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Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

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What do you think of "Esca-Lite"

 
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Georgerx7di on Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:24 pm

stahrgazer wrote:
Robinette wrote:Anyway, i just thought i'd try to get a sense for what you all thought before considering if an official suggestion should be made of it...


Flat rate isn't a consistent 8, so your numbers are off; you may say that's an average, but you can't count on an average in any specific game.

However, for the suggestion itself: as an option, why not?



The average is 7 btw, not 8.

Robinette wrote:
Georgerx7di wrote:I hate it.

Furthermore, there is strategy in escalating games as im sure you know robin.

Well of course... there is strategy in all of the game formats... this would just be something different...


Georgerx7di wrote:Flat rate is just for when your board, or want more luck in your dubs games. Esca-lite would play like flat rate build games with std. 6 player settings. You must realize that the reason you can take someone out is that when you cash your cashing 25 more than the guy who cashed first from the group, whatever the round may be. If we all have 60 armies, and I cash for 18, 5 cashes later you're cashing for 23, you still can't take me out. It would just be another build game. And I don't think build games test your strategy, they just test who feels like playing longer.

aww george... you disappoint me... the early rounds would be more likely to have many skirmishes which would hold those #'s down a bit as players go for continents... you're only seeing this through escalating tinted glasses, where continent bonuses mean nothing, and blocking rules :P (i just had to throw that in, hehehe).. i take it you've never played the board game this way, y'know, there is a reason the rules called this a variation for Risk experts... give it another look, but with an open mind. 8-[


Robin, I could be wrong (not likely though). Here's the thing. There has to be an incentive to take someone out. If your playing flat rate and everyone has 300 armies, there's no reason to take someone out, except to end the game. What I mean is, if I waste 275 armies killing your 300 armies, it reduces my chances of winning. So the only way to end a flat rate singles game is to make a bad move (move that reduces your chances of winning is what I define as a bad move for those of you who are going to argue this point).

With these steps in card levels, the turn in rate will never even catch up to half the armies your opponent has. The only counter to this would be if they let you hold more cards and turn in 2 or 3 sets at once. Perhaps an option to go with this. Please think about the math in this before you shoot down what I'm trying to say.

By the time the cash gets to 64 (64 makes the math easier than 60), 60 sets will have been turned in. Lets say you cash first and more or less follow the order. That's 4+10+16... Each person will have cashed 10 sets. Meaning each person should have picked up (doing this off the top of my head) somewhere between about 630 and 690 armies obtained just from the cards you cashed. And about 35 rounds will have past. Now there's no way that cashing at 60 at this point will be enough to make it worth your while to take someone out.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby notyou2 on Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:32 pm

Robinette wrote:
finchboy wrote:I like it a lot, escalating is great but it makes the bonuses on maps fairly redundant pretty quickly, just think of all those poor dears in the foundry! "All they want is corners and narrow routes I tell you!"

It needs a better name however.

F


without hyphen? Escalite

with an -ing? Escaliting? Escalighting?

all together different? Graduated? Progressive? Ascending? Developing?


It needs a Homer name....perhaps escamalation
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby notyou2 on Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:34 pm

...or maybe....discomboobulated
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Robinette on Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:04 pm

notyou2 wrote:It needs a Homer name....perhaps escamalation

...or maybe....discomboobulated


=D> :lol: =D> :lol:

or even... escanboobulated
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby RedBaron0 on Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:14 pm

Would make an interesting addition, I agree. In which case a larger amount of options could eventually be implimented:
Gradual Escalating - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...
Classic Escalating - 4,6,8,10,12,15,20,25...
Exponential Escalating - 2,4,8,16,32,64,128... :shock:
Mega Escalating - 20,40,60,80,100,120,150,200...
Deescalating - 25,20,15,12,10,8,6,4,2,0...

Of course some of these are purely speculative, and more likely not feasible, but interesting! ;)
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Robinette on Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:38 pm

Georgerx7di wrote:Robin, I could be wrong (not likely though). Here's the thing. There has to be an incentive to take someone out. If your playing flat rate and everyone has 300 armies, there's no reason to take someone out, except to end the game. What I mean is, if I waste 275 armies killing your 300 armies, it reduces my chances of winning. So the only way to end a flat rate singles game is to make a bad move (move that reduces your chances of winning is what I define as a bad move for those of you who are going to argue this point).

With these steps in card levels, the turn in rate will never even catch up to half the armies your opponent has. The only counter to this would be if they let you hold more cards and turn in 2 or 3 sets at once. Perhaps an option to go with this. Please think about the math in this before you shoot down what I'm trying to say.

