For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma

[MeDeFe]

How about dropping old offenses from the record after a certain period of time then? e.g. 6 months for minor and 12 for major. I don't think that would have to involve a lot of coding.


Also, about those behind the scenes guidelines?

[thegreekdog]

But back on topic, lets discuss Minor Infractions and 6 month Max Vacation and Major/Severe Infractions Perma Max Vacation.

Probation periods, in addition to whether or not to ball up offenses, are different beasts I think. Lets tackle those suggestion ideas in a different topic at a different time.

We'll work more efficiently with 1 single goal in mind at a time.


--Andy

I know we're not voting, but I'm absolutely in favor of a 6 month ban (or less) max for minor infractions.

[AndyDufresne]

How about dropping old offenses from the record after a certain period of time then? e.g. 6 months for minor and 12 for major. I don't think that would have to involve a lot of coding.


Also, about those behind the scenes guidelines?

I'm not sure about dropping old Infractions completely. A history should still be taken into account I think when a user makes an Infraction. But something like this, as opposed to the lengthy probationary period is something more feasible for both Lack and our Moderators I think. This may be worth pursuing in discussion at least.

As for Situation Guidelines, most of the definitions were taken from the Community Guidelines---where things are listed and spelled out. If things are unclear or need further explanation in the Community Guidelines, let us know and we can improve those.


--Andy

[squishyg]

I'm not sure about dropping old Infractions completely.

Not even after years have passed? I hope cc will be around long enough so that people can have their records expunged after years of good behavior. Some of our beloved and not so beloved offenders are minors after all. I'm all for holding young people (as well as older people) to high standards, but a certain amount of immaturity is to be expected from people who are immature. If a 14 year old is being an ass and gets in trouble for that, shouldn't we perhaps forget about those youthful indiscretions once a couple of years have gone by?

[AndyDufresne]

I said I'm not sure. Perhaps there are some arguments that can sway me a certain direction.


--Andy

[clapper011]

But back on topic, lets discuss Minor Infractions and 6 month Max Vacation and Major/Severe Infractions Perma Max Vacation.

Probation periods, in addition to whether or not to ball up offenses, are different beasts I think. Lets tackle those suggestion ideas in a different topic at a different time.

We'll work more efficiently with 1 single goal in mind at a time.


--Andy

I know we're not voting, but I'm absolutely in favor of a 6 month ban (or less) max for minor infractions.

that may be a good idea, but what happens when the abuser (so to speak) can not control themselves..when does it then become more then a "minor" infraction? When would the line then be drawn?

[F1fth]

I think Stiff suggested that if you're maxed on the ladder of punishment, subsequent punishments might be considered major infractions.

I have a slight variation on this idea: that subsequent punishments don't count on the major infraction list, but escalate it -- meaning if someone was being quite an annoyance, they would raise their punishment on the major infraction ladder, and when they do slip up big time (i.e. commit a major infraction) it'll be more severe for them because of it.

Also, I'd like to add that even with only the 6 month maximum ban, the person could only really bother us twice a year at most. That's not a terrible worst case scenario, in my opinion.

[Woodruff]

How about dropping old offenses from the record after a certain period of time then? e.g. 6 months for minor and 12 for major. I don't think that would have to involve a lot of coding.


Also, about those behind the scenes guidelines?

I'm not sure about dropping old Infractions completely. A history should still be taken into account I think when a user makes an Infraction. But something like this, as opposed to the lengthy probationary period is something more feasible for both Lack and our Moderators I think. This may be worth pursuing in discussion at least.

For my part, as you probably know, I've been wholeheartedly in support of keeping track of previous offenses, as I find them very relevant. In fact, I'm probably one of the most vocal on that count.

However, I would also say that, IF THERE IS NO REPEATED BAD BEHAVIOR, this seems perfectly reasonable. After all, if the user has gone 6 months without another infraction, it seems pretty reasonable to dispense with that previous offense. However, if there are repeats within the 6 months, then it wouldn't disappear until that NEXT 6 month timeframe expired.

