Perception of Top 10 Clans [Annually + Longevity]

[Leehar]

What I'm most curious about is why low is beneath ia(among others) in both rankings (18 month and 12 month), while having defeated ia in the cup, and after winning s2 of the league?
If league is so heavily a component of the rankings, why hasn't either s1 or s2 champions ever been top in the rpi?

[Incandenza]

What I'm most curious about is why low is beneath ia(among others) in both rankings (18 month and 12 month), while having defeated ia in the cup, and after winning s2 of the league?
If league is so heavily a component of the rankings, why hasn't either s1 or s2 champions ever been top in the rpi?

I've asked this very same question numerous times. Maybe this time we'll get an answer.

[jpcloet]

I've already answered this. LOW got beat by O&H badly in early 2010. A number of the so called elites had bumps along the 2010 road.

[Incandenza]

I've already answered this. LOW got beat by O&H badly in early 2010. A number of the so called elites had bumps along the 2010 road.

You know, I could make a pretty strong argument for why that doesn't make sense in the context of either of the ladders you posted. In fact, I could make a number of arguments about a variety of slottings (seriously, your "just 2010" ladder looks like you picked clans out of a hat). But what would be the point? I'd just be wasting my time, and then two months from now you'd post another half-baked ladder with a multitude of glaring flaws and we'd go through this whole process again.

May I make a suggestion? Whatever formula you've been using, print it out, take it out into the street, and light it on fire, because it'll be more useful as ash then it ever was as a ladder formula.

[jpcloet]

Virtually the same as the BCS used for college football. If you don't like the ladder, nor any other variation, you are free to ignore them. Maybe you would be willing to support a leap frog system then?

[Blitzaholic]

Also, this is just 2010 year, no previous data and some famous 10-0 stats. Just pure 2010 and the clan activity level.

I'm just imagining the joy on jp's face once he realized that he had a chance to post a ladder with THOTA at #11. Thanks agane jp.

Actually, I think it's not really fair to just look at 2010 results. This obviously worked out well numerically for KORT (ahem), because we played and beat #s 3 and 8? according to the seeding rankings for the cup - numbers which turned out to be relatively similar to the power rankings. THOTA's participation in the cup meant that as the #1 seed, they were required to play #s 16 and then Legion (I don't remember their number).

So using KORT and THOTA as examples here, KORT was ranked lower and successfully battled stronger opposition (according to the ranking numbers), and THOTA was ranked number 1, and played lesser opposition (again, according to the numbers). So KORT obviously got a huge bump here as we did well in the league were successful in our more difficult matches.

I suppose this is a problem in general with using the CC Cup matches as challenge results (high ranked clans are required to use their challenge capacity to play much lower ranked clans, and even winning these matches won't yield impressive ladder results), though it never really occurred to me before now.

Excellent point Foxglove. Jps is using a cup and league which hinders the top clans, even if they win, due to them being ranked or voted as lesser clans.

This is the main reason why clan cups and clan seasons should be separated from clan ladder. We had no choice, but to play clan 16, as that was the way of the voting, we were forced to play the cup tourney like format, we beat 16, then 8, now face LoW, who is giving us a strong challenge. The only 2010 challenge we faced that we negotiated terms to was with TSM and it was 80 games, we were # 1 at that time and TSM was #2 and we won, so therefore, we remain #1. 2010 has been good for Thota, in our only clan challenge where there was no forced tourney like formats, we beat the 2nd BEST clan on the CC site in an 80 game challenge.

[White Moose]

All kinds of formulas to rank teams/clans/whatever will have flaws.

I think the what JP has used so far is very successful. To be the best, you have to continue beating good opponents.

For me it all makes sense at least.

Jps is using a cup and league which hinders the top clans, even if they win, due to them being ranked or voted as lesser clans.

It doesn't really hinder them. It just makes the win value less then if they would win against a better clan. There is always the possibility to play games outside of the cup/clan league to make yourself look better on JPs ranking.

[jpcloet]

Separating them is not too hard, one of the challenges is that some clans are not in the league while others have very few challenges. Not sure how to conditionally weight.

