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Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:29 pm

I've seen a number of threads related to accusations of point dumping, so I thought I'd do some calculations to figure out how easy it is to get down to a score of 1 point.

Basic Assumptions
To make the math easier, assume that the score of the winning player in every game is P. Obviously a point dumper will be unable to lose every game against a person with a constant score of P, and even if P is the average score of all the winners the numbers are a bit off. But this works well enough to first order.

The Equation
Let the score at the beginning of an N-game losing streak be S0. Sn is the score after N games. Assume that S0 <= 5*P so that the point loss will always be less than 100 points. Thus, every time you lose a game, you lose 20*(S/P) points. In other words,
S1 = S0 - 20*(S0/P) = S0 * (1 - 20/P)
S2 = S1 * (1 - 20/P) = S0 * (1 - 20/P)^2
Sn = S0 * (1 - 20/P)^N

Results
Now we can put in some numbers and reach some conclusions. Suppose a person has 1000 points and wants to get down to 1 point. Also suppose he manages to lose primarily to players with a score of very close to 1000. How many consecutive losses will it take?
(1/1000) = (1 - 20/1000)^N
ln(0.001) = N * ln(0.98)
N = 342 games.
In other words, a new recruit playing primarily against other new recruits would have to lose 342 straight games to get down to 1 point!

Same situation, but now he just wants to get down to 200 points so that when he plays against other people with scores of around 1000 he gets maximum points.
N = ln(0.2) / ln(0.98) = 80 games.

The following graph illustrates how many consecutive games one has to lose to drop one's score from 1000 to the given value (assuming his losses are to people with 1000 points):
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As an additional curiosity, suppose that our illicit point dumper is trying to get down from 1000 points to 1 point once again. But somewhere around the 80 game mark (when he has 200 points), he accidentally wins one, bumping him back up to 300 points. How far back has he set himself?
To from from a score of 300 down to 1 takes 283 games. On top of the 81 games he's already played, that makes for a total of 363 losses plus the one accidental victory in the middle. That one victory set him back by 21 games.

Rounding Errors
There is one potential flaw in these calculations. At some point, the points lost in a game drops below 1. I'm really not sure how the algorithm on the board handles that situation. My calculations have assumed that your score is stored as a floating point number rather than an integer and that the points exchanged in a loss can be less than 1. Also, if you always lose an integer number of points, then your score will drop a lot faster if the equations say you should lose 1.55 points and you actually lose 2. What is the score threshold for this to introduce errors if the board algorithm is different from these assumptions?
20*(S/P) < 1
S < P/20
So if your score drops below 50 points (and you're still losing to players with 1000 points), the equations have you losing less than 1 point per game. If you always lose a minimum of 1 point with every loss, that means it will actually take only 49 losses to get from 50 down to 1 as opposed to the 194 losses the equations predict.

Conclusions
I know all of this is probably more math than anyone wants to see on a game site. Still, I've seen suggestions about introducing a different point minimum. I don't know that this math can help with developing a conclusion on that front. However, it does provide some reasonable levels for specific thresholds:
  • It takes about 35 losses to get below 500 points. That type of record would be frustrating to a new player but is conceivable.
  • After another 35 losses he'll drop below 250 points. I would suggest that players that reach a point level somewhere between 250 and 500 should receive some sort of offer of assistance, whether it be encouragement to check out the Society of Cooks or an offer to play team games with a higher ranking partner to help them figure out what they're doing wrong.
  • On the other hand, getting your score down below 100 takes 114 straight losses (starting from a score of 1000), and I think this is a reasonable threshold to trigger an automatic investigation into point dumping. I'm not suggesting banning people that end up with scores that low, I just think they warrant some additional checking to make sure their low score is actually deserved.
Last edited by Doc_Brown on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Lucarilover240 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:37 pm

You lost me at about the fourth line of your post.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:53 pm

Lucarilover240 wrote:You lost me at about the fourth line of your post.

This happens sometimes.

Doc_Brown, you may get more responses, if you Outline/Provide Major points in a bullet. You know how people like easily digestable information. ;)


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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:21 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Lucarilover240 wrote:You lost me at about the fourth line of your post.

This happens sometimes.

Doc_Brown, you may get more responses, if you Outline/Provide Major points in a bullet. You know how people like easily digestable information. ;)


--Andy


Maybe that will be a bit easier to digest.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Timminz on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:40 pm

It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Woodruff on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:43 pm

AndyDufresne wrote:
Lucarilover240 wrote:You lost me at about the fourth line of your post.

This happens sometimes.

Doc_Brown, you may get more responses, if you Outline/Provide Major points in a bullet. You know how people like easily digestable information. ;)
--Andy


Is it REALLY that difficult to grasp? Come on Andy - it's really very simple, in fact.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby 72o on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:44 pm

A lot of good work here. I have to point out, though, that you're making the assumption that each loss is against someone with 1000 points. If they lose against other cooks, they will drop faster, if they lose against colonels, they drop slower. That makes the algorithm too difficult for my small mind to comprehend. ;)
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby sherkaner on Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Don't forget team games, that complicates things too :p.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Doc_Brown on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:17 pm

I did consider the problem of playing against a variety of different level players. But, as you noted, the math starts to get a lot more difficult. It wouldn't be too tough to do some statistical analysis though. Here would be the way to go about it:
  • Get a list of all active player scores. I'm not about to go through 78 pages on the scoreboard, but the maprank scoreboard (http://chipv.freehostia.com/scoreboard.php) would probably be suitable as a representative sample of the player scores on this site.
  • Fit a normal distribution to the scores to get a reasonable model for the expected current scores for opponents in any given game.
  • Perform a Monte Carlo simulation with the assumption that the distribution of the scores of the winners in all games played is the same as the distribution of current player scores on this site.

