Perception of Top 10 Clans [Annually + Longevity]

[Lubawski]

Well, this is going to be tough. A pity TOFU were not to play THOTA this year.

You could have been if you had complained about coverage abuse. Or if others were rational rather than emotionally based decision makers.

[Blitzaholic]

Well, this is going to be tough. A pity TOFU were not to play THOTA this year.

You could have been if you had complained about coverage abuse. Or if others were rational rather than emotionally based decision makers.

hopefully Tofu plays TSM soon, then if Tofu wins, Thota could challenge your clan to 80 game series sometime in 2011, just a thought.

[ljex]

Well, this is going to be tough. A pity TOFU were not to play THOTA this year.

You could have been if you had complained about coverage abuse. Or if others were rational rather than emotionally based decision makers.

hopefully Tofu plays TSM soon, then if Tofu wins, Thota could challenge your clan to 80 game series sometime in 2011, just a thought.

TOFU basically beat KORT so i don't see how they need to play TSM before facing you. In fact if not for COF joining 1 extra game, they would be playing you right now (provided the last game COF decided to join was not the difference maker).

[Blitzaholic]

Well, this is going to be tough. A pity TOFU were not to play THOTA this year.

You could have been if you had complained about coverage abuse. Or if others were rational rather than emotionally based decision makers.

hopefully Tofu plays TSM soon, then if Tofu wins, Thota could challenge your clan to 80 game series sometime in 2011, just a thought.

TOFU basically beat KORT so i don't see how they need to play TSM before facing you. In fact if not for COF joining 1 extra game, they would be playing you right now (provided the last game COF decided to join was not the difference maker).

Yes, I agree ljex, if tofu had won, yes, of course we would be playing them. I am not talking about a cup or league of a forced format, but a clan challenge of 80 games.

What I am suggesting and I have now for over a year is for tofu to play tsm who did not join this cup, as many has seen tsm as a #2 clan over last couple years. We of Thota have played the best clans year in and year out to earn our stripes, tofu never has, kort was the 1st clan that perhaps was a top 5 clan through a format and it was real close.

Most of us on CC know tofu is a very solid clan, but get tested by Tsm, they do that, then for me, they earned the right to play us. This is just my opinion, I would think Tofu would want to do that anyways, if they really want to be regarded as a top tier clan, then they need to play top tier clans like tsm and then thota and show it as many think we may be the top 3 clans. Now, I know tofu has the skilled players to do it, they just have to demonstrate it is all.

[ljex]

Well, this is going to be tough. A pity TOFU were not to play THOTA this year.

You could have been if you had complained about coverage abuse. Or if others were rational rather than emotionally based decision makers.

hopefully Tofu plays TSM soon, then if Tofu wins, Thota could challenge your clan to 80 game series sometime in 2011, just a thought.

TOFU basically beat KORT so i don't see how they need to play TSM before facing you. In fact if not for COF joining 1 extra game, they would be playing you right now (provided the last game COF decided to join was not the difference maker).

Yes, I agree ljex, if tofu had won, yes, of course we would be playing them. I am not talking about a cup or league of a forced format, but a clan challenge of 80 games.

What I am suggesting and I have now for over a year is for tofu to play tsm who did not join this cup, as many has seen tsm as a #2 clan over last couple years. We of Thota have played the best clans year in and year out to earn our stripes, tofu never has, kort was the 1st clan that perhaps was a top 5 clan through a format and it was real close.

Most of us on CC know tofu is a very solid clan, but get tested by Tsm, they do that, then for me, they earned the right to play us. This is just my opinion, I would think Tofu would want to do that anyways, if they really want to be regarded as a top tier clan, then they need to play top tier clans like tsm and then thota and show it as many think we may be the top 3 clans. Now, I know tofu has the skilled players to do it, they just have to demonstrate it is all.

Personally I don't understand THOTA's you need to earn the right to play us...but i don't really care to debate that so ill leave it be. Also TOFU did beat KORT In the games just had COF join 21 games so essentially they did earn the right to play you in the finals of the Conquers Cup. Isn't that enough?

[Dako]

It just sounds that TSM is THOTA dogs for filtering out incompetent clans :D.

[Qwert]

"Dako on Wed Dec 01, 2010 4:44 pm
It just sounds that TSM is THOTA dogs for filtering out incompetent clans ."