[Blitzaholic]

Separating them is not too hard, one of the challenges is that some clans are not in the league while others have very few challenges. Not sure how to conditionally weight.

I think this would be good JP, have 2 different ladders, 1 for ALL clan challenges that negotiate terms and count ALL years, not just last 2 years. The second different ladder would be for cup-leagues merged. This could be like BOXING, there is different belts and titles and can give other clans more options to shoot for, it would be good for CC and clans.

so for example, clan challenges, Thota would be # 1.

For clan leagues, Thota was season 1 winners, LoW was season 2 winners, Low had a little better record in season 1 than we had in 2 I think, so therefore in clan league, LoW could argueably be # 1 and Thota 2.

For clan CUP, that is yet undetermined. You could make a 3rd ladder or even merge it win clan league.


However, you have to count all clan seasons, not just one, you have to count all clan challenges, not just the year 2010. My 2 cents.

In the cup or league both, you would count every clan as equal value, what is important is who wins it. You would not say for example for season 3 thota is ranked 15th now due to not so good season 2, that manipulates the numbers and would favor us big time, so start all clans as equal in value of worth. Clan challenges, well that could be weighed a little differently and separate.

clan leagues and clan cups would all get 1 point for every series they won, they would get 2 points for making the final 4, and they would get 5 points for making the final 2 clans, and that clan would get 10 points for winning it all. Something like that. KEEP IT SIMPLE.

[Foxglove]

For clan leagues, Thota was season 1 winners, LoW was season 2 winners, Low had a little better record in season 1 than we had in 2 I think, so therefore in clan league, LoW could argueably be # 1 and Thota 2.

haha... I don't think that season one #1 and season two #5-6ish? average out to make THOTA #2 on a clan league ladder. But who knows for sure, I suppose!

The problem really is that we won't have enough data if we separate ladders and rankings by event type. If we keep the league results and cup results separate from the typical challenge results, who will play enough matches in each category to generate relevant data points? All the clans in the semis of the cup right now have played 3 challenges thus far. Speaking for myself, I personally love the cup format, but I know that KORT doesn't have the extra capacity to simultaneously participate in typical challenges outside of the cup. So if we separate the ladders, we will still get inaccurate results if we have many clans sitting out events for the various ladder types.

[Blitzaholic]

For clan leagues, Thota was season 1 winners, LoW was season 2 winners, Low had a little better record in season 1 than we had in 2 I think, so therefore in clan league, LoW could argueably be # 1 and Thota 2.

haha... I don't think that season one #1 and season two #5-6ish? average out to make THOTA #2 on a clan league ladder. But who knows for sure, I suppose!

sure it does! you needed to keep reading and look at the point system, if there were 2 clan seasons and we were champs in one of them, that would make us at least 2 if there were a separate ladder as far as points totaled, and the cup has not been decided in this equation.

[Bruceswar]

For clan leagues, Thota was season 1 winners, LoW was season 2 winners, Low had a little better record in season 1 than we had in 2 I think, so therefore in clan league, LoW could argueably be # 1 and Thota 2.

haha... I don't think that season one #1 and season two #5-6ish? average out to make THOTA #2 on a clan league ladder. But who knows for sure, I suppose!

sure it does! you needed to keep reading and look at the point system, if there were 2 clan seasons and we were champs in one of them, that would make us at least 2 if there were a separate ladder as far as points totaled, and the cup has not been decided in this equation.

Just because you won season 1 does not make you auto number 2. Actually TSM who placed 3rd and 5th might have a better argument. TSM was 1 game out of the playoffs. THOTA? 12? It stands to reason TSM was more evened out than THOTA.

[xxtig12683xx]

It really does not matter what formula your going to use, no one is going to be happy. All of the elite clans think they are the best Just keep playing clan wars, and clan events, enjoy the clan your in and have fun....ffs.