While this might be interesting to try, I doubt it will change the numbers too much. Maybe if I get bored later I'll look at it a bit more.

Playing team games certainly adds an additional complexity. You'll lose points significantly faster in team games, and fastest of all in quads, assuming your partners all have reasonably consistent scores in line with the averages of the site as a whole. Of course, the more players you have on your team the easier it is for them to pull out a win despite your ill intentions!
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby AAFitz on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:48 pm

No person has ever hit one point without explicitly, and illicitly dumping points to do so. I hope to see the day where the bottom is set at 200 to stop these point terrorists. Thanks for providing the math for what is implicitly obvious to anyone here Doc.

Simplistically,

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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Fruitcake on Tue Dec 22, 2009 6:53 pm

Good work and interesting..(well interesting to anyone with a curiosity of numbers such as I anyway).

I agree with Fitz, this does show with some real argument that anyone who is below 200 points is in the 'zone' of point dumping with the evidence piling up the further down the scale they descend.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby KraphtOne on Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:32 pm

well i'm no mathematician... but Hoogan only has to lose 42 more games to get to 1 point... and he hasnt played 340 games and has even won 10%
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby AndyDufresne on Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:08 pm

Woodruff wrote:
AndyDufresne wrote:
Lucarilover240 wrote:You lost me at about the fourth line of your post.

This happens sometimes.

Doc_Brown, you may get more responses, if you Outline/Provide Major points in a bullet. You know how people like easily digestable information. ;)
--Andy


Is it REALLY that difficult to grasp? Come on Andy - it's really very simple, in fact.


I didn't think it wasn't, Woodruff. ;) But I was just pointing out, by using the post before me, how to form a topic post when one has a wealth of information. ;)


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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby sully800 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:23 pm

It doesn't take nearly so long with team games, because you get to pretty much continue dropping at 20 points per game instead of 1 point and such. This was all pretty interesting in 2006 when there was no point cap in place, so someone with 1 point could have potentially won ~100,000 points if beating all "average" players. Panic ensued! :lol:

But of course since then the act has been made illegal and the benefits have been mitigated by adding the 100 point cap to wins. There's not much reason to do it anymore unless you're a masochist and would like to be punished.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby JOHNNYROCKET24 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:05 pm

Timminz wrote:It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.

how can you go below 1000 without point dumping ?
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Bones2484 on Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:09 pm

JOHNNYROCKET24 wrote:
Timminz wrote:It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.

how can you go below 1000 without point dumping ?


Is there a reason you are a self-praising elitist in every thread you post in?

edit: If you meant to type "100" instead of "1000", then feel free to ignore me.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Woodruff on Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:04 am

JOHNNYROCKET24 wrote:
Timminz wrote:It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.

how can you go below 1000 without point dumping ?


It's unfortunate that your ego so often gets in the way of your intellect.
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Army of GOD on Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:10 am

The first post belongs in the "You know you're addicted to CC when..." thread.



Don't get me wrong, it's interesting! But...come on.

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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Fruitcake on Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:15 am

JOHNNYROCKET24 wrote:
Timminz wrote:It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.

how can you go below 1000 without point dumping ?

Well, let's think about that....medal chasing perhaps? I hear that one can shed a load of points whilst chasing some virtual icons....I do also hear that some just rack up a series of meaningless tournaments then win a few of them, but less said eh...
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Doc_Brown on Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:19 am

Army of GOD wrote:The first post belongs in the "You know you're addicted to CC when..." thread.



Don't get me wrong, it's interesting! But...come on.

:ugeek:


I thought about that myself. I was really tempted to post something along the lines of:
You spend a not insignificant amount of time thinking through the mathematics of some aspect of CC (a la http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=104492).

over in the "You know you're addicted" thread. :ugeek:
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby mpjh on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:01 am

Good work doc. SoC members rule!

Can anyone explain why it matters (outside battle royale) whether someone get to such low points as below 100?
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby Chuuuuck on Wed Dec 23, 2009 10:21 am

I would pay good money to see a 1v1 match up between Hoogan and Andyp2007!
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby KraphtOne on Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:20 pm

JOHNNYROCKET24 wrote:
Timminz wrote:It's a suggestion to look into any account that drops below 100 points, because (according to all that math) it's highly unlikely that anyone will go below 100 points without point dumping. As well as a couple other ideas to help ensure that only point dumpers ever get below 100.

how can you go below 1000 without point dumping ?




well not everyone targets low ranks to pad win%
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Re: Mathematics of point dumping

Postby ETROPAL on Wed Dec 23, 2009 12:50 pm

Chuuuuck wrote:I would pay good money to see a 1v1 match up between Hoogan and Andyp2007!

ahahahahhahaha
http://chipv.freehostia.com/scoreboard. ... 1&st=Score

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