For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[the.killing.44]

I agree that different infractions should have different scale levels. However there will be different levels of certain infractions, how would we handle that? For example "your an idiot" vs. "You motha @#%$# moron!......" Would those be separated?

Context, context, context. Was it in live chat? the forums? or game chat?

.44

[Woodruff]

quick question?
If someone recieves a permaban, how hard is it really to just start up a new account with a different credit card and a different name?

If they're using the same computer, they'll almost certainly be caught. If they're not using the same computer, then they're probably going through a lot more trouble than it's worth, and they'll get sick of it.

[redhawk92]

quick question?
If someone recieves a permaban, how hard is it really to just start up a new account with a different credit card and a different name?

If they're using the same computer, they'll almost certainly be caught. If they're not using the same computer, then they're probably going through a lot more trouble than it's worth, and they'll get sick of it.

it is same ip if it is same internet on both though?

[Woodruff]

quick question?
If someone recieves a permaban, how hard is it really to just start up a new account with a different credit card and a different name?

If they're using the same computer, they'll almost certainly be caught. If they're not using the same computer, then they're probably going through a lot more trouble than it's worth, and they'll get sick of it.

it is same ip if it is same internet on both though?

I'm not sure what you mean, kyle...could you re-phrase your question?

[redhawk92]

i have 4 comp at my hose are they same ip?

[4myGod]

i have 4 comp at my hose are they same ip?

They will be the same ip. If you go to your neighbors house it will not be the same.

[ender516]

i believe offenses should be separate. so if you receive an offense for trolling, to take a step up, you have to commit the same offense again. if you then commit an offense for PM abuse, you now have a separate record for PM abuse. rolling all offenses up into one rolling ball does not make sense. this is a nice start, but i would like to toss this into the mix.-0

Yes, I agree. In fact, to further this, I suggest we make each separate offense have its own ladder. i.e.:

LIVE CHAT
Warning
Kick
24hr
etc…

FLAMING
Warning
24hr
etc…

and so on and so forth.

.44

I think most justice systems in the real world that I am at all familiar with do in fact roll all offences into one rolling ball. Repeated offenses usually result in harsher punishments. In Canada, we have the concept of the "dangerous offender". Repeated felony convictions and the expectation that the offender would likely be a danger to the community by continuing to repeat if released can lead to a designation as a dangerous offender who is imprisoned indefinitely without the possibility of parole. In some states of the USA, I believe there is a "three strikes" rule, where a third felony conviction has a mandatory life sentence with no parole for at least twenty-five years. Anyone can make a mistake and everyone who wants to do better deserves a second chance, but there has to be a limit. If one cannot control oneself, society should not have to put up with the offensive behaviour indefinitely. But these situations, where there is no faint hope of returning to society, are (or should be) rare.

In my mind, keeping separate records for, say, live chat offenses versus PM offenses would be like keeping separate records for breaking and entering houses versus breaking and entering businesses. For that matter, if you commit a few break-ins, then couple one with an assault, do you think a judge is likely to say, oh well, it's a first assault, so no big deal?

That being said, I do think that there is a case to be made for classifying offenses as misdemeanours or felonies. The offenders in the former class tend to cause only nuisances for people around them, and do not receive harsh or escalating penalties. Those in the latter class take something of considerable value from their victims, and rightfully receive harsher and escalating penalties. But even for them, there is usually a time-limited sentence, and the hope of parole.

So how would it break down on CC? As a first cut, I would say abusive remarks, whether they be in live chat, PMs or the fora would be misdemeanours (like noise bylaw offenses), whereas behaviours which interfere with the primary purpose of the site, playing the game on a level playing field, like secret diplomacy and multiple accounts would be felonies. It would take some serious discussion to classify all the punishable offenses on CC appropriately, but I think it can and should be done. Misdemeanours would then never lead to a permanent ban, but repeated felonies could.