-tig

[lokisgal]

League is actually more representative of a clans skill than a single war. You play more clans and have to be ready for what ever comes your way .The league cup and wars should all be included in the same ladder. How you chose to work up or down the ladder should be up to the individual clan

[Big Whiskey]

It neither makes me happy or sad. It makes me sad to see great potential clans like Proj Fire continue to fail. 2010 has not been a great year for THOTA but is still solid. Did you not see the 18 month one?

viewtopic.php?f=438&t=109045&start=600#p2762714

I don't think I have commented on any of your ladders jp but to say 2010 has not been a great year for THOTA?We defeated 2 of the top 10 clans from your own ladder this year.

viewtopic.php?f=441&t=112224

I have read a lot about THOTA being on the downfall or having a bump in the road just because we didn't win the clan season 2?Give me break.No other clan has accomplished what we have year after year.I know some were not here when we 1st started out but the clans we have defeated from then to now speaks for itself.Why not make a ladder that includes everything?

Also, this is just 2010 year, no previous data and some famous 10-0 stats. Just pure 2010 and the clan activity level.

If u are speaking about THOTA Dako,that is something I take much pride in.

League is actually more representative of a clans skill than a single war. You play more clans and have to be ready for what ever comes your way .The league cup and wars should all be included in the same ladder. How you chose to work up or down the ladder should be up to the individual clan

That is only your opinion lokisgal.It has been talked about for awhile now.

[lokisgal]

Im not entitled to an opinion? Isnt that what this is all about?

[Big Whiskey]

Im not entitled to an opinion?

Of course you are.

[Master Fenrir]

I love each and every one of JP's rankings for the simple fact that it's hilarious to watch everybody lose their frosty.

JP =

[Incandenza]

I love each and every one of JP's rankings for the simple fact that it's hilarious to watch everybody lose their frosty.

JP =

How dare you! Jp isn't fit to pick up Kefka's dry cleaning!

[chemefreak]

I'm fucking tired of reading this shit! I thought this thread was all about the "thought" of top clans from year to year...as seen and discussed by Blitzy and others. Then jp "hijacks" it with some retarded 2010 "reliability, blah, blah, and blah." Seriously? Not the place for a ranking "system" discussion.

This thread is fun because Blitz is one of the most prominent members of the best clan (all-star team) on CC. I have said this over and over again (and no, I don't want to be in THOTA, I love my clan), THOTA is the best clan on CC until they are beaten. TOFU, TSM, and KORT are all fantastic all-star teams too. But until they beat THOTA, any poll or calculation putting them anywhere lower than 1st is a joke...let alone 11th...hell, I probably would have been too ashamed to even post that system.

Yes, I am also upset about my clan's placement...we are having a nice year with our only loss to CC's newest all-star team, TOFU...which was respectable and well fought. However, having THOTA at 11th is simply the most asinine thing I have ever seen! Perhaps a leapfrog system would put this all to rest? Maybe.

[xxtig12683xx]

I'm fucking tired of reading this shit! I thought this thread was all about the "thought" of top clans from year to year...as seen and discussed by Blitzy and others. Then jp "hijacks" it with some retarded 2010 "reliability, blah, blah, and blah." Seriously? Not the place for a ranking "system" discussion.

This thread is fun because Blitz is one of the most prominent members of the best clan (all-star team) on CC. I have said this over and over again (and no, I don't want to be in THOTA, I love my clan), THOTA is the best clan on CC until they are beaten. TOFU, TSM, and KORT are all fantastic all-star teams too. But until they beat THOTA, any poll or calculation putting them anywhere lower than 1st is a joke...let alone 11th...hell, I probably would have been too ashamed to even post that system.

Yes, I am also upset about my clan's placement...we are having a nice year with our only loss to CC's newest all-star team, TOFU...which was respectable and well fought. However, having THOTA at 11th is simply the most asinine thing I have ever seen! Perhaps a leapfrog system would put this all to rest? Maybe.

You sound like a groupie

Its AMAZING to see people get so worked up, over something that is so meaningless.


-tig

[lokisgal]

haha well said tig

whats really funny is when people only whine when they lose certain things but when they win them they are all for it

now where are my boots

[chemefreak]

Its AMAZING to see people get so worked up, over something that is so meaningless.


