PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[JoshyBoy]

I dunno

We're all going to die so who cares...

Woah I'm depressed.

And I'm responding to my own posts... this is not cool.

Someone cheer me up!

[xelabale]

mod edit

Who decides what constitutes bigotry big boy? What about positive discrimination? Should xenophobia be included - "Bloody Canadians" Bam, 1 week ban? "Owen's gay" - no no, I meant happy! "Ladies first" - oh er, is that sexist? What about areas where the racism may not be overt but does still exist.

You may think it's trivial owenshooter but these are real issues that can easily end up leaving everyone upset and pissed off, which I'm sure you agree is not a good idea. A clear set of unambiguous comprehensive guidelines is always - always - a good idea. If you want to take the time to write them I applaud you, I'm simply suggesting borrowing extant ones from a trusted source. Thanks for your help with the pretty little buttons at the top of the screen though.

If you want to be taken more seriously then stop whining and attacking others ideas (trolling is against the guidelines too) and engage in debate.

[owenshooter]

"Owen's gay".

why would i expect anything less in a thread about the bigotry guidelines than to have two comments made against me that are against the guidelines. i love how people keep coming in here and proving my point. let me guess, we'll edit this, slap him on the wrist and act as if it never happened... absolutely ridiculous.-0

p.s.-yet another example of the continual bigoted baiting that i receive on a regular basis here on CC.. at least this time it wasn't an assault on my colour...

[Premier2k]

Bring back the black jesus! -0

I have witnessed both rascist and homophobic posts on this site. Whether it's reported and offenders dealt with or not I don't know. But I might try and find the posts, if the offenders have been dealt with then the posts won't exist....right (or at least edited)?

Premier2k

[JoshyBoy]

Bring back the black jesus!

MODS! MODS! MODS!

Get him!

[squishyg]

Ah owenshooter, as unhelpful as ever in a genuinely interesting conversation.

Who decides what constitutes bigotry big boy? What about positive discrimination? Should xenophobia be included - "Bloody Canadians" Bam, 1 week ban? "Owen's gay" - no no, I meant happy! "Ladies first" - oh er, is that sexist? What about areas where the racism may not be overt but does still exist.

You may think it's trivial owenshooter but these are real issues that can easily end up leaving everyone upset and pissed off, which I'm sure you agree is not a good idea. A clear set of unambiguous comprehensive guidelines is always - always - a good idea. If you want to take the time to write them I applaud you, I'm simply suggesting borrowing extant ones from a trusted source. Thanks for your help with the pretty little buttons at the top of the screen though.

If you want to be taken more seriously then stop whining and attacking others ideas (trolling is against the guidelines too) and engage in debate.

Perhaps Andy or another mod could list some examples of what is tolerated and what isn't. A la the "White Power" vs. "Green Power" example Owen cited.

For instance:
Dude, you suck. - Acceptable
Dude, that's totally gay - Unacceptable

That was a terrible move - Acceptable
You play like a girl - Unacceptable

I disagree with something the New York Times recently printed and I think their journalists have a liberal agenda - Acceptable
My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building - Unacceptable

Question, we've mainly discussed this in terms of posts and game chat. Will this be extended to user names and avatars as well?

[owenator]

Ah owenshooter, as unhelpful as ever in a genuinely interesting conversation.

Who decides what constitutes bigotry big boy? What about positive discrimination? Should xenophobia be included - "Bloody Canadians" Bam, 1 week ban? "Owen's gay" - no no, I meant happy! "Ladies first" - oh er, is that sexist? What about areas where the racism may not be overt but does still exist.

You may think it's trivial owenshooter but these are real issues that can easily end up leaving everyone upset and pissed off, which I'm sure you agree is not a good idea. A clear set of unambiguous comprehensive guidelines is always - always - a good idea. If you want to take the time to write them I applaud you, I'm simply suggesting borrowing extant ones from a trusted source. Thanks for your help with the pretty little buttons at the top of the screen though.

