Reevaluating Point Dumping

[DoomYoshi]

I agree with fircoal's suggestion in principle. Obviously having multiple 'real cases' muddies the issue a bit. However, if rather than having a strict rule on point dumping, we could also try a range. So KA could assign a punishment ranging from fircoal's suggestion to the current practice.

[ljex]

lol, every player who is ever at the top of the scoreboard and stops playing the games they are excellent at drops score, if i suddenly started playing 1 vs 1 or assassin games my score would fall fast but that does not make it point dumping. This site is about fun and one of the things that makes it fun is the wide range of game settings you have available to you, if suddenly its going to be bad for you if you
decide to expand to playing more games this site has lost everything it has going for it.

Why you make such a post is beyond me it serves no good for anything and looks awful for CC even if it is just you making a rash and ill-informed post which im guessing is the case.

ljex are you just only going into this one way and cant perceive in any possible way that your opinion may not be the right one, I mean I want to give you the benefit of the doubt here. But you continue to make me question if you really think before you type. My earlier post was explaining how policy today stands on point dumping.

The earlier thing he did on CC which he mentioned as point dumping which was outlined by him in an email posted by you (shocking once again you relay a message from him in the forums without knowing the content of it, it seems) was not documented in his record. I dont know the direction admin proceeded on it or what factor that plays in this case. If it was him creating games, playing games and dropping score cause he was in the hunt for medal then for me personally no I dont consider that dumping. But he does, or at least he says he did it. Maybe he was dealt with about this and other people besides me are in the know. I am not going to speculate, I will wait to see what the site wants to do with the situation, but I do know that at least in his mind he was Guilty of this once before. If you still cant follow why I came to that conclusion then go back and re-read your post of posting an email from him.

Now this occasion. Seriously? Do you need to question making and joining 65 speed games and deadbeating in every one as point dumping? Do you. Thats pretty clear cut.

As it stands now. His account created 65 games, deadbeated every one. Was put on a temp 6 month ban, as per protocol for an account doing this, and the investigation started. Everyone is given the same fair shake on investigations. This investigation has so far turned up to be linked to him, his account, his computer doing this. Not the popular opinion of all of you but thats what it is. So far the rules have been met just as outlined in the guidelines, and the initial sugg of this thread was mis-informed as to the information as to what as happened.

KS

Really you are going to lecture me on thinking before i type after some of the messages you have posted in response to this situation. Its comical and a little ironic that you post that. What makes you think i have not thought about my responses? I am 99% certain commander62890 would not do this so why would I not post as if he is innocent? Furthermore my post was explaining how if point dumping was as you said dropping a lot of points, cc would lose everything it has going for it and I would intentionally choose to fluctuate between scores of 3000 and 1000 as fast as i could just based on what games I would choose to join and create. It wouldn't be that hard and there would be chaos in CC land if any punishment was given to me. CC is great because of the wide range of settings offered to be played. This does have one side-effect though peoples scores can fluctuate a lot based on what games they chose to play. All that thread commander62890 proved was that he knew how to drop points legally so why bother doing it illegally? This case doesn't make sense, you have even admitted that and yet you and the C&A team are unwilling to give this player the benefit of the doubt even though no harm was done from the so called cheating that occurred. In case you were wondering, yes i did read and understand what commander62890 was saying though it appears you didn't. Of course it was not put on his record...because he didn't break the rules. YOU LITERALLY CANT CONSIDER A DROP IN SCORE BECAUSE OF A CHANGE IN GAME SELECTION POINT DUMPING. As i said earlier this would kill the beauty that is CC and ruin all the fun. Maybe a someone who is supposed to deal with C&A should be aware of the rules enough to decipher what the intention of showing that thread was, and be clear enough on the rules to know that that is not point dumping. LOL at the in his mind he was guilty of it once before clearly you cant understand simple logic as to hey i dropped my score to 1500 legally why would I do it illegally. Yes making and joining 65 speed games in point dumping when did i ever say it wasn't? I just said i don't think it was commander62890 that did it, which many other players have done.

Oh and a 6 month ban for doing something that you can do legally is a bit harsh don't you think? Ill bet you any amount of money that I can get my score to lower than any point dumper (aside from thehekerman) has before they got caught and guested without being punished for it...and yes I'm serious

Oh goodie we have more one size fits all moderating god sometimes CC just makes me so happy

[iamkoolerthanu]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

[king sam]

Message from Commander, directed at King Sam:

"The first time I "point-dropped," I tried hard to win every game. I posted the link because it proves that I know how to "point-drop" legally. And it should most certainly be legal, as long as you are trying to win. You are going to encounter a whole lot of resistance if you are going to argue that medal-hunting is illegal, King Sam. There is nothing to investigate with regard to my prior play.

As for the current accusations against me, investigate that all you want. However, that should be kept in the GD and C+A thread.

There is no need to discuss my specific case in this thread."

Once again I never said your first instance of medal chasing was illegal. Just that given the tone and context of that PM it came off as if you had received a formal Warning on the matter. I am on record more then once in here stating the difference between losing points in regards to chasing medals and point dumping. No need to continue with this arguement saying Im saying contrary to this.

As for keeping it in the right thread. The initial post by me was on how the guidelines are for "point dumping" The original suggestion was mis-informed on how things are handled, and it was done in light of your situation. Me adding the insight on you on the back half of that post was to highlight that maybe this wasnt your 1st run in with this, as I said you made it sound like it wasnt.