-tig

Who thinks it's meaningless? I mean, no one should go out and kill themselves over rankings or anything, but it is okay to care about how your group is doing. I can assure you that there are people in your clan that do care.

Also, I think jp posts these different ranking formulas with a twinkle in his eye and a smirk I bet finding a formula that put THOTA at 11th is his favorite one yet! Does anyone pay attention to the formulas? Like RPI?

RPI = (Your Win % * 0.25) + (Your Opponents' Win % * 0.50) + (Your Opponents' Opponents' Win % * 0.25)

So your clan faces a new clan...you can see there isn't much upside. If that clan lasts forever and dominates....great. If not, you are stuck with a bit of a problem. The RPI "works" for say college basketball due to the amount of games played by all the teams.

[Chariot of Fire]

My thoughts, in brief:

CLA - very good league, but more important than results of challenges? No way. CLA = 8 games per set (too few) of which 50% comprise doubles (a lot of luck with drop & start). I love the CLA, but it doesn't hold a candle to Lindax's TLO which has only tourney status.

Ladders - a ladder is neither the same as a league nor a list. If one is to operate a ladder system then it should be done by either leapfrogging or handicap, simple as that.

Rankings - JP only put up what would be a ranking baed on 2010 results. I don't think anywhere he said "These are the best clans from 1 to 32". I still stand by my previous assertions that THOTA remains No.1 and it's up to the other 'wannabes' to jockey for position to earn the right to challenge.

Seedings - totally different from rankings. Seedings are where you would rank a clan according to current ability in whatever tourney the seedings are being asked for (e.g Conq Cup). There are some clans without a history (TOFU) or some who have turned things around (LoW) who would probably deserve a higher seeding than they do ranking on any list.

So you see....we would all love to look at a table and say "Hey, that's spot on" because the 'order of merit' (now there's a good chart) is exactly how you perceive it. Unfortunately this doesn't work, as our perceptions all differ. I was privy to all the rankings submitted to Chuuuuck for his new listing, and you'd be surprised at the number of discrepancies. This immediately told me that no matter what final chart one draws up, there will always be some who say "Hey...that isn't right after all".

Just the conversations in this thread affirm that fact, and until we all decide upon what constitutes a league, a ladder, a table, a ranking, seedings etc, we'll be banging our heads against the wall 'til kingdom come.

I still think (as I mooted once before) a handicap system is the best and fairest way to sort the whole thing out. It works beautifully in golf, and a lesser light can beat a big noise, but with a higher handicap they still wouldn't have any bragging rights.

As far as I'm concerned THOTA have earned a very low handicap - the way a seasoned golfer would with years of practice - but it wouldn't make them infallible to losing a competition as they wuld have to play to that handicap.

If people think this sounds like a reasonable system then I'm prepared to spend time on it and elaborate more.

Cheers

[xxtig12683xx]

Its AMAZING to see people get so worked up, over something that is so meaningless.


-tig

Who thinks it's meaningless? I mean, no one should go out and kill themselves over rankings or anything, but it is okay to care about how your group is doing. I can assure you that there are people in your clan that do care.

Also, I think jp posts these different ranking formulas with a twinkle in his eye and a smirk I bet finding a formula that put THOTA at 11th is his favorite one yet! Does anyone pay attention to the formulas? Like RPI?

RPI = (Your Win % * 0.25) + (Your Opponents' Win % * 0.50) + (Your Opponents' Opponents' Win % * 0.25)

So your clan faces a new clan...you can see there isn't much upside. If that clan lasts forever and dominates....great. If not, you are stuck with a bit of a problem. The RPI "works" for say college basketball due to the amount of games played by all the teams.

Contrary to your thoughts, I'm pretty sure JP does not give a rats ass where THOTA falls in anyone of his rankings. And your reactions and some of the others in this thread, lead me to believe that you may just go out an kill yourself if a different ranking system is not presented soon. I mean there is no doubt THOTA is a great clan, pretty much the standard of how you want to build your clan, and are prolly not outside the top 3 if not number 1 all together, but its all subjective and opinion and no one is ever going to be happy. But I sure laughed when I saw them at 11, Blitz prolly blew a gasket.


-tig