that we have an opportunity here to make the format of this official competition fairer, and that the sender hoped we would all agree with him that option 2 was the fairest one. You're constructing some sort of mega-conspiracy where none exists. I really hope keefie or someone has still got that PM chain and can send it over to you because then you will see just how far from the actual truth you are.

Without you reading those PMs though there will be nothing I can do to convince you. I will say that you could have done the same and nobody would have objected, as could anyone is support of option 1. I will also add that when I replied to the PMs if I remember right I was supporting moving towards a compromise agreement rather than full random, so it wasn't some unified club with one big idea that everyone was forced to follow blindly. We are all accountable to our clans and the views they express, not some masonic secret handshake society within the CDF membership.

[BGtheBrain]

*****

[freakns]

I have lost count of the PMs I've recieved saying " please vote on this"

Maybe the main reason why CDs overruled the voting. Instead allowing representatives to honest decide by their own opinion, there were a lot of manipulation going in backstage, sending massive pms and organizing campaigns, all in order that lower clans dictate to top clans how we will everyone do, in the only tournament where top clans participate. Just for record, there are 3 Cup tournaments where lower clans participate (CCup, NC, ACC) so this one, which is the only where also top clans participate, should be made according to set up preferred by top clans.
Also, even if I proposed option 3.b, I have sent zero pms and asked zero players to vote for my proposal. That is democracy, everyone to have options and decide by their own opinion what they fit the best. So I am the rare one who played this very democratic, and I am glad 8 clans realized it and awarded their vote for qwert's and mine proposal.Sending massive pms is not demcoracy, it is politics. It is asking to vote for something not because players think it is the best (in that case why pms is needed?) but rather because of friendships/alliances with someone else. That is not democracy, that is politics. We do not need politics to decide about anything here.

Also to freakns, you are the first who did not do democracy in its own point, so saying by you why democracy was not followed is pretty hypocratical. If I remember you voted for no voting. So your choice was not having competition at all? If yes, you can always decide not to sign up so for your clan will be no competition at all, just like for what you voted.

first of all, why are you so locked about this when you are leaving CC after CCup3 is finished? at least thats what you said you would do.
secondly, my clan and i have voted every single time for every question thats been raised. so im not sure where did you got the idea i wasnt voting? i know your knowledge of english is limited, but i didnt knew your logic is failing you too... i can only guess you are preparing for CD role and first step in process is abandoning logic. and second is talking nonsense as you have done here too. am i correct?
as for me not doing democracy(what ever you meant with it), how did you come up with that one? is saying what you think antidemocratic? if it is, then you are correct, i am hypocritical.
also, how is no voting=no competition? i thought no voting means no voting... silly me. must be that english is making problems for me to.
btw, one of those 8 clans that realized your idea is good(i just cant believe how everyone thinks its their idea thats great, and others sucks ass) and who actually preached for it was clan Otpisani. i was the solo supporter for that idea among the clans that had something to say and first clan who actually voted for your idea. the only other clans who initially was for your idea was qwert clan, Mythology and IA. rest was Genoke changing his vote, and then all CDs voted 3 when they saw everything is going to hell...
so somehow, i have dome democratic thing by voting for you, and i did not do democracy because you say so? as usual, you make no sense.
my only problem with voting came after they changed initial voting process and options. now, please, tell me, is changing voting system during voting is democratic? i refuse to put my vote under those conditions. and i refused to participate in any debate on CDF anymore because CD have bluntly offended clan representative because he didnt like what clan representative has to say. im guessing saying "it is i who is important here, and i dont care what you think, so stop posting here" is also democratic and by not supporting behavior like this i am anti democrat?

get your facts str8 before posting next time.

[josko.ri]

secondly, my clan and i have voted every single time for every question thats been raised. so im not sure where did you got the idea i wasnt voting? i know your knowledge of english is limited, but i didnt knew your logic is failing you too... i

Here:
viewtopic.php?f=443&t=187980&p=4120083#p4120083

also, i will not vote again on any issue. not me, not any other member of Otpisani.

As you showed to be liar at the very beginning of your post, I did not bother even to read rest of your post. I do not speak with liars.