If you want to be taken more seriously then stop whining and attacking others ideas (trolling is against the guidelines too) and engage in debate.

Why are you trying to bait someone into flaming? Your examples were not only unhelpful but creating more harm than anything. I'm a Korean-Canadian by the way. Obviously we know where YOU stand.

[xelabale]

"Owen's gay".

why would i expect anything less in a thread about the bigotry guidelines than to have two comments made against me that are against the guidelines. i love how people keep coming in here and proving my point. let me guess, we'll edit this, slap him on the wrist and act as if it never happened... absolutely ridiculous.-0

p.s.-yet another example of the continual bigoted baiting that i receive on a regular basis here on CC.. at least this time it wasn't an assault on my colour...

And you are proving my point. Was I saying you are gay? Think about it for a second. And another. Think about the context. You well know I wasn't actually attacking you, you are simply hoping to get me "into trouble" by quoting me out of context. And why is being called gay deemed insulting? It seems like a compliment to me. Something may be an insult to one person and not to another. Do you want to be the one to decide in that situation? It's not easy to decide these things and they are serious and sensitive. My suggestion is simply to give the guys that would need to decide the best possible tools to do so. We could slap together a few guidelines, even work hard to produce some reasonable ones, or we could borrow professional ones. Where's the problem in that owenshoter?

[squishyg]

"Owen's gay".

why would i expect anything less in a thread about the bigotry guidelines than to have two comments made against me that are against the guidelines. i love how people keep coming in here and proving my point. let me guess, we'll edit this, slap him on the wrist and act as if it never happened... absolutely ridiculous.-0

p.s.-yet another example of the continual bigoted baiting that i receive on a regular basis here on CC.. at least this time it wasn't an assault on my colour...

And you are proving my point. Was I saying you are gay? Think about it for a second. And another. Think about the context. You well know I wasn't actually attacking you, you are simply hoping to get me "into trouble" by quoting me out of context. And why is being called gay deemed insulting? It seems like a compliment to me. Something may be an insult to one person and not to another. Do you want to be the one to decide in that situation? It's not easy to decide these things and they are serious and sensitive. My suggestion is simply to give the guys that would need to decide the best possible tools to do so. We could slap together a few guidelines, even work hard to produce some reasonable ones, or we could borrow professional ones. Where's the problem in that owenshoter?

Oh my goodness, really? It is not okay to say someone's gay in that context, because obviously you're implying that being thought of as gay is insulting. It's rude to the gay community to be used as a pawn like that. Come on now.

[xelabale]

Why are you trying to bait someone into flaming? Your examples were not only unhelpful but creating more harm than anything. I'm a Korean-Canadian by the way. Obviously we know where YOU stand.

Where's that? I'm half British half Ukrainian, born in Zambia, living in Turkey. Where exactly do I stand? Please tell me. And what does being Korean-Canadian have to do with where you stand? Seems irrelevant, unless you're looking for some sort of advantage from that?

If you read my post and find flaming you are proving my point - it is difficult, nay impossible to police these things - why not at least try to help by providing good guidelines? Did you find them all offensive? Which are worse. It's subjective, simply saying - ban em - is not enough, it's too ambiguous. Get off the bandwagon and address the issue and leave the ad hominem at home.

[xelabale]

"Owen's gay".

why would i expect anything less in a thread about the bigotry guidelines than to have two comments made against me that are against the guidelines. i love how people keep coming in here and proving my point. let me guess, we'll edit this, slap him on the wrist and act as if it never happened... absolutely ridiculous.-0

p.s.-yet another example of the continual bigoted baiting that i receive on a regular basis here on CC.. at least this time it wasn't an assault on my colour...