Wicked attempted to destroy the site using insider knowledge and by passing on info to her followers to help her attempt at crippling the site. what she did is far beyond anything we are discussing within this thread. so, let's not use worse case scenarios or this could easily get off track.
...
-0

I am not familiar with the particulars of wicked's case, but taking this report at face value, I would have to say that this rises above a felony to the level of treason, and as such, would be deserving of an immediate harsh and perhaps permanent punishment.

[the.killing.44]

In my mind, keeping separate records for, say, live chat offenses versus PM offenses would be like keeping separate records for breaking and entering houses versus breaking and entering businesses. For that matter, if you commit a few break-ins, then couple one with an assault, do you think a judge is likely to say, oh well, it's a first assault, so no big deal?

But it's very different — in this case, quite contrary to the two examples you put forward, which are pretty much the same, those two different ways of communication are held to different standards and moderated as thus. When the actions are lumped together, the separation of how to moderate said actions is eradicated and there is now one standard way of punishment for the lump — permaban by the escalating scale.

So, I say, because each different part of CC's ways of interaction is different and moderated as thus, why should the punishments be any different? I mean, moderation comes from rules, and if the rules are case-specific why shouldn't the consequence handed out by the moderation (or administration) be a different case? The answer is because of the escalating system, which wouldn't be totally removed by my suggestion, but rather fine-tuned to suit the way the Community Guidelines deal with each area and the offenses in each area separated.

.44

[bjc23]

This is an interesting idea.

Yes, I'm sure there are many drawbacks to it, but here's a few pros.

1) Having a 6 month ban instead of a permanent ban will result in the creation of less multis. The only thing for those dangerous, heartless criminals can do is create another account. Most, I feel, will wait out their sentence and TRY to improve upon their behavior instead of just hopelessly making multi after multi to be a part of this community.

2) Moderators/admin will not have to deal with the constant uprisings and complaints from other users in response to their fallen friend.


Let's put it this way. I work at the local YMCA as a camp counselor (kind of like a day care, but held outside and we go on field trips...but that's beside the point). A lot of the kids there can have their moments of just outright terrible behavior. They can do anything under the sun: punching, screaming, running away from their counselor, swearing, threatening, damaging property, being disrespectful, and much, MUCH more. Based on the severity of the instances and how often/many they do in a certain time, the camper will receive different consequences to the behavior. Let's take a particular child of mine there as the subject. I could call him by his real name, but I'd rather not. So...on the FIRST day of camp, little Johnny goes up to Bobby and punched him in the shoulder and pushed him against the wall, bruising his elbow. He received a 1 day suspension from the camp. Johnny had no problems, other than complaining once in a while if the group was doing an activity that did not suit him. But other than that, he was fine. A couple weeks later, he was extremely disrespectful to staff and was written up again for his behavior. But wait! Unlike conquerclub's unjustifiable escalating rules of punishment, he actually wasn't suspended at all. He went backwards in punishment, in a way. A week later, little Johnny punched yet another kid in the arm. His punishment? One day suspension. The second striking of a child wasn't any worse than the first, his punishment remained the same.

Now, I understand in this case, that not only was he disciplined and punished by us at the Y, he too received the consequences at home. But each time, he was punished by his parents, so that aspect of the situation..that variable..is held constant.

What we do as counselors is also to try to correct this behavior by talking with the camper about it, to teach them why it is wrong, without being too disciplinary. Yes these are children, and we're dealing with teenagers/adults on this site (although some of the people on this site and the Y campers behave the same way...) the idea still is valid. Instead of being quick to discipline and the misbehaving fools of the site for simple shenanigans, why not let it fall into the flow of the dynamics of the site. See how the community handles and deals with it. Watch how the user responds to this. Only in extreme cases do I feel even a 1 day ban should be given out. It's obvious to weed out those whose only goal is to just piss everyone else off, break the rules on a consistent basis. Mods..admin...relax.

[bjc23]

First of all, I really like the idea of getting rid of the permanent ban all together. Maybe only use it if you are breaking the law being detrimental to the site. Or a multi.