Who knows,maybe these is second team of THOTA ? and everybody need first to play with TSM, and if they win,then can play with THOTA?

[trapyoung]

What I am suggesting and I have now for over a year is for tofu to play tsm who did not join this cup, as many has seen tsm as a #2 clan over last couple years. We of Thota have played the best clans year in and year out to earn our stripes, tofu never has, kort was the 1st clan that perhaps was a top 5 clan through a format and it was real close.

Most of us on CC know tofu is a very solid clan, but get tested by Tsm, they do that, then for me, they earned the right to play us. This is just my opinion, I would think Tofu would want to do that anyways, if they really want to be regarded as a top tier clan, then they need to play top tier clans like tsm and then thota and show it as many think we may be the top 3 clans. Now, I know tofu has the skilled players to do it, they just have to demonstrate it is all.

Blitz, you talk about how TOFU has not done anything to be perceived as a top tier clan, but how long will you allow other clans to ride on the coat tails of former success? It was TSM's perogative to decline to participate in Conquer's Cup and CLA, but when you obviate from participating in these events (or clan challenges altogether), then I don't think you deserve the right to retain ranking in light of how others have continued to compete.

The four challenges of TSM were conducted on September 08 (LEGION), February 09 (IA), July 09 (LOW) and October 09 (THOTA). TOFU has conducted challenges (or Conquer's Cup which qualify as challenges) on August 09 (Dragoons), January 10 (Mythology), January 10 (G1), May 10 (AOD), September 10 (AOC), Top 16 (BOFM), Quarterfinals (Legion), and Semifinals (KoRT).

If you disregard TSM's challenge against you, we have both fared against The Legion. Then, considering your preliminary list of Top 2010 clans available here, TOFU has faced two on the Top-10 list (but even you acknowledged later that KoRT is a top-five clan). In the meantime, TSM has remained stagnant. You can harsh on how TOFU has played many clans not in the Top 10, and granted, TSM's war list is impressive, but you've created some inconsistencies.

(1) THOTA faces off against the top-tier competition each year - No war in 2010 against either TOFU or TSM (although I suppose you can claim that games against TSM ended in early 2010), but there was no challenge begun in 2010 that verifies that claim.

(2) Your initial turn down of COF's challenge offer against THOTA was based on the fact that THOTA had faced LOW, which many (some?) members of TOFU were a part of, thus it would not be fair and would be, in kind, repeating the challenge. It seems as if you equate our talent level around (or on par) with LOW which based off of the 2010 and 2009 ranking would put us near a top-3 clan, which your 2010 ranking reflects.

(3) But, so much of your posts harp on earning your due, but do no active challenges in 2010 really warrant a top-2 seeding regardless of past performance? I am not saying TSM is not a top-tier clan, but when deciding which clans to face off against to prove THOTA's mettle year-in and year-out, I sincerely doubt THOTA would repeat such a challenge against TSM when TSM has not played anyone in the intermediary. In fact, if proposed the challenge again, I am certain THOTA would respond that TSM would need to prove they are worthy or would lob out some argument that TOFU is threatening as the overall 2 and, thus, TOFU-TSM would need to face off for the right to face THOTA. But what about THOTA taking on the top of the litter each year?

(4) This is what everyone wants. You talk about perception, but it is clear that EVERYONE except you wants this to happen sooner rather than later. Incandenza even made a post describing his disappointment as he had wanted to retire following a THOTA-TOFU match-up. So, if this list is about perception and this is the challenge people want, then why not make it happen? You'd have a stronger argument if you based it off the Clan Ladder rankings, but would TSM have retained its slot without remaining active? Old challenges do not factor as greatly in one's favor as recent ones (and in my opinion, deservedly so).

- T

[danryan]

It just sounds that TSM is THOTA dogs for filtering out incompetent clans .

I think it's ideal since TSM plays challenges something like every other week . I mean, when's the last challenge they played (pretty sure it's THOTA)?

In any case, until someone beats THOTA, all this is moot, because they have the right to pick who they will or won't play (in a challenge). And the way Blitz is describing his preference for a clan to play in a challenge against them, is very similar to the leapfrog ladder that jpcloet is trying to implement, where a lower ranked clan has to work their way up the ladder before they can challenge the top clan.

[Blitzaholic]

It just sounds that TSM is THOTA dogs for filtering out incompetent clans .