After that I have been responding to the situation with you as questions/points have been made, and after my next post will be my last one on the subject in every forum.

KS

[king sam]

I am 99% certain commander62890 would not do this so why would I not post as if he is innocent?.

To be honest just because you think he wouldn’t do this isn't an argument. Especially when facts speak otherwise. I think it’s a crime to pay 4 dollars for a gallon of gas, and I bet I can get thousands more then the commander followers to agree with me, does it then make it so? NO

Furthermore my post was explaining how if point dumping was as you said dropping a lot of points, cc would lose everything it has going for it and I would intentionally choose to fluctuate between scores of 3000 and 1000 as fast as i could just based on what games I would choose to join and create. It wouldn't be that hard and there would be chaos in CC land if any punishment was given to me. CC is great because of the wide range of settings offered to be played. This does have one side-effect though peoples scores can fluctuate a lot based on what games they chose to play..

I never stated "point dumping was dropping a lot of points".. I will review this since as I have stated before your comprehension on the matter, despite me trying to make it as easy as possible to understand, is not up to par.
POINT DUMPING IS INTENTIONALLY LOSING GAMES TO LOWER YOUR SCORE. IT DISRUPTS THE POINT SCALE ON CC AND IS CONSIDERED GROSS ABUSE OF THE SITE. FIRST OFFENSE IS A TEMPORARY ACCOUNT BAN FOR 6 MONTHS. IN THIS ACCOUNT BAN THE USER IS ALLOWED TO CONTINUE IN ALL GAMES, JUST CANT CREATE/JOIN MORE OR POST IN THE COMMUNITY (which is a nasty side effect and would be a good sugg to get fixed). You continuing to restate how point dumping and dropping points are different has already been established as different and never opposed, even by me.
Move on.

All that thread commander62890 proved was that he knew how to drop points legally so why bother doing it illegally? In case you were wondering, yes i did read and understand what commander62890 was saying though it appears you didn't. Of course it was not put on his record...because he didn't break the rules. YOU LITERALLY CANT CONSIDER A DROP IN SCORE BECAUSE OF A CHANGE IN GAME SELECTION POINT DUMPING. As i said earlier this would kill the beauty that is CC and ruin all the fun..

Wrong. The message and thread reference from earlier proves that he was willing to lessen his score in pursuit of medals. Granted as I stated earlier, he was playing in all those games and what he was doing was something I don’t consider as point dumping. But if you read the tone of that message, I even underlined it for you, it sounds as if he received some sort of "official" action about it. If he did, I don’t know, if he didn’t I don’t know. If he did do I agree that medal chasing and losing points is point dumping, once again No. But the tone and content make it sound as such.
There are 2 reasons this is important.

• If there was disciplinary action against him, (once again I'm going off his email) then the next escalation for a violation of dumping (assuming the first violation was point dumping) would be a perma ban. That of course is going off the guidelines for gross abuse or point dumping.
• The fact that he didn’t have regard for his points at one time, as admitted by him, to pursue other things on the site doesn’t make this scenario out of the realms for him to do it again. Everyone wants to bring up character into this situation, well here are a few examples or trends that we have seen as well:
  
  • He has had total disregard for other rules on the site, such as posting from other users accounts, even after being told not to and forcing some of those friends to receive disciplinary action on them.
  • He has lost points before to chase other things.
  • He wants to pursue other accolades besides rank/scoreboard.
  • He is on record about doing it before and has shown interest in losing points to see how far he can climb in a month for a MVP medal which hasn’t been approved yet. (Granted this medal doesn’t exist, and his post below is more of a theory of doing it rather then really doing it but proof shows that it might be something he would wish to do as a personal accomplishment)

Cited here:
Subject: SCOREBOARD-MVP of the Month(page 1)[POLL][Submitted -bb]

Here, try thinking about it from a high rank's perspective:

Here I am, up around 4500. I am incredibly skilled, and maintain my score despite winning 5-10 points per win and losing 30-40 for a loss. I usually stay around 4500, but sometimes dip to as low as 4000 and go up as high as 4700.
In a given month, I can gain only about 700 points at best; I can't seem to get higher than 4700.
Now, I find out that I could get a medal by gaining the most points possible in a given month. I want the medal, but also want to keep my score. I decide never to drop my score in order to get it, and never have a chance to even come close... despite being a far better player than many of the MVP winners.

That is what will happen to most high ranks.
But, for argument's sake, let's say I do decide to go for it.
I play hundreds of speed assassin doodles and drop my score all the way down to 1200.

Now, I am ready to go for it. I gain 3,000 (regular scoreboard) points in the next month and am the MVP.
But now, I'm at 4,200 and have no chance of being MVP again. I can't gain 3,000 points in the next month, obviously.
So, in the next month, I drop my score down to Sergeant again in order to prepare for my MVP run.
And in the next month, with a score of 1200...

This case doesn't make sense, you have even admitted that and yet you and the C&A team are unwilling to give this player the benefit of the doubt even though no harm was done from the so called cheating that occurred.