In a totally different idea, if we're keeping the escalating punishment system...how about this:

Between each rung of the escalating system, have a one month period to give them a chance to move back down a rung? Say, I flamed owenshooter (I would love to let the fire burn...) 3 times already, and I have already received my warning, my 1 day ban, and my 3 day ban (I think that is the current way the system is set up). After the third time of letting owenshooter have it..I learned my lesson and let up b/c I know if I do it again, I will receive a larger sentence. I stop altogether, and after a month of not flaming owenshooter or anyone else for that matter, I get to move back down that rung so that say, a month and a week later, I couldn't help it and flamed my bud owen again. I would get a 3 day ban again since I moved back a rung instead of getting the next, much longer punishment.

But think about it, who really would wait an entire month just to break the very rule that got them to the rung they are at now? Okay..maybe some people would. How about 2 months? Who would wait an entire 2 months just to make a pointless flame that no one will remember? 3 months?

The time period that we put between each rung can be up for debate right now, I'm not sure what it should be.

But what do you guys think about this?

PS - owen, I can't wait to see how much you adore my ideas. So let's hear it.

[4myGod]

First of all, I really like the idea of getting rid of the permanent ban all together. Maybe only use it if you are breaking the law being detrimental to the site. Or a multi.

In a totally different idea, if we're keeping the escalating punishment system...how about this:

Between each rung of the escalating system, have a one month period to give them a chance to move back down a rung? Say, I flamed owenshooter (I would love to let the fire burn...) 3 times already, and I have already received my warning, my 1 day ban, and my 3 day ban (I think that is the current way the system is set up). After the third time of letting owenshooter have it..I learned my lesson and let up b/c I know if I do it again, I will receive a larger sentence. I stop altogether, and after a month of not flaming owenshooter or anyone else for that matter, I get to move back down that rung so that say, a month and a week later, I couldn't help it and flamed my bud owen again. I would get a 3 day ban again since I moved back a rung instead of getting the next, much longer punishment.

But think about it, who really would wait an entire month just to break the very rule that got them to the rung they are at now? Okay..maybe some people would. How about 2 months? Who would wait an entire 2 months just to make a pointless flame that no one will remember? 3 months?

The time period that we put between each rung can be up for debate right now, I'm not sure what it should be.

But what do you guys think about this?

PS - owen, I can't wait to see how much you adore my ideas. So let's hear it.

I agree there should be some sort of cooldown period where the marks against a person go down, or else someone who is here for a couple years is going to eventually get a permanent ban for sure. I am assuming they do this now, but on a case by case situation.

[sensfan]

I like this idea.

[4myGod]

Any words from a mod or admin?

no, of course not. "if we don't acknowledge it then it will go away"

[owenshooter]

Any words from a mod or admin?

no, of course not. "if we don't acknowledge it then it will go away"

i think you just got your response from the admins...-0

p.s.-our best hope is for andy to pull another "bigotry guidelines" move and open the dialogue...
or twill could come back...

[MeDeFe]

I totally agree with bjc, old offenses need to be prescibed after a certain time. It makes no sense whatsoever to factor in things that happened 2 years ago, and extremely little, if any, for offenses that are already a month or two old and practically forgotten. It would take a very weird kind of personality to maliciously and intentionally cause a disruption in the forums, then wait a month, and do it again.

[owenshooter]

I totally agree with bjc, old offenses need to be prescibed after a certain time. It makes no sense whatsoever to factor in things that happened 2 years ago, and extremely little, if any, for offenses that are already a month or two old and practically forgotten. It would take a very weird kind of personality to maliciously and intentionally cause a disruption in the forums, then wait a month, and do it again.