By the time the cash gets to 64 (64 makes the math easier than 60), 60 sets will have been turned in. Lets say you cash first and more or less follow the order. That's 4+10+16... Each person will have cashed 10 sets. Meaning each person should have picked up (doing this off the top of my head) somewhere between about 630 and 690 armies obtained just from the cards you cashed. And about 35 rounds will have past. Now there's no way that cashing at 60 at this point will be enough to make it worth your while to take someone out.



The problem George, is you're still seeing this thru escalating eyes...
and this is something entirely different...

You are absolutley correct to say that you won't have incentive to cash, assuming that your intent is to run the board in one giant cascading event... which, bytheway, is precisely what non escalating players hate so much about escalating games...

the entire point of this Esca-lite is to bridge the extreme gap between escalators and flat/no cards... Simply put, this will require a different strategy, with different tactics.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby stahrgazer on Sun Sep 06, 2009 10:40 pm

RedBaron0 wrote:Would make an interesting addition, I agree. In which case a larger amount of options could eventually be implimented:
Gradual Escalating - 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10...
Classic Escalating - 4,6,8,10,12,15,20,25...
Exponential Escalating - 2,4,8,16,32,64,128... :shock:
Mega Escalating - 20,40,60,80,100,120,150,200...
Deescalating - 25,20,15,12,10,8,6,4,2,0...

Of course some of these are purely speculative, and more likely not feasible, but interesting! ;)



Or, just make the Esca-lite jump by 2's instead of 1's.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Mr Changsha on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:55 am

Robinette wrote:
Georgerx7di wrote:Robin, I could be wrong (not likely though). Here's the thing. There has to be an incentive to take someone out. If your playing flat rate and everyone has 300 armies, there's no reason to take someone out, except to end the game. What I mean is, if I waste 275 armies killing your 300 armies, it reduces my chances of winning. So the only way to end a flat rate singles game is to make a bad move (move that reduces your chances of winning is what I define as a bad move for those of you who are going to argue this point).

With these steps in card levels, the turn in rate will never even catch up to half the armies your opponent has. The only counter to this would be if they let you hold more cards and turn in 2 or 3 sets at once. Perhaps an option to go with this. Please think about the math in this before you shoot down what I'm trying to say.

By the time the cash gets to 64 (64 makes the math easier than 60), 60 sets will have been turned in. Lets say you cash first and more or less follow the order. That's 4+10+16... Each person will have cashed 10 sets. Meaning each person should have picked up (doing this off the top of my head) somewhere between about 630 and 690 armies obtained just from the cards you cashed. And about 35 rounds will have past. Now there's no way that cashing at 60 at this point will be enough to make it worth your while to take someone out.



The problem George, is you're still seeing this thru escalating eyes...
and this is something entirely different...

You are absolutley correct to say that you won't have incentive to cash, assuming that your intent is to run the board in one giant cascading event... which, bytheway, is precisely what non escalating players hate so much about escalating games...

the entire point of this Esca-lite is to bridge the extreme gap between escalators and flat/no cards... Simply put, this will require a different strategy, with different tactics.


Robinette is certainly right that non-escalating players see the 'one giant cascading event' as an absolutely horrible way to finish a game.

However, I also agree with George, in that a well-played 6 man 2.1 esc.-lite game might well still continue to build up stupidly. But then again, the continuous increases MIGHT keep the game open...and as a player who has given up no cards/flat rate singles (apart from speed noobing) I would love to see if esc.-lite would allow me to get back into casual flat rate/no cards games against other standard flat specialists.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby jammyjames on Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:21 am

Esca-lite needs to be played, really good idea robinette, well done.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Georgerx7di on Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:25 am

Robinette wrote:
Georgerx7di wrote:Robin, I could be wrong (not likely though). Here's the thing. There has to be an incentive to take someone out. If your playing flat rate and everyone has 300 armies, there's no reason to take someone out, except to end the game. What I mean is, if I waste 275 armies killing your 300 armies, it reduces my chances of winning. So the only way to end a flat rate singles game is to make a bad move (move that reduces your chances of winning is what I define as a bad move for those of you who are going to argue this point).

With these steps in card levels, the turn in rate will never even catch up to half the armies your opponent has. The only counter to this would be if they let you hold more cards and turn in 2 or 3 sets at once. Perhaps an option to go with this. Please think about the math in this before you shoot down what I'm trying to say.

By the time the cash gets to 64 (64 makes the math easier than 60), 60 sets will have been turned in. Lets say you cash first and more or less follow the order. That's 4+10+16... Each person will have cashed 10 sets. Meaning each person should have picked up (doing this off the top of my head) somewhere between about 630 and 690 armies obtained just from the cards you cashed. And about 35 rounds will have past. Now there's no way that cashing at 60 at this point will be enough to make it worth your while to take someone out.