I'm sorry it doesn't make sense to you. All actions that have occurred are in accordance with our guidelines. This is a rule on the site, and when violated this is the current procedure for response. It is a rule because there is harm that comes out of it. We have never said this case doesn’t make sense. It makes sense to us that with all the evidence compiled together he is Guilty of this. We have extended a branch for him and the community to provide insight or explanations why we could be seeing what we are seeing. The explanations given by him don’t make sense. They don’t add up. And yes your correct benefit of the doubt is not ever given to any player that has evidence suggesting otherwise just because he is a good guy, or has a lot of people vouching for him. Rules are the rules. If you violate them then you will be held accountable as per the guidelines. You cant get out of it by having friends show force and plea for a leniency cause you think he didn’t do it.

Maybe a someone who is supposed to deal with C&A should be aware of the rules enough to decipher what the intention of showing that thread was, and be clear enough on the rules to know that that is not point dumping. LOL at the in his mind he was guilty of it once before clearly you cant understand simple logic as to hey i dropped my score to 1500 legally why would I do it illegally. Yes making and joining 65 speed games in point dumping when did i ever say it wasn't? I just said i don't think it was commander62890 that did it, which many other players have done.

Oh and a 6 month ban for doing something that you can do legally is a bit harsh don't you think? Ill bet you any amount of money that I can get my score to lower than any point dumper (aside from thehekerman) has before they got caught and guested without being punished for it...and yes I'm serious

Oh goodie we have more one size fits all moderating god sometimes CC just makes me so happy

Take it up with admin, your rants and raves in the forum are off base, as I said I don't think your reading it or comprehending it correctly. Although I don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Facts are: He created 65 speed games, and deadbeated all of them. = Point Dumping
In any Point Dumping case the following occurs and has occurred here:

• Temporary suspension of account in the manner of not letting them create/join more games. It is said to be 6 months but it will be released once the evidence is sorted out
• If the member is found Guilty then 1st violation is a 1 month vacation unless site feels it to be detrimental enough to part ways. This is a business, and they can deny service to anyone, especially someone who violates their policies
• If it is the 2nd Major Violation of this nature then its bye bye for good.

Right now evidence has been collected, and interpreted to be him. He will at the least be subject to a 1 month vacation and at the most be banned for good. This is up to the higher ups to decide. The thread has been left open until this has been decided upon as well as keeping an open avenue for information flow to the community and mods on the situation.

Now I cant and wont explain it any further. I have repeated myself more in this then I have to do talking to my toddlers. If you have further questions then either search for the answers for yourself, or contact or wait for another mod to fulfill your needs.

Everything involving this case has been in direct accordance with the guidelines for it.

[Master Chief]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

[ljex]

facts are

He has had total disregard for other rules on the site, such as posting from other users accounts, even after being told not to and forcing some of those friends to receive disciplinary action on them.

Only after he was not allowed to defend himself publicly and yes i think he should be punished for this as he was clearly told not to but still did it

He has lost points before to chase other things.

Lol but he did it legally if that was his goal this time why not do it legally?

He wants to pursue other accolades besides rank/scoreboard.

at this point what does he have left to do in terms of accolades but score?

He is on record about doing it before and has shown interest in losing points to see how far he can climb in a month for a MVP medal which hasn’t been approved yet. (Granted this medal doesn’t exist, and his post below is more of a theory of doing it rather then really doing it but proof shows that it might be something he would wish to do as a personal accomplishment)

he puts forth a hypothetical situation and you take it as what he would do? I think you need to learn something about how to read and comprehend the point of messages...clearly that is not about him, not even close. He has never even been close to a score of 4700 in fact his high is about 1000 points below that, and because he gets points through team games it would take him a long time to get his points back. He was simply pointing out a flaw in that medal and why it should not be implemented...something i agree with


Oh and i only skimmed your message because I have better things to do with my time than read you repeating yourself a bunch of times over and over again, but i didnt see any response to my statement that i can drop to a lower score than any point dumper ever has without getting punished for point dumping. Commander62890 knows what games to play to see his score drop just because of the luck factor of them...why would he not do that instead of point dumping.

Anyway clearly this site has no empathy for longstanding members who have shown nothing but the fact that they want be a positive influence on the community and instead we ban them for something that IMO shouldnt even be a site infraction.

Lastly, if he was disciplined for "point dumping" in results to the linked thread earlier it would be on his paddle...you as a mod should know that if it is not there it is not part of his history and thus you are speaking out of your ass when you say things like this might be his second infraction. Beyond that it makes it look like those are your opinions that you are posting or the facts of the case...which is simply not true. I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the moderating actions from the C&A team over the last month or so there are multiple instances of things that should have been handled differently as keep them in good standing and with a good image in the community. I'm not saying there were many wrong decisions but definitely the wrong way to handle them. If you want I can make a nice list of them but since you say you are done with this i will not waste my time.

[king sam]

TBH I wasnt going to reply. I planned on announcing my retirement from C&A at the closing of this case next week, and I was going to let what I had already said on this matter be it. But I feel there needs to be a final response to you ljex, as you still are having trouble "getting it".

facts are

He has lost points before to chase other things.

Lol but he did it legally if that was his goal this time why not do it legally?

I dont know Im sure with your vast knowledge of how the world works you can come up with an explanation. Oh wait you did, It was he is a good guy, he knows the rules he wouldnt break them..

He wants to pursue other accolades besides rank/scoreboard.

at this point what does he have left to do in terms of accolades but score?