EXACTLY!!! rolling up all your offenses for all time on cc, makes zero sense. i was recently warned in LIVE CHAT that i would be tossed out, BY A MOD, due to my "history." i have never been tossed from live chat, warned in live chat or broken a rule in live chat. and yes, i frequent live chat. why did he warn me? because of "my history". what history of breaking rules in Live Chat do i have? what did i do exactly to deserve a pre-emptive warning in live chat? nothing. the games are separate from the forums. the forums are separate from live chat. i have never been warned for breaking rules in games, so by this logic should i be warned about that too, because i have had bans within the forums? this "CC RECORD" they lord over you as a constant threat is simply that, a constant threat. whenever i have been punished, i have accepted it, taken my time out, not created multis to skirt the rules and post, and come back refreshed and aware of the adjustments needed to be made on my end. so, i did my time, and i am STILL paying for the crimes?!! does not make sense. can't wait for an admin, PREFERABLY andy, to get in here and start a discourse about what can and can't work as a resolution to all the problems discussed in this thread. hopefully, he will bring along jpcloet to help out...-0

p.s.-i find it odd that members can break the FIRST RULE OF CC and buy back in for 25 bucks multiple times. but members that are banned for rules violations within the forums, that are truly minimal, are forever pariahs. which one hurst the site more? multis driving away members and potential freemiums OR regular posters that help create the forum community visited/used by 2-3% of all CC users?

[jiminski]

Any words from a mod or admin?

no, of course not. "if we don't acknowledge it then it will go away"

i think you just got your response from the admins...-0

p.s.-our best hope is for andy to pull another "bigotry guidelines" move and open the dialogue...
or twill could come back...

I am sure that Andy is only waiting to come and save the day once we have run out of venom Owen.... but does he feel he can stomach it? does he feel we deserve consideration after our ungrateful whinging!? Do we trust that our conciliatory input will not further imbue their universal mandate? .. and more important, do i actually care about any of this? .. and if so.. should i!?

Sadly it all goes back to flamewars for me, i can't shake it... nothing i say here is worth saying (even within vanities egotistical eye), as one day the site will simply delete it.. no input is worth the energy as it is at best illusory and at worst an annoyance to those who give their free-time for the site!

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Humbug!

[AndyDufresne]

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You make some good points, Ender. On Conquer Club, we do have a sense of "Felonies and Misdemeanours"---the Major/Severe Infractions are those that are usually the most hurtful with intent, while the Minor Infractions are more of the repeatedly annoying offenses. This is all listed in the Community Guidelines.

As for your last point, about Misdemeanours never leading to a Permanent Vacation, is something we can parse out further. I think there is still a need for a strong message for repeat Minor Infractions, so there would still have to some sort of upper disciplinary level (some talk earlier in the topic about 6 Months, perhaps that would be the ultimate upper level for Minor Infractions).

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This cool-down period, unfortunately, we had in our early years---and it lead to rampant inconsistencies that both angered the Community because of those inconsistencies, and in addition made a Team CC member's job more difficult because there was rarely ever any precedent. This eventually lead to the earlier mentioned "balling everything into one" I believe.


--Andy

[wcaclimbing]

I think there is still a need for a strong message for repeat Minor Infractions, so there would still have to some sort of upper disciplinary level (some talk earlier in the topic about 6 Months, perhaps that would be the ultimate upper level for Minor Infractions).

I think a 6-month ban would be an excellent option for the upper level of punishment for most rule-breakings (excluding multis, cheating, and all the other 'higher' crimes). And even if they don't change enough during that 6-month ban to change their ways, set up the system so any rule-breaking that occurs within a month of returning from the ban would result in another 6-month ban.

Sure, it might take a year or two for that person to change, but by then, they'd just have to wait till the end of their 6 months to be able to re-join the community once again. Under a permanent ban, that person could never have that chance. Even 10 years down the road, when the most prolific spammers have grown up, gotten married, and had kids, they still would be permanently barred from this site, even if they are much more mature and intelligent than they had been in the past.