Also, I'd like to add that even with only the 6 month maximum ban, the person could only really bother us twice a year at most. That's not a terrible worst case scenario, in my opinion.

Agreed, provided the admins still have the authority (without having to hear all the whining, I mean!) to permaban when it is appropriate (wicked, for example).

[squishyg]

what happens when the abuser (so to speak) can not control themselves..when does it then become more then a "minor" infraction? When would the line then be drawn?

I don't think it's possible or reasonable to anticipate all infractions and suitable punishments. At a certain (and perhaps undefined) point, a player may cross the line and severe punishment may be called for. Perhaps we need a couple of mods (forgive me if this already exists) who are in charge of hearing out a player and laying out their punishment. It may be the case that some cases have to be judged on a, well, case by case basis, rather than on a fixed set of parameters.

[Frigidus]

But back on topic, lets discuss Minor Infractions and 6 month Max Vacation and Major/Severe Infractions Perma Max Vacation.

Probation periods, in addition to whether or not to ball up offenses, are different beasts I think. Lets tackle those suggestion ideas in a different topic at a different time.

We'll work more efficiently with 1 single goal in mind at a time.


--Andy

I know we're not voting, but I'm absolutely in favor of a 6 month ban (or less) max for minor infractions.

that may be a good idea, but what happens when the abuser (so to speak) can not control themselves..when does it then become more then a "minor" infraction? When would the line then be drawn?

You have to look at things case by case. Although there are situations in which a permaban is appropriate, they are rare and extreme.

[MeDeFe]

How about dropping old offenses from the record after a certain period of time then? e.g. 6 months for minor and 12 for major. I don't think that would have to involve a lot of coding.

I'm not sure about dropping old Infractions completely. A history should still be taken into account I think when a user makes an Infraction. But something like this, as opposed to the lengthy probationary period is something more feasible for both Lack and our Moderators I think. This may be worth pursuing in discussion at least.

I meant "dropping" as in "do not count against the length of a ban any more", if they're to be filed for statistical purposes or just for people to go "Oh man, look at this from 2 years ago, those were the times", sure. Basically only the more recent history would be taken into account when issuing warnings/bans. Unlike Woodruff, however, I would drop offenses that are older than 6 months even if there are newer infractions on the record, otherwise it becomes a probationary period, which you said takes coding.


F1fth, by allowing for transitions between ladders of minor and major infractions there's a risk of a first minor offense leading to a longer ban than intended by the system, or for a slip-up that constitutes a major offense to result in a very long ban or even a permaban when no offense was intended. Even under your proposed system an unintended slip-up could result in a permaban, I don't find that a desireable situation. I think it's best to keep the two separate, as I said, one ladder for a few grave major offenses, and a second ladder for minor offenses (which includes every offense not major), neither of which counts against the other.

[Woodruff]

How about dropping old offenses from the record after a certain period of time then? e.g. 6 months for minor and 12 for major. I don't think that would have to involve a lot of coding.

I'm not sure about dropping old Infractions completely. A history should still be taken into account I think when a user makes an Infraction. But something like this, as opposed to the lengthy probationary period is something more feasible for both Lack and our Moderators I think. This may be worth pursuing in discussion at least.

I meant "dropping" as in "do not count against the length of a ban any more", if they're to be filed for statistical purposes or just for people to go "Oh man, look at this from 2 years ago, those were the times", sure. Basically only the more recent history would be taken into account when issuing warnings/bans. Unlike Woodruff, however, I would drop offenses that are older than 6 months even if there are newer infractions on the record, otherwise it becomes a probationary period, which you said takes coding.

But then wouldn't that allow folks to be consistently problems without ever reaching the serious punishment level? For instance, if someone creates a problem serious enough for moderator action every...say...month and a half...then they'd never hit the 1 month ban level (never mind the 6 month). But every month and a half is often enough to still be a pretty big annoyance, even if it falls under the "minor annoyance" level of stuff. That seems like it would be too easy to circumvent to me.