Come on really. Are you that dense. After you receive all the medals on the site, and have the best score is it time to just move on? Let me give you a life lesson that its obvious you have failed to learn as of yet, maybe cause your world revolves around CC and you have no experience outside of a gaming website on the internet. People do unexplained things all the time, some for no reason, some for reasons that arent clear or lack any kind of sense. Your telling me its not possible that maybe he got bored and wanted to see how much he could climb, or how many points he could gain after a drop like this. Wait a minute, your defense against that is that he is a good guy, he wouldnt do that. Got it.
BTW yes after getting to a point one can set personal goals that they wish to obtain to continue to be happy, a competition with oneself, and yes it is feasible that this could have been a motive behind it. Not solid evidence, but a theory, and one that cant be defended by how swell he is so he is innocent.

He is on record about doing it before and has shown interest in losing points to see how far he can climb in a month for a MVP medal which hasn’t been approved yet. (Granted this medal doesn’t exist, and his post below is more of a theory of doing it rather then really doing it but proof shows that it might be something he would wish to do as a personal accomplishment)

he puts forth a hypothetical situation and you take it as what he would do? I think you need to learn something about how to read and comprehend the point of messages..

I really have worries for the next generation after continually seeing your lack of comprehension.
FYI. I underlined and bolded my stance on that post I quoted. The rest of the context of that reference, which conveniently you left out, shows a plausible theory:

• His desire for such a thing (Motive)
  (went over this in the "accolades lesson" I have just given you)
• Plausibility of what it would take for him to achieve it (Intent)
• CONTEXT
  (Seems to me like a dump in points could be explained by wanting to go for a personal goal how far he could rise in a given amount of time)

Oh and i only skimmed your message because I have better things to do with my time than read you repeating yourself a bunch of times over and over again, but i didnt see any response to my statement that i can drop to a lower score than any point dumper ever has without getting punished for point dumping. Commander62890 knows what games to play to see his score drop just because of the luck factor of them...why would he not do that instead of point dumping.

Obviously you dont have better things to do with your time, as you frivolously post on this subject in his behalf for a violation that is on an online web game. I didnt respond to your statement cause it didnt entitle a response, and once again the defense that he knows how to do it legally and he is a good guy isnt much of a defense at all.

Anyway clearly this site has no empathy for longstanding members who have shown nothing but the fact that they want be a positive influence on the community and instead we ban them for something that IMO shouldnt even be a site infraction.

Your right, longstanding members who have been a positive influence to it should not be held accountable to the actions as per the guidelines which everyone else is held accountable to. If your a longstanding member come 1 come all, start violating rules, your good.
Come on, seriously. NOT IMPRESSED with your defense of commander here. If this had been a real trial and you were his attorney then you would be looking for work, maybe even a change in career.

Shouldnt be a site infraction? Well we are all glad its not up to you. Making or being in games without the intent of competing in them, solely there to lose points disrupts the integrity of the scoreboard. Its a published rule.

Lastly, if he was disciplined for "point dumping" in results to the linked thread earlier it would be on his paddle...you as a mod should know that if it is not there it is not part of his history and thus you are speaking out of your ass when you say things like this might be his second infraction. Beyond that it makes it look like those are your opinions that you are posting or the facts of the case...which is simply not true. I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the moderating actions from the C&A team over the last month or so there are multiple instances of things that should have been handled differently as keep them in good standing and with a good image in the community. I'm not saying there were many wrong decisions but definitely the wrong way to handle them. If you want I can make a nice list of them but since you say you are done with this i will not waste my time.

Thank you for telling me about the paddle, i had no clue what that was prior to your post. Once again i am amazed how your rants and raves lack comprehension. Do yourself a favor and before you respond again go back and carefully re-read the thread, or at least my statements before you go typing again. If you need help with the big words let me know.

Obviously the paddle was checked, as my earlier statement said he said

"You all know that I have "point-dropped" before, right? A year-and-a-half ago, I was at 3000+ and dropped to 1400 by playing 1v1s and speed doodles.
I know the rules, and the fact that I "dropped rank" from 3000+ to 1400 one-and-a-half years ago proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt."

This statement sounds as if an official stance on the subject was delivered to him (believe it or not, this view is shared by others) I stated several times that I dont have information about that because it was not documented on his account. (Means I know about the paddle)

Surprisingly enough, sometimes things fall through the cracks, he could have received an official Warning on it from a case that was turned in via an E-Ticket and the claim, and appropriate references werent logged on his account. Meaning only the people directly involved with that are in the know, and I stated that I wasnt one of them. That if there was an infraction from earlier that this would be his 2nd. During the whole process of me explaining that I also stated that if what he claims as "Being Guilty of Point Dropping" was indeed just him dropping points cause he was in pursuit of medals, but was competitively playing games then I dont think that was a violation at all.

Lastly, this isnt a popularity contest, I dont care if you like me or despise me. Doing the job of keeping people playing with in the rules, not everyone is always going to agree or see eye to eye. But as long as it is done by the standards in which everyone is treated then its a success.

Final Review,
He had motive or at least a theory of one.
(Wanting to see how many points he could climb back up)
He had premeditated what it would take to do this (climb back up that is)
Then the offense was committed 65 games, all deadbeated
All evidence points that is was him, even after hearing his rebuttal's
And the only excuse given that it wasnt him, which we are supposed to use to treat him differently then anyone else is he is a good guy, he wouldnt do this, he is a longstanding member on CC.

You begged and pleaded for insight on why we are ruling this way, we come out and give you some, and all you want to do is argue that his character (which you know from online experience) is of such a high caliber that the rules that everyone else is governed by shouldn't apply to him.