Lets take the topic that seems to be all the rage this week on the forums, the banning of DM.
(note that I am not lobbying for reducing his ban, only detailing the 6-month ban in a relevant context)
Under the current system, a user such as DM would be permanently removed from the forums. No matter what happens within six months, a year, or even ten years, that user would never be allowed back into the community. Even if he has fully changed his ways and regrets what he has done, he would not have another chance.
If the maximum sentence was reduced to 6 months, it would leave the opportunity for DM to improve his ways and rejoin the community. If he messes up again, he earns another 6 month ban. Over time, he will either change his ways or get bored and leave the site. But if he does change his ways, he'll want a way to get back in and make up for what he had done in the past.

If the mods or admins in charge of controlling the 6-month bans feel that it would be a chore to keep track of all of this, think of it this way. All you do is watch the forums like you always do. If you see a user do something wrong and look at their list of infractions and see that they had a 6 month ban recently, you just have to click the 6 month ban button again.

Clicking the ban button once every six months isn't that big of a deal. And if that user doesn't do anything wrong, you will have no reason to hit the button.

[alex951]

i think cc needs the perm ban, but i also think that the 6 month ban is a good idea. You have to understand that the mods have to do a lot of stuff throughout the day and to have someone continuously brake the rules only makes their job of maintaining cc harder. The rules on cc or not hard to follow they are plain and simple.

[keiths31]

The business I own we use a "write up" system for staff discipline. Depending on the situation a "write up" is issued for an infraction. Three "write ups" result in a suspension. ie: three write ups in six months for being late results in a 2 week suspension, 3 write ups for a cash shortage results in a two week suspension. A "write up" has a life span of 6 months after which it cannot be used against you for suspension, but it is kept on file and can be used in terminating the employee. So if an employee was late in January, April and August they would not be suspended. But if they were late again in September, they would receive a two week suspension. Termination usually comes after 3 suspensions of the same offense. ie: suspended for being late 3 times results in termination, suspended for cash shortage three times results in termination, etc.
I doubt any of this is useful for what is transpiring here.

[F1fth]

I, too, would like to chime in my support for using a 6-month ban as the highest punishment for minor offenses. 6 months is a long time -- a hefty enough penalty to discourage any rule breaking, but short enough so that offenders won't consider the site a lost cause and may take steps to improve their behavior.

At worst, someone who is hell bent on being a bother and breaking minor rules and who would be repeatedly banned as a result can post twice a year. That's not very bothersome at all, so I doubt this rule would suffer from any abuse.

[AndyDufresne]

I'll check in on this topic again tomorrow when I'm back on shift. Be the discussion going, especially in regards to an upper limit of 6 months for Minor Infractions.

As for Discussion about "balling all same level infractions" up in one, that may be a topic for another topic.


--Andy

[StiffMittens]

Sorry if this is repetitious (I haven't had a chance to read through the whole thread), but It sounds like a probationary system is emerging in this discussion. I think that may be the right way to go. Here's a possible scheme:

Minor infractions begin with a formal warning. A second minor infraction results in a 24 hour forum ban after which, a one month probationary period begins. During that probationary period is when the escalation process works. another minor infraction results in the next level of ban (say 72 hour) and after that ban is up the one month probationary period starts again. This escalation process continues up to the maximum sentence of 6 months forum ban, and after each ban the one month probation begins again. If the user cannot make it through the final probation period without an infraction, then the minor infraction track gets escalated to a major infraction. If, however, the user makes it through any one month probationary period without another infraction their status "resets" and any subsequent infraction begins with a warning again.

[edit]On second thought, it should be reset to the post warning stage. That is, you get a formal warning the first time, but from then on you're on the system of ban-probation-possible escalation. Obviously there can always be a certain amount discretion left to the moderators, where an informal (or friendly) warning may suffice.[/edit]

Major infractions work the same except the escalation slope might be steeper and would culminate in perma-ban. Also, the probationary period after a major infraction is three months, so the offender has to keep their nose clean for longer in order to avoid further escalation.

[jefjef]

How about allowing premium players the right to vote in re of a perma ban (If not due to criminal issues). If the offender wins allow said person to stay. Then if they do not fly right then admin ban stands. Kinda a one last chance. After all we do pay to play for entertainment & enjoyment.