[squishyg]

if someone creates a problem serious enough for moderator action every...say...month and a half...then they'd never hit the 1 month ban level (never mind the 6 month). But every month and a half is often enough to still be a pretty big annoyance, even if it falls under the "minor annoyance" level of stuff. That seems like it would be too easy to circumvent to me.

Very true, someone who is consistently doing that should be evaluated differently. Another reason to evaluate people on a case by case basis.

[F1fth]

F1fth, by allowing for transitions between ladders of minor and major infractions there's a risk of a first minor offense leading to a longer ban than intended by the system, or for a slip-up that constitutes a major offense to result in a very long ban or even a permaban when no offense was intended. Even under your proposed system an unintended slip-up could result in a permaban, I don't find that a desireable situation. I think it's best to keep the two separate, as I said, one ladder for a few grave major offenses, and a second ladder for minor offenses (which includes every offense not major), neither of which counts against the other.

Yeah, that's going by the first thing I suggested (minor infractions after maxing the minor ladder lead to a punishment on the major) and you're right that it probably would just lead to the same problems we have now.

But the second was actually a little different. I didn't do a very good job of explaining, so let me try again: Basically, minor infractions after you've maxed the minor ladder (i.e. done 5+ things wrong in a relatively short period of time), your punishment on the major ladder would escalate, but you would never receive the punishment for it from a minor infraction. But when you mess up big time and commit a major infraction, you start out with a harsher penalty. So basically, by committing minor offense one can never be permabanned, but they can make it likelier that it happens when they do something wrong that would actually warrant a serious punishment. Does that make more sense?

[StiffMittens]

But back on topic, lets discuss Minor Infractions and 6 month Max Vacation and Major/Severe Infractions Perma Max Vacation.

Probation periods, in addition to whether or not to ball up offenses, are different beasts I think. Lets tackle those suggestion ideas in a different topic at a different time.

We'll work more efficiently with 1 single goal in mind at a time.


--Andy

I know we're not voting, but I'm absolutely in favor of a 6 month ban (or less) max for minor infractions.

that may be a good idea, but what happens when the abuser (so to speak) can not control themselves..when does it then become more then a "minor" infraction? When would the line then be drawn?

the scheme I proposed addresses this:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=91722&start=45#p2115340

[bjc23]

I have one suggestion for StiffMitten's draft: instead of resetting the ladder after the probationary period, I think the penalty should only decline a level. Otherwise, trolls could just go crazy once every month and never get more than a warning.

But do you really think they are just going to wait out their month to do a little trolling? B/c with a couple clicks, BAM...no trolling for another month. I really don't think the trolls will actually care that munch to go back to their trolling for a couple hours again...

[StiffMittens]

I said I'm not sure. Perhaps there are some arguments that can sway me a certain direction.


--Andy

It need not be that old infractions are totally purged from the system. They could still be recorded but not have any direct affect on ban escalation. In this way past "dead" infractions could be a factor in deciding particular cases where a history of certain behaviors is relevant. But this would also add a certain additional complexity to the system which, as you point out, translates to more coding work (and it sounds like you're really trying to minimize that). On the other hand, perhaps there are some people within the community who have the technical expertise and the time to volunteer to take on some of these tasks on a temporary basis.

[bjc23]

This is probably going to be considered a different suggestion, then, too, but what of erasing "points" after a period of decent behavior.

I mean, theoretically, under the current rules, someone could be a near jerk in their first 2 months, learn their lesson, then goof 2 years later and be banned.

Will produce more multis.

[StiffMittens]

I have one suggestion for StiffMitten's draft: instead of resetting the ladder after the probationary period, I think the penalty should only decline a level. Otherwise, trolls could just go crazy once every month and never get more than a warning.

But do you really think they are just going to wait out their month to do a little trolling. B/c with couple clicks, BAM...no trolling for another month. I really don't think the trolls will actually care that munch to go back to their trolling for a couple hours again...