You and whoever else can bash me, or the C&A Team all you want. Bottom line is there a good group of people that behind the scenes put in a lot of time and effort to ensure everyone on here continues to have a positive gaming experience. But thats what it is a game, people are going to cheat, sometimes explanations can be made, sometimes they cant, regardless of it these fella's go by the books when investigating it and handing out the punishment. They have to, its the only way to do it so it remains impartial to everyone. The system used involves people, meaning its not always 100% accurate. They make mistakes, I made mistakes, but they can recognize that and re mediate it, all in all it works. This case looks like the unpopular decision will be made that the commander is guilty, be pleased that they continued to listen and look into it like they did, and be pleased that they handled this by the books as they would for anyone despite the community outcry on it. Thats fair impartial treatment at its best, and is the standard you should expect from their work.

As for me, I got real life things and refuse to be a burden to them by not being able to contribute as much time as they need. Maybe open the door to another, no not you ljex. I enjoyed being here and doing it, and will be the first to tell you that these guys dont get the due credit they deserve. Hats off to all of you, pleasure working with you.

This post to include yes the flames was by me, not the posture of Team CC. Standing by for the Warning on it.

I got nothing else.
KS

[SirSebstar]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

it is correct that the above hierarchy is not complete.
as King Sam rightly mentioned, you get a 6 months ban from creating new games while the investigation is going on.
Also multi's are not mentioned in this list. So you can see there are multiple ways of dealing with things. I dont call the penalty right now, because it is neither my station nor my place to do such thing, but i gather there was pointdumping going on by making and deadbeating 65 or 56 games. (cant remember the amount). There is also that commander used other accounts to publish on the forums because he could not.. If both cases are combined or added up, the final penalty can be harsh..

Obviously the hunters have asked for evidence that can proof that commander was not the one starting these games, I have seen no such evidence in the forums to date. i would judge the situation grim and advice calmly running around in panick..
It's a shitty job being a multi hunter volunteer and they certainly don't get enough respect for the work they do..

[greenoaks]

they have my respect

btw, even though my name is greenoaks, there is only one of me

[pascalleke]

So all people wo loose more points then average/usual because they are on a medal hunt are all stated guilty on point dumping?


this case is really turning into a big farce/joke or just an good episode of ....the simpsons

[TheForgivenOne]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

This is from a PM Conversation I had with king achilles

I would say, it's more of a case by case depending on how the person explains his situation and what evidence we have. In the past, if the guy is too obnoxious or too proud to admit he did anything wrong, or to him, we deserve what he did for all the wrong that was done to him, or he felt it was his right to do whatever he wants with his account, then he get's a perma ban.

[Master Chief]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

This is from a PM Conversation I had with king achilles

I would say, it's more of a case by case depending on how the person explains his situation and what evidence we have. In the past, if the guy is too obnoxious or too proud to admit he did anything wrong, or to him, we deserve what he did for all the wrong that was done to him, or he felt it was his right to do whatever he wants with his account, then he get's a perma ban.

Commander: "Shall I lie and tell them I did it in order to receive a lesser punishment?"

[tdans]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

This is from a PM Conversation I had with king achilles

I would say, it's more of a case by case depending on how the person explains his situation and what evidence we have. In the past, if the guy is too obnoxious or too proud to admit he did anything wrong, or to him, we deserve what he did for all the wrong that was done to him, or he felt it was his right to do whatever he wants with his account, then he get's a perma ban.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! his response is hilarious!!! Now we know!

[ljex]

TBH I wasnt going to reply. I planned on announcing my retirement from C&A at the closing of this case next week, and I was going to let what I had already said on this matter be it. But I feel there needs to be a final response to you ljex, as you still are having trouble "getting it".

facts are

He has lost points before to chase other things.

Lol but he did it legally if that was his goal this time why not do it legally?

I dont know Im sure with your vast knowledge of how the world works you can come up with an explanation. Oh wait you did, It was he is a good guy, he knows the rules he wouldnt break them..

He wants to pursue other accolades besides rank/scoreboard.

at this point what does he have left to do in terms of accolades but score?

Come on really. Are you that dense. After you receive all the medals on the site, and have the best score is it time to just move on? Let me give you a life lesson that its obvious you have failed to learn as of yet, maybe cause your world revolves around CC and you have no experience outside of a gaming website on the internet. People do unexplained things all the time, some for no reason, some for reasons that arent clear or lack any kind of sense. Your telling me its not possible that maybe he got bored and wanted to see how much he could climb, or how many points he could gain after a drop like this. Wait a minute, your defense against that is that he is a good guy, he wouldnt do that. Got it.
BTW yes after getting to a point one can set personal goals that they wish to obtain to continue to be happy, a competition with oneself, and yes it is feasible that this could have been a motive behind it. Not solid evidence, but a theory, and one that cant be defended by how swell he is so he is innocent.

He is on record about doing it before and has shown interest in losing points to see how far he can climb in a month for a MVP medal which hasn’t been approved yet. (Granted this medal doesn’t exist, and his post below is more of a theory of doing it rather then really doing it but proof shows that it might be something he would wish to do as a personal accomplishment)

he puts forth a hypothetical situation and you take it as what he would do? I think you need to learn something about how to read and comprehend the point of messages..