I think it's ideal since TSM plays challenges something like every other week . I mean, when's the last challenge they played (pretty sure it's THOTA)?

In any case, until someone beats THOTA, all this is moot, because they have the right to pick who they will or won't play (in a challenge). And the way Blitz is describing his preference for a clan to play in a challenge against them, is very similar to the leapfrog ladder that jpcloet is trying to implement, where a lower ranked clan has to work their way up the ladder before they can challenge the top clan.

good point dan.


And good post Trapyoung, you made some good arguments and I can respect that. I think our Tsm clan challenge ended around March 2010, then a little summer break, then the Chuuuuck's CUP. All I was trying to share was many perceive, Thota, Tofu, Tsm, IA, and LoW some of the very best clans over last 15 to 18 months or so, with Empire, Nemesis underrated and real close is Kort coming on real strong recently. Tofu and Thota both playing Kort now. We played LoW 2x and some of Tofu were in LoW the 1st time (we realize it is not the same clan), Tsm played IA and won then, so, then we played Tsm who was the winner there in which Tsm played 2 very strong clans. So, we really have just Empire and Tofu to play sometime in 2011 and that could happen, I am open to that. Where we have played most of the other clans named, however, Tofu out of those names named only has played Kort and that was a classic battle.
We like Tsm dislike the clan league of 8 games, too much luck over small portion of games.


So, all I was suggesting was it would be nice to see Tofu play against some of the other top clans over last couple years was all, why wouldn't you want to? I by no means am disrespecting your clan, I think your clan is super strong, it just surprises me that Tofu only played 1 of the top 7 clans over last couple years in a clan challenge is all and that was thru a forced format of the cup which you are currently wrapping up, why is that?

[TheBro]

Because we're the best clan you haven't faced yet. We don't need to earn our right to play THOTA, we already have.

[Blitzaholic]

Because we're the best clan you haven't faced yet. We don't need to earn our right to play THOTA, we already have.

who are the clans you beat in clan challenges?

[TheBro]

Blitz... It doesn't matter. Read the thread. Perception. Tell me I'm wrong.

[Gold Knight]

Because we're the best clan you haven't faced yet. We don't need to earn our right to play THOTA, we already have.

who are the clans you beat in clan challenges?

Me!

It is entirely up to THOTA who they face, regardless of what the public thinks. I personally am not a fan of the "Who have you faced?" argument, but its not my place to argue a mathcup between you two. All i'll say is that ive never received such a terrible beatdown as when AOD played TOFU, as even good rolls and drops often still ended up as losses. Would have been great to see the CCup end up with your matchup even just for entertainment purposes, if not an outright challenge, but perhaps fate is just preventing this from happening.

[trapyoung]

So, all I was suggesting was it would be nice to see Tofu play against some of the other top clans over last couple years was all, why wouldn't you want to? I by no means am disrespecting your clan, I think your clan is super strong, it just surprises me that Tofu only played 1 of the top 7 clans over last couple years in a clan challenge is all and that was thru a forced format of the cup which you are currently wrapping up, why is that?

Size, Time, Schedule, and Commitments

TOFU has 19 active members and even of that list, many are currently burdened with real life things or have many commitments throughout the year. THOTA's clan roster is 28 (not sure how many are active), but having even a few more bodies to throw in the mend can make it much easier to coordinate multiple challenges, events (which given our other commitments, helps explain why any challenge doesn't necessarily work).

Time is pretty self-explanatory - this effects every clan the same on the site and with multiple deadlines and things, everything gets cluttered.

While TOFU and TSM may like to face each other, or any clan for that matter, Schedule conflicts are a huge issue and it plays into the last factor of commitments. TOFU has been largely involved in many events throughout the year such as CLA, TLO, Conquer's Cup, etc. Not to mention we've got at least two huge CC addicts (IM and Steve) who like to run 50+ games at a time and it just becomes burdensome when you're a small clan, engaged in many clan challenges and other events with limited time. We were having them tone down their game loads in anticipation of a match with THOTA.

Given our accomplishments in 2010, scores in these challenges, and performance in non-challenge events, does it not make the accomplishments that much more impressive. We have even lately buffered our clan numbers, but a large portion of the clan's record was achieved with an even lower member count.