The problem George, is you're still seeing this thru escalating eyes...
and this is something entirely different...

You are absolutley correct to say that you won't have incentive to cash, assuming that your intent is to run the board in one giant cascading event... which, bytheway, is precisely what non escalating players hate so much about escalating games...

the entire point of this Esca-lite is to bridge the extreme gap between escalators and flat/no cards... Simply put, this will require a different strategy, with different tactics.



Very well, I have said my peace. One correction though, I said that there will be no incentive to take out your opponent. [highlighted above]. Anyway, I could be wrong. Could consider going up by 2's though, instead of 1's.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Scott-Land on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:01 pm

Yup I agree George-- this 'new' style will only increase stalemates. With the larger maps, at the current escalating values, the kills are borderline as it is @ 100 cash. Simple solution Robin-- try playing larger maps if you want to decrease the value of second and third cashes. And yes, that would mean you'd have to play more than just Classic Art. ;)
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby 72o on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:22 pm

I still think if you make the escalating individual to each player instead of this esca-lite proposal, you keep the incentive to take others out, but you avoid the stalemate situation because at some point one player will be able to "steamroll" the board like escalating today. It will just take much longer, and will be more strategic than today's escalating, where I know that I have won several times after being behind in the game simply because the person in front of me either made a stupid play or got bad dice trying to take someone out.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby finchboy on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:40 pm

notyou2 wrote:
Robinette wrote:
finchboy wrote:I like it a lot, escalating is great but it makes the bonuses on maps fairly redundant pretty quickly, just think of all those poor dears in the foundry! "All they want is corners and narrow routes I tell you!"

It needs a better name however.

F


without hyphen? Escalite

with an -ing? Escaliting? Escalighting?

all together different? Graduated? Progressive? Ascending? Developing?


It needs a Homer name....perhaps escamalation


Something descriptive, but different enough from "escalating" so a newb (yes with a "w") can tell the difference. Progressive or graduated work. The poll's looking good, do you still plan to write it up in sugs&bugs?

F
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby the.killing.44 on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:43 pm

Scott-Land wrote:Yup I agree George-- this 'new' style will only increase stalemates. With the larger maps, at the current escalating values, the kills are borderline as it is @ 100 cash. Simple solution Robin-- try playing larger maps if you want to decrease the value of second and third cashes. And yes, that would mean you'd have to play more than just Classic Art. ;)

But you're still looking at it wrong: Robinette isn't saying this is going to be a new escalating (though that may be the very problem—the name suggests that), but rather it becomes more of a flat rate-no spoils mix. And in that respect the idea is great.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Georgerx7di on Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:18 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Yup I agree George-- this 'new' style will only increase stalemates. With the larger maps, at the current escalating values, the kills are borderline as it is @ 100 cash. Simple solution Robin-- try playing larger maps if you want to decrease the value of second and third cashes. And yes, that would mean you'd have to play more than just Classic Art. ;)

But you're still looking at it wrong: Robinette isn't saying this is going to be a new escalating (though that may be the very problem—the name suggests that), but rather it becomes more of a flat rate-no spoils mix. And in that respect the idea is great.


And your still looking at it the other way. The idea is only great if the game doesn't last 300 rounds. For that to happen there has to be value in taking out your opponents. Only in escalating is it a smart move to kill your opponents (barring bad moves from the guy before you etc). In flat, no cards, or escalite, with all players making the smartest move every turn, the game should go on forever.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby captainwalrus on Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:58 pm

Yes, but how often do you see a game where no one make a mistake? You say that with no spoils it should go on forever, but it never seems to be that much of a problem.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Scott-Land on Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:32 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:
Scott-Land wrote:Yup I agree George-- this 'new' style will only increase stalemates. With the larger maps, at the current escalating values, the kills are borderline as it is @ 100 cash. Simple solution Robin-- try playing larger maps if you want to decrease the value of second and third cashes. And yes, that would mean you'd have to play more than just Classic Art. ;)

But you're still looking at it wrong: Robinette isn't saying this is going to be a new escalating (though that may be the very problem—the name suggests that), but rather it becomes more of a flat rate-no spoils mix. And in that respect the idea is great.


Still looking at it wrong would apply that I've looked at it before.... that's not the case -- just read briefly and assumed it was referring to escalating. New game style isn't an issue for me, I can choose to play or not. Most likely the latter considering it involves flat rate.
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby happy2seeyou on Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:09 am

I'm surprised that Sully has not posted statistics about this yet. I'm expecting a full report. :D
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Re: Esca-Lite ... refreshingly different

Postby Blitzaholic on Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:21 pm

Esca +2's


I would be ok with 1st cash 4, then 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, etc. by 2's
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