I really have worries for the next generation after continually seeing your lack of comprehension.
FYI. I underlined and bolded my stance on that post I quoted. The rest of the context of that reference, which conveniently you left out, shows a plausible theory:

• His desire for such a thing (Motive)
  (went over this in the "accolades lesson" I have just given you)
• Plausibility of what it would take for him to achieve it (Intent)
• CONTEXT
  (Seems to me like a dump in points could be explained by wanting to go for a personal goal how far he could rise in a given amount of time)

Oh and i only skimmed your message because I have better things to do with my time than read you repeating yourself a bunch of times over and over again, but i didnt see any response to my statement that i can drop to a lower score than any point dumper ever has without getting punished for point dumping. Commander62890 knows what games to play to see his score drop just because of the luck factor of them...why would he not do that instead of point dumping.

Obviously you dont have better things to do with your time, as you frivolously post on this subject in his behalf for a violation that is on an online web game. I didnt respond to your statement cause it didnt entitle a response, and once again the defense that he knows how to do it legally and he is a good guy isnt much of a defense at all.

Anyway clearly this site has no empathy for longstanding members who have shown nothing but the fact that they want be a positive influence on the community and instead we ban them for something that IMO shouldnt even be a site infraction.

Your right, longstanding members who have been a positive influence to it should not be held accountable to the actions as per the guidelines which everyone else is held accountable to. If your a longstanding member come 1 come all, start violating rules, your good.
Come on, seriously. NOT IMPRESSED with your defense of commander here. If this had been a real trial and you were his attorney then you would be looking for work, maybe even a change in career.

Shouldnt be a site infraction? Well we are all glad its not up to you. Making or being in games without the intent of competing in them, solely there to lose points disrupts the integrity of the scoreboard. Its a published rule.

Lastly, if he was disciplined for "point dumping" in results to the linked thread earlier it would be on his paddle...you as a mod should know that if it is not there it is not part of his history and thus you are speaking out of your ass when you say things like this might be his second infraction. Beyond that it makes it look like those are your opinions that you are posting or the facts of the case...which is simply not true. I have to say I am extremely disappointed with the moderating actions from the C&A team over the last month or so there are multiple instances of things that should have been handled differently as keep them in good standing and with a good image in the community. I'm not saying there were many wrong decisions but definitely the wrong way to handle them. If you want I can make a nice list of them but since you say you are done with this i will not waste my time.

Thank you for telling me about the paddle, i had no clue what that was prior to your post. Once again i am amazed how your rants and raves lack comprehension. Do yourself a favor and before you respond again go back and carefully re-read the thread, or at least my statements before you go typing again. If you need help with the big words let me know.

Obviously the paddle was checked, as my earlier statement said he said

"You all know that I have "point-dropped" before, right? A year-and-a-half ago, I was at 3000+ and dropped to 1400 by playing 1v1s and speed doodles.
I know the rules, and the fact that I "dropped rank" from 3000+ to 1400 one-and-a-half years ago proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt."

This statement sounds as if an official stance on the subject was delivered to him (believe it or not, this view is shared by others) I stated several times that I dont have information about that because it was not documented on his account. (Means I know about the paddle)

Surprisingly enough, sometimes things fall through the cracks, he could have received an official Warning on it from a case that was turned in via an E-Ticket and the claim, and appropriate references werent logged on his account. Meaning only the people directly involved with that are in the know, and I stated that I wasnt one of them. That if there was an infraction from earlier that this would be his 2nd. During the whole process of me explaining that I also stated that if what he claims as "Being Guilty of Point Dropping" was indeed just him dropping points cause he was in pursuit of medals, but was competitively playing games then I dont think that was a violation at all.

Lastly, this isnt a popularity contest, I dont care if you like me or despise me. Doing the job of keeping people playing with in the rules, not everyone is always going to agree or see eye to eye. But as long as it is done by the standards in which everyone is treated then its a success.

Final Review,
He had motive or at least a theory of one.
(Wanting to see how many points he could climb back up)
He had premeditated what it would take to do this (climb back up that is)
Then the offense was committed 65 games, all deadbeated
All evidence points that is was him, even after hearing his rebuttal's
And the only excuse given that it wasnt him, which we are supposed to use to treat him differently then anyone else is he is a good guy, he wouldnt do this, he is a longstanding member on CC.

You begged and pleaded for insight on why we are ruling this way, we come out and give you some, and all you want to do is argue that his character (which you know from online experience) is of such a high caliber that the rules that everyone else is governed by shouldn't apply to him.

You and whoever else can bash me, or the C&A Team all you want. Bottom line is there a good group of people that behind the scenes put in a lot of time and effort to ensure everyone on here continues to have a positive gaming experience. But thats what it is a game, people are going to cheat, sometimes explanations can be made, sometimes they cant, regardless of it these fella's go by the books when investigating it and handing out the punishment. They have to, its the only way to do it so it remains impartial to everyone. The system used involves people, meaning its not always 100% accurate. They make mistakes, I made mistakes, but they can recognize that and re mediate it, all in all it works. This case looks like the unpopular decision will be made that the commander is guilty, be pleased that they continued to listen and look into it like they did, and be pleased that they handled this by the books as they would for anyone despite the community outcry on it. Thats fair impartial treatment at its best, and is the standard you should expect from their work.