Some people might simply wait out the probation and return to their old tricks, but many people won't. This is why there will sometimes be a need for the history of a user to be available for consideration. This is also why the powers that be will probably not be convinced that DM should be reinstated (although he should ). But as long as it is clearly indicated exactly how and under what circumstances a user's "permanent" record may be used, both users and mods will understand the stakes better and (hopefully) act accordingly.

[4myGod]

I don't know how you currently keep records of users previous infractions. However I noticed Andy mentioned that it's too much coding to have probational periods, however many people are still assuming this is part of the deal, as I think it should be.

So I want to clarify where I think we are at:

The minor infraction escalation scale can go no higher than 6 months. There are no such things as special cases, If someone does something that is so bad it deserves perma-ban then the rule should already be listed in major infractions, therefor the users max punishment WILL BE perma ban.

I recommend that for every 3 months the user does not repeat an offense it goes down a level. So if he gets a warning and 3 months later repeats that offense it will be a warning again, because he went back one for going 3 months without any repeated offenses.

This way if someone gets himself up to a 6month ban and comes back, he has to wait 3 months before he can go down just 1 level, so he would technically have to be a good boy for quite a while before he is pretty safe from bans.

Perhaps the length of time before it goes down 1 level can be discussed, as well whether 6month ban should be the max, or perhaps 3...

This wouldn't take a lot of work. When you find someone who did something wrong you simply look at his record, if you see that over 3 months ago he got a Warning then you know he will just be getting a warning this time.

[MeDeFe]

But the second was actually a little different. I didn't do a very good job of explaining, so let me try again: Basically, minor infractions after you've maxed the minor ladder (i.e. done 5+ things wrong in a relatively short period of time), your punishment on the major ladder would escalate, but you would never receive the punishment for it from a minor infraction. But when you mess up big time and commit a major infraction, you start out with a harsher penalty. So basically, by committing minor offense one can never be permabanned, but they can make it likelier that it happens when they do something wrong that would actually warrant a serious punishment. Does that make more sense?

This is exactly what I criticized: one unintended slip-up could lead to a permanent ban. Even with major infractions like racism and bigotry people may simply not be aware that what they're saying/the sigs or avatars they are displaying could be seen as racism or bigotry. It has happened before and could probably happen again just as easily.

I don't know how you currently keep records of users previous infractions. However I noticed Andy mentioned that it's too much coding to have probational periods, however many people are still assuming this is part of the deal, as I think it should be.

So I want to clarify where I think we are at:

The minor infraction escalation scale can go no higher than 6 months. There are no such things as special cases, If someone does something that is so bad it deserves perma-ban then the rule should already be listed in major infractions, therefor the users max punishment WILL BE perma ban.

I recommend that for every 3 months the user does not repeat an offense it goes down a level. So if he gets a warning and 3 months later repeats that offense it will be a warning again, because he went back one for going 3 months without any repeated offenses.

This way if someone gets himself up to a 6month ban and comes back, he has to wait 3 months before he can go down just 1 level, so he would technically have to be a good boy for quite a while before he is pretty safe from bans.

Perhaps the length of time before it goes down 1 level can be discussed, as well whether 6month ban should be the max, or perhaps 3...

This wouldn't take a lot of work. When you find someone who did something wrong you simply look at his record, if you see that over 3 months ago he got a Warning then you know he will just be getting a warning this time.

The part of your post I put in bold is a description of a probationary period, which Andy said might be too labour-intensive to code. The alternative is to only factor in offenses from the last 6 or 12 months (length of time up for debate) when deciding on the length of a ban. That way there's no probationary period (although, in all honesty, how hard is it to get a list of official warnings/bans for a member with the date when they were issued next to each (possibly with a "punishment level" (0 for warning, 6 for 6-month ban)) and check how old the newest is? If it's less than the set time of the probationary period, issue a sentence of "last sentence +1"), and lack can instead spend his time coding fancy features for the game.



edited one sentence for clarity

[Snorri1234]

This is probably going to be considered a different suggestion, then, too, but what of erasing "points" after a period of decent behavior.