And you are proving my point. Was I saying you are gay? Think about it for a second. And another. Think about the context. You well know I wasn't actually attacking you, you are simply hoping to get me "into trouble" by quoting me out of context. And why is being called gay deemed insulting? It seems like a compliment to me. Something may be an insult to one person and not to another. Do you want to be the one to decide in that situation? It's not easy to decide these things and they are serious and sensitive. My suggestion is simply to give the guys that would need to decide the best possible tools to do so. We could slap together a few guidelines, even work hard to produce some reasonable ones, or we could borrow professional ones. Where's the problem in that owenshoter?

Oh my goodness, really? It is not okay to say someone's gay in that context, because obviously you're implying that being thought of as gay is insulting. It's rude to the gay community to be used as a pawn like that. Come on now.

In what context? As an example showing ambiguity you have managed to find concreteness. Owen's gay today, he must have won a few games recently. Is that okay?

Are all insults bad, by your previous post you seem to be implying no. Can I call someone an idiot?

Oh my God, stop being so straight squishyg

[squishyg]

"Owen's gay".

why would i expect anything less in a thread about the bigotry guidelines than to have two comments made against me that are against the guidelines. i love how people keep coming in here and proving my point. let me guess, we'll edit this, slap him on the wrist and act as if it never happened... absolutely ridiculous.-0

p.s.-yet another example of the continual bigoted baiting that i receive on a regular basis here on CC.. at least this time it wasn't an assault on my colour...

And you are proving my point. Was I saying you are gay? Think about it for a second. And another. Think about the context. You well know I wasn't actually attacking you, you are simply hoping to get me "into trouble" by quoting me out of context. And why is being called gay deemed insulting? It seems like a compliment to me. Something may be an insult to one person and not to another. Do you want to be the one to decide in that situation? It's not easy to decide these things and they are serious and sensitive. My suggestion is simply to give the guys that would need to decide the best possible tools to do so. We could slap together a few guidelines, even work hard to produce some reasonable ones, or we could borrow professional ones. Where's the problem in that owenshoter?

Oh my goodness, really? It is not okay to say someone's gay in that context, because obviously you're implying that being thought of as gay is insulting. It's rude to the gay community to be used as a pawn like that. Come on now.

In what context? As an example showing ambiguity you have managed to find concreteness. Owen's gay today, he must have won a few games recently. Is that okay?

Are all insults bad, by your previous post you seem to be implying no. Can I call someone an idiot?

Oh my God, stop being so straight squishyg

My example was to show what cc could deem acceptable and unacceptable, not good or bad. Something could be seen as bad and still be within what cc defines as acceptable. It's my understanding that the point of this thread was to brainstorm some ideas on how to redefine what cc will deem as acceptable.

[xelabale]

And my answer was to use a pre-existing framework from a trustworthy source - sorry it caused so much offense. Actually, I'm not sorry, it's the whole point.

[Timminz]

Andy,

I'm happy to see the way you've been steering this thread. I definitely agree that bigoted comments should be considered a harsher infraction than the other forum guidelines' no-nos.

Would something like: Warning (we will most always have a warning before any punishment it given), Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation.

If CC is intent on keeping with giving an official warning before any bans are ever given (and I could say something to show that that isn't always the case, but that is another topic), I think the model you've laid out here would be an excellent one.

First offense = stern warning, explaining what will happen if it reoccurs.
Second offense = mid-long vacation. (1 month perhaps)
Third offense = Perma.

It gives people a chance to change their ways, yet gives a very clear message that bigotry will not be tolerated.

[Night Strike]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

[owenshooter]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

sorry night strike, but an admin within this very thread had no idea how/why Nshooter was a derogatory term directed towards me... he declared he did a search for the term, could not find it, and thus it was not offensive. if you don't get the context/baiting in which alex called me "gay" it is beyond obvious. not to mention he copped to it in a later post, but i guess you didn't read that portion.

and i also disagree with your using the N word stating it isn't offensive. it is as offensive to me as if someone called me the word... members will come into threads where i am being discussed and drop the N word about as if it is no big deal, and guess what, it is baiting and offensive to a person of colour. i dealt with members using words out of context in an effort to bait me (niggardly out of context is just ridiculous, and nobody got in trouble). racism should be zero tolerance, and if you post the N word, i will report you as readily as i would any other member on the site. you are old enough and intelligent enough to know that the word is offensive.-0

[owenator]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

What?!! Using the word "nigger" is absolutely racist. It was created for that sole purpose. Along the way, it's been used so much that it has become more accepted, which is why it seems acceptable when two black people say it to each other. Is it tolerable? Perhaps, in some people's views but not in mine. Being called a "chink" by even another asian, I would not tolerate. You may be entitled to your opinion, but when this is an issue where it get's personal, one might consider choosing their words more carefully.