As for me, I got real life things and refuse to be a burden to them by not being able to contribute as much time as they need. Maybe open the door to another, no not you ljex. I enjoyed being here and doing it, and will be the first to tell you that these guys dont get the due credit they deserve. Hats off to all of you, pleasure working with you.

This post to include yes the flames was by me, not the posture of Team CC. Standing by for the Warning on it.

I got nothing else.
KS

Do you really need to post novels as responses? I really don't have the time to read the entire thing...why i missed your statement the first time with regards to the this could mean he dropped points for the reason about the player of the month thread.

Anyway...a few flaws with your posts, in order to receive an official warning it has to be paddled so i found it kinda funny that when you were talking about how you know the paddle you say incorrect things about how it works.

Also seriously because i come defend my friend in the forms it shows that i am nothing but someone who constantly plays cc? I can guarantee you spend more time on this site on average than me over the last few months and probably even before that when I was on cc a lot. Those in glass houses should not throw stones as the saying goes.

Yes point dumping screws the scoreboard...but so do a lot of other things. Do you really think of me as the second best player on this site? Also i could easily make my score <1500 legally by playing assdoodles and stuff like that and then my score would be too low...the way the site works the scoreboard means nothing, the only issue with point dumping in my mind occurs when an individual gains a lot of points by playing a point dumper...but the other way around is easy to attain by just playing the right or wrong games.

You begged and pleaded for insight on why we are ruling this way, we come out and give you some, and all you want to do is argue that his character (which you know from online experience) is of such a high caliber that the rules that everyone else is governed by shouldn't apply to him.

read posts...I actually know commander62890 in real life and am a friend of his. Not only that but i was his roommate before he switched schools, so does that make me qualified to comment on his character?

You and whoever else can bash me, or the C&A Team all you want. Bottom line is there a good group of people that behind the scenes put in a lot of time and effort to ensure everyone on here continues to have a positive gaming experience.

1) clearly everyone is having fun...
2)as i used to be a moderator...i understand that argument and i even understand that not everyone can be happy but really there have been some situations handled awfully that make me lose faith in the moderation of this site even if they were the right rulings as they were done in the wrong way.

If i had hours of free i would be happy to read and reply to your entire post but i think i got the main points

[jackal31]

In response to Ljex and King Sam:

Either I was missed by the boat, or I am thinking outside the box here.

First, it does look very suspicious to state "I point dumped legally". I dont understand why that statement even came out. I dont find it to be point dumping if you play the game. Point dumping is intentional. So by making that remark, then yes, this will be looked at differently.

Second, if a person plays a ton of games on their favorite map, then they will likely master it and gain a good amount of points. I have my maps I do it with. But when I tried to play more freestyle, assassin and nuke games, I started taking a hit in my score. Primarily because I had to play against all ranks rather than restricting the ranks to higher value. The players of higher value were not interested in many of those games or style. I did this to achieve my medal count, but then gave up on it because of the difficulty. I wasnt comfortable with sinking (from the sink or swim theory).

So technically, what happened was "legal" and does have some merit. This is a complete different situation now. But I dont understand why we keep going back to this statement. Why dont you look into it more and try to understand what he means? All youre doing is badgering one another about your smarts, ignorance, and anything in between.

Also, if Commander is found to be guilty, does this mean the "new" rule proposal will engage on Commanders behalf, or the old rules?

[SirSebstar]

Do you really need to post novels as responses? I really don't have the time to read the entire thing...why i missed your statement the first time with regards to the this could mean he dropped points for the reason about the player of the month thread.

you seriously expect the mods to be at your beck and call and you don't even want to put in some effort? seriously?!? Well the mods are here for you, and they anwser as fully as possible. At least take the courtesy to read it before you post. this also applies to your next bit..

...

Also seriously because i come defend my friend in the forms it shows that i am nothing but someone who constantly plays cc? I can guarantee you spend more time on this site on average than me over the last few months and probably even before that when I was on cc a lot. Those in glass houses should not throw stones as the saying goes...

he made the joke that you apparently have the time to post in here, but not to read the single most important reply in the entire thread?!! and YOU call that glass houses... I think you are the one who wrote it was too long to read...So if a mod states he did not think your post was needing a reply by him.. well i can see some pot catle thingy..

then we get to you know him and can attest to his character...

read posts...I actually know commander62890 in real life and am a friend of his. Not only that but i was his roommate before he switched schools, so does that make me qualified to comment on his character?

and there you go with the read posts comment again. Obviously you are qualified to give testemony to his character. Hell, i can too, i like the dude and i want to play with him.. But it has been stated that this is NOT about a characterreference. And just because he is a nice guy he does mean he gets a free out of jail card if he does something wrong. All quite logical, and again, not a deformation of character of either you or commander. If you do the crime, you do the time, no matter who you know..sort off.

If i had hours of free i would be happy to read and reply to your entire post but i think i got the main points

I think you missed it.

As a fellow friend of commander, i thank you for your support of him. However, there is evidence against commander that any amount of good feelings is not going to cure. It needs to be more substantial and me liking him is not going to cut it. I hope the real person would step forward since i too have a hard time believing it, but untill that time, i too have to believe the mods are doing their best, and their best has nearly reached a conclusion

i hope this clears things up a little
Regards
SirSebstar

[40kguy]

1. Major/Severe Infractions follow a shortened vacation escalation scale of: Warning,
2. One Month Vacation,
3. Permanent Vacation.

I kinda want people not to ignore this post.. just wondering why commander skips the 1st step..