It is hard to deny that a THOTA-TOFU challenge would not be scintillating. It would be hard to deny that a TOFU-TSM challenge would also not be fun to watch, but with their clan on a current hiatus and with our current commitments, it is not clear when such an event could occur. Something that was seeming pretty incredible was that through the CC Cup, both clans knew of the potential finals, worked to reduce other commitments so that both would be able to give it their best. We cannot demand clans to play us (as seen quite clearly here), nor can we have availability line up perfectly or wake a sleeping dragonmonkey but at least opening a discourse on a potential THOTA-TOFU match-up now can alleviate some of the symptoms of Size, Time, Schedule and Commitments and based on a "What have you done for me lately" analysis, I still find it hard to argue that TOFU's credentials don't warrant honest consideration.

[khazalid]

don't you worry your pretty litle socks, it will happen.

[trapyoung]

don't you worry your pretty litle socks, it will happen.

Do these socks look worried? Pretty and insulating, yes, maybe even anxious, but not worried.

[Blitzaholic]

Unfortunately, JPcloet and his ladder rankings has to mark tofu as a loss vs kort, which makes this thread even more meaningful as clans perceptions of top clans and the addition of chuuuucks power rankings give this more accuracy and credibility.

I am sure we can find time sometime next year to play you Trapyoung, all I was suggesting was it would be nice to see you play another top tier clan before then was all.

respects, Blitzy

[trapyoung]

Unfortunately, JPcloet and his ladder rankings has to mark tofu as a loss vs kort, which makes this thread even more meaningful as clans perceptions of top clans and the addition of chuuuucks power rankings give this more accuracy and credibility.

I am sure we can find time sometime next year to play you Trapyoung, all I was suggesting was it would be nice to see you play another top tier clan before then was all.

respects, Blitzy

Understood, I did not mean to sound like I took it as a slight at TOFU's ability. As has been noted in various threads at various times, you can put the names of the top 5-6 clans on the site in a hat and pick their name out to see who would win a given challenge because of the parity. Granted, THOTA's been very lucky (haha, just kidding) thus far

I respect a lot of THOTA and actually haven't played much against them since I returned to the site, I have found some fun old games on basic maps like USA or Asia where back in the old days Jpeter and I used to play some of you. Really, I am less concerned with the actual or perceived rankings on the site and look forward to a THOTA match-up not for its implications on the Ladder, but because of the challenge it would entail against top-level players I am familiar with through games or the forums. Quite frankly, besides a few members of KoRT, TSM and LOW, I largely am unaware or unfamiliar (not a slight) with them just because I was gone so long, but a healthy competitiveness has developed between THOTA and TOFU, be it because ages ago I played against you all or have even teamed up with current and former members of THOTA in games (like nikola, khaz, BW, Blitz, aliakber, Big Yuma, etc.) and it is always more fun to play against people you know, then you don't. Couple that in with the two Juggernauts sitting on top of each clan, Blitz and COF - arguably the two best players on the site, and well hell, that just has the makings of a great challenge, be it for first place, pride, bragging rights or purely fun.

[Blitzaholic]

don't you worry your pretty litle socks, it will happen.

Do these socks look worried? Pretty and insulating, yes, maybe even anxious, but not worried.

I'd wear those socks.

Unfortunately, JPcloet and his ladder rankings has to mark tofu as a loss vs kort, which makes this thread even more meaningful as clans perceptions of top clans and the addition of chuuuucks power rankings give this more accuracy and credibility.

I am sure we can find time sometime next year to play you Trapyoung, all I was suggesting was it would be nice to see you play another top tier clan before then was all.

respects, Blitzy

Understood, I did not mean to sound like I took it as a slight at TOFU's ability. As has been noted in various threads at various times, you can put the names of the top 5-6 clans on the site in a hat and pick their name out to see who would win a given challenge because of the parity. Granted, THOTA's been very lucky (haha, just kidding) thus far