I mean, theoretically, under the current rules, someone could be a near jerk in their first 2 months, learn their lesson, then goof 2 years later and be banned.

Will produce more multis.

How will that produce more multis?

[wcaclimbing]

This is probably going to be considered a different suggestion, then, too, but what of erasing "points" after a period of decent behavior.

I mean, theoretically, under the current rules, someone could be a near jerk in their first 2 months, learn their lesson, then goof 2 years later and be banned.

Will produce more multis.

How will that produce more multis?

maybe bjc was talking about the second part of Player's post. The part about a player being banned two years later.
He's probably saying that the permaban causes people to make more multis.

Probably could have chosen a better post to quote, though.

[PLAYER57832]

I have one suggestion for StiffMitten's draft: instead of resetting the ladder after the probationary period, I think the penalty should only decline a level. Otherwise, trolls could just go crazy once every month and never get more than a warning.

But do you really think they are just going to wait out their month to do a little trolling? B/c with a couple clicks, BAM...no trolling for another month. I really don't think the trolls will actually care that munch to go back to their trolling for a couple hours again...

This gets to something I have thought. Discipline for forum abuses and things like point dumping need to have differing penalties. I don't really think DM as all that worried about points. Nor were his infractions (to my knowledge) anything to do with playing, just as an example. On the other side, you have folks who never peeked in the forums, but have point-dumped, etc.

IN some cases (Klobber comes to mind), folks may abuse all sides, but those can be dealt with as what they are -- combined cases.

[AndyDufresne]

This gets to something I have thought. Discipline for forum abuses and things like point dumping need to have differing penalties. I don't really think DM as all that worried about points. Nor were his infractions (to my knowledge) anything to do with playing, just as an example. On the other side, you have folks who never peeked in the forums, but have point-dumped, etc.

IN some cases (Klobber comes to mind), folks may abuse all sides, but those can be dealt with as what they are -- combined cases.

If you look at the Community Guidelines, we essentially already have this. Most of the Forum/Chat abuses fall under Minor Infractions. Most of the Gaming abuses fall under Major/Severe Infractions.

=========================================


Hm, lets see what we've got so far:

Option 1

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would remain unchanged:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, Permanent
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent
(Keep in mind, these levels don't just include Forums, but Live Chat as well as gaming on the website as well).

This is the system we have currently.

Option 2

1
For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months, Permanent
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Option 3

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

We'd keep with the general current system we have no---no probationary periods, etc.

If a user comes back after a 6 Month Vacation, if their next Infraction was a Minor Infraction they would be hit with another 6 Month Vacation, no matter the period of time elapsed from the last Vacation. If their next Infraction was instead a Major/Severe Infraction, it'd probably lead to a Permanent Vacation.

Option 4

For Minor Infractions, the Disciplinary levels would be as follows:
Warning, 24 Hours, 72 Hours, 1 Week, 1 Month, 6 Months
Major/Severe Infractions would remain unchanged:
Warning, 1 Month, Permanent

Upon a user coming back after a 6 Month Vacation, if they go 6 months without a Minor or Major/Severe Infraction, their Disciplinary level could be bumped down to 1 Month for their next Minor Infraction. Should they then after those 6 months, have a Minor Infraction, they would get a 1 Month Vacation, and upon their return from the 1 Month Vacation, their next Minor Infraction would lead them to a 6 Month Vacation.

Then there are the even more radical schemes of sweeping rollbacks, but I don't think we can entertain any of those ideas at the current time.

Option 1 seems to have some current opposition, Option 2 is one proposed middle ground Option 3 is also a proposed middle ground, Option 4 is another proposed middle ground.

I think Option 4, however, may be getting to the point of making things too difficult or complex for a World Domination based gaming website.


--Andy