Can we get a mod in on this? I've heard conflicting stories. Is this above hierarchy rule list not correct?

This is from a PM Conversation I had with king achilles

I would say, it's more of a case by case depending on how the person explains his situation and what evidence we have. In the past, if the guy is too obnoxious or too proud to admit he did anything wrong, or to him, we deserve what he did for all the wrong that was done to him, or he felt it was his right to do whatever he wants with his account, then he get's a perma ban.

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! his response is hilarious!!! Now we know!

chickens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SirSebstar]

Jackal31,
that ship has sailed already. Yes, the comment was made, and later found by the C&A's. In the end it was discarded and is now not relevant to these latest deadbeated games. Since that means there is no new rule i think that covers it.

recap.
65 games were deadbeated in, from what appears to be commanders account on his usual ip.
commander uses other accounts to post online against the site policy.
that is what the mods are dealing with right now i think. anything else is gossip and heresay.
The C&Amods requested more information on clearing up how the 65 games could have started from commanders account and seemingly from his ip. Any information relating this is still usefull. A characterstatement is not...

regards,
SirSebstar
NOT a C&A mod

In response to Ljex and King Sam:

Either I was missed by the boat, or I am thinking outside the box here.

First, it does look very suspicious to state "I point dumped legally". I dont understand why that statement even came out. I dont find it to be point dumping if you play the game. Point dumping is intentional. So by making that remark, then yes, this will be looked at differently.

Second, if a person plays a ton of games on their favorite map, then they will likely master it and gain a good amount of points. I have my maps I do it with. But when I tried to play more freestyle, assassin and nuke games, I started taking a hit in my score. Primarily because I had to play against all ranks rather than restricting the ranks to higher value. The players of higher value were not interested in many of those games or style. I did this to achieve my medal count, but then gave up on it because of the difficulty. I wasnt comfortable with sinking (from the sink or swim theory).

So technically, what happened was "legal" and does have some merit. This is a complete different situation now. But I dont understand why we keep going back to this statement. Why dont you look into it more and try to understand what he means? All youre doing is badgering one another about your smarts, ignorance, and anything in between.

Also, if Commander is found to be guilty, does this mean the "new" rule proposal will engage on Commanders behalf, or the old rules?

[Commander9]

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! his response is hilarious!!! Now we know!

Indeed, now we know.

[ljex]

Jackal31,
that ship has sailed already. Yes, the comment was made, and later found by the C&A's. In the end it was discarded and is now not relevant to these latest deadbeated games. Since that means there is no new rule i think that covers it.

recap.
65 games were deadbeated in, from what appears to be commanders account on his usual ip.
commander uses other accounts to post online against the site policy.
that is what the mods are dealing with right now i think. anything else is gossip and heresay.
The C&Amods requested more information on clearing up how the 65 games could have started from commanders account and seemingly from his ip. Any information relating this is still usefull. A characterstatement is not...

regards,
SirSebstar
NOT a C&A mod

In response to Ljex and King Sam:

Either I was missed by the boat, or I am thinking outside the box here.

First, it does look very suspicious to state "I point dumped legally". I dont understand why that statement even came out. I dont find it to be point dumping if you play the game. Point dumping is intentional. So by making that remark, then yes, this will be looked at differently.

Second, if a person plays a ton of games on their favorite map, then they will likely master it and gain a good amount of points. I have my maps I do it with. But when I tried to play more freestyle, assassin and nuke games, I started taking a hit in my score. Primarily because I had to play against all ranks rather than restricting the ranks to higher value. The players of higher value were not interested in many of those games or style. I did this to achieve my medal count, but then gave up on it because of the difficulty. I wasnt comfortable with sinking (from the sink or swim theory).

So technically, what happened was "legal" and does have some merit. This is a complete different situation now. But I dont understand why we keep going back to this statement. Why dont you look into it more and try to understand what he means? All youre doing is badgering one another about your smarts, ignorance, and anything in between.

Also, if Commander is found to be guilty, does this mean the "new" rule proposal will engage on Commanders behalf, or the old rules?

we keep talking about it because it proves he knew how to lower his score to 1500 without breaking any of the site rules. This does not make him innocent but it makes you further wonder why he would point dump.

[SirSebstar]

Lukely the question why someone does anything is not a relevant factor in this. speedGames were started, deadbeated and apparently no plausable explanation has been made. in general, you do not just get a penalty. Something happend, mods react, put a stop to it, and release the temporary ban once it is sufficiently clear. It is not sufficieantly clear. thats where we are now. thats how I understand it.

[Mr Changsha]

As far as I can tell if you start a bunch of games you have no known capability at and then drop hundreds of points while playing your turns then that's not point dumping, but rather point dropping.

Semantics? Ha!

On the other hand if you set up 40 speed games and deadbeat out of them all then that's point dumping and, figuratively speaking, CC wraps your testicles around your throat.

I think that's right.

The latter way reflects the lazy, self-indulgent mind-set of the confirmed shit-for-brains, the former is the action of a man who knows what he wants (a lower score) but does it in an honourable fashion.

So you can point drop legally...you've just got to not make a mockery of the site as you go about it.

So..no need to change the rules.

[AndyDufresne]

We've amended the Point Dumping Infraction:

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=144668&p=3153364#p3153364


--Andy

[jefjef]

Shouldn't those who majorly benefit from dumped points also be classified a Special Case Infraction?