I respect a lot of THOTA and actually haven't played much against them since I returned to the site, I have found some fun old games on basic maps like USA or Asia where back in the old days Jpeter and I used to play some of you. Really, I am less concerned with the actual or perceived rankings on the site and look forward to a THOTA match-up not for its implications on the Ladder, but because of the challenge it would entail against top-level players I am familiar with through games or the forums. Quite frankly, besides a few members of KoRT, TSM and LOW, I largely am unaware or unfamiliar (not a slight) with them just because I was gone so long, but a healthy competitiveness has developed between THOTA and TOFU, be it because ages ago I played against you all or have even teamed up with current and former members of THOTA in games (like nikola, khaz, BW, Blitz, aliakber, Big Yuma, etc.) and it is always more fun to play against people you know, then you don't. Couple that in with the two Juggernauts sitting on top of each clan, Blitz and COF - arguably the two best players on the site, and well hell, that just has the makings of a great challenge, be it for first place, pride, bragging rights or purely fun.

well said Trapyoung, I have always had a lot of respect for you and your game skill as well, I wish you were in Thota.

[trapyoung]

well said Trapyoung, I have always had a lot of respect for you and your game skill as well, I wish you were in Thota.

Hahaha , I'm sure if I was in it, you'd probably eat your words. I don't know if you heard, but my incessant chatter, stubbornness, and tendency to be obnoxious may have cost TOFU 21 games in a recent challenge.

Actually, before I quit I talked about trials with a couple people in THOTA, but ultimately didn't do it because DRS was a bunch of real life friends and I didn't want to bail on them. Lo and behold I talk to Peter about how CC was progressing since I had left and apparently he had no such qualms about bailing. If I had known he'd flake so easily, who knows

[ljex]

Because we're the best clan you haven't faced yet. We don't need to earn our right to play THOTA, we already have.

who are the clans you beat in clan challenges?

Me!

It is entirely up to THOTA who they face, regardless of what the public thinks. I personally am not a fan of the "Who have you faced?" argument, but its not my place to argue a mathcup between you two. All i'll say is that ive never received such a terrible beatdown as when AOD played TOFU, as even good rolls and drops often still ended up as losses. Would have been great to see the CCup end up with your matchup even just for entertainment purposes, if not an outright challenge, but perhaps fate is just preventing this from happening.

Not even vs empire in the clan league?

[danryan]

If you need to ask, the answer is no.

[ljex]

If you need to ask, the answer is no.

Well it should be...

[Chariot of Fire]

Blitz said:

"It just surprises me that Tofu only played 1 of the top 7 clans over last couple years in a clan challenge is all and that was thru a forced format of the cup which you are currently wrapping up, why is that?"

We've not been around that long mate - as of now we're just 16 months old. When TOFU was formed we knew from the outset we had no right to challenge any of the top flight clans and had to earn our spurs. I think really the argument has now become one of longevity rather than having to prove ourselves, as our results go to show (in just 16 months remember):

1/2 finals C.Cup - TOFU vs KORT - [30-24, f/cast 32-28]
1/4 finals C.Cup - TOFU vs Legion - [25-15]
1/8 finals C.Cup - TOFU vs BoFM - [29-11]
2010.09 - TOFU vs Agents of Chaos - [26-15]
2010.05 - TOFU vs Angels of Death - [42-18]
2010.01 - TOFU vs Generation 1 - [25-15]
2010.01 - TOFU vs Mythology - [30-10]
2009.08 - TOFU vs Imperial Dragoons - [24-16]
CLA II Finals - TOFU vs AoC - [11-6]
CLA Semi-finals - TOFU vs LotZ - [13-4]
Weeks 11 & 27 - TOFU vs Divine Domination [13-3]
Weeks 8 & 23 - TOFU vs Brethren of the Fat Mermaid - [12-4]
Weeks 6 & 21 - TOFU vs Eternal Empire - [12-4]
Weeks 4 & 19 - TOFU vs Outlaws & Highwaymen - [14-2]
Weeks 2 & 15 - TOFU vs The Last Warriors - [14-2]
Week 13 - TOFU vs The Dark Nits of Chaos (Home) - [6-2]
CLA Season III - currently 40-9

That's 515 competitive games [357-158 record, for 69%] just in league and challenges and we have still never been defeated, even in a best-of-8 CLA head-to-head.

In our brief existence our members (averaging just 14 active) have also won almost 30 tournaments, including the year-long TLO Season II.

I reckon they are credentials that qualify us for a shot at the top now.

If it wasn't for a silly mistake, a stupid rule and an unreasonable opponent that is exactly what we would be doing right now. You're lucky to have dodged that bullet

Good posts by the way. Hope this one is sort of appreciated - it took me bloody ages!

CoF