[xelabale]

My point is exactly this owenshooter. You are offended, yet I genuinely wasn't trying to offend you. Without going into playground tit for tat (that's offensive to women?) re-read my first post on the subject - I'm simply suggesting using existing guidelines from an organisation that has put years of work and huge amounts of money compiling the very guidelines we are looking for, especially as it's such a sensitive topic, as you have so clearly demonstrated. Before this got ridiculously escalated this is what I said:

I 100% agree that all forms of bigotry are wrong - racism, sexism, etc. It's all categorically wrong.

But how does one police it? You can't just monitor for keywords, there is context. And where is the line? 0 tolerance is all very well but it isn't practical If I call someone an idiotic yank is that bigotry, am I to be banned for 1 week? How do you draw a line in such a quagmire?

One solution could be to find an organisation that we would expect to have a good policy and adopt theirs - the UN for example. They must have thought through this issue much more thoroughly than we ever would have the time for, and we would/should all agree that their policy would be balanced and fair.

I have taken out the line that you seemed to find offensive. Note that I stand by the sentence I wrote, i just don't want to antagonise you owenshooter, simply make a reasonable point.

[owenshooter]

why do you not get that reading the "N" word or any other racist comment directed towards another race, is highly offensive to people of that origin? why is the "N" word not blanked out like the "F" word is? i will go out on a limb and say that one is far more offensive than the other.

this is just appalling that within a thread on bigotry, we have now had an admin not understand that Nshooter was a racist comment directed towards me (the member received zero punishment other than a warning and his post edited), and a very good moderator declare, by posting, that the "N" word is not offensive (and he posted the damn word!). this is one of the most ludicrous things i have seen on this site! i am not overly sensitive, i am just TIRED of continually reading racist and bigoted garbage on this site on a regular basis, as evidenced by this thread.

timminz, nice idea on the enforcement structure. but i believe when you go to the race card to insult someone, there is an intent there that should be more severely dealt with. as i stated, i think a severe warning combined with an immediate 3 day ban should be the first step. not a simply worded warning PM from the mods/admins...-0

[MrMoody]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

sorry night strike, but an admin within this very thread had no idea how/why Nshooter was a derogatory term directed towards me... he declared he did a search for the term, could not find it, and thus it was not offensive. if you don't get the context/baiting in which alex called me "gay" it is beyond obvious. not to mention he copped to it in a later post, but i guess you didn't read that portion.

and i also disagree with your using the N word stating it isn't offensive. it is as offensive to me as if someone called me the word... members will come into threads where i am being discussed and drop the N word about as if it is no big deal, and guess what, it is baiting and offensive to a person of colour. i dealt with members using words out of context in an effort to bait me (niggardly out of context is just ridiculous, and nobody got in trouble). racism should be zero tolerance, and if you post the N word, i will report you as readily as i would any other member on the site. you are old enough and intelligent enough to know that the word is offensive.-0

For once I find I agree with owen. This word should never be used on CC. I for one am getting tired of reading this word weekly in the forums. CC needs to draw the line here. context does not make this word acceptable.

[xelabale]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

What?!! Using the word "nigger" is absolutely racist. It was created for that sole purpose. Along the way, it's been used so much that it has become more accepted, which is why it seems acceptable when two black people say it to each other. Is it tolerable? Perhaps, in some people's views but not in mine. Being called a "chink" by even another asian, I would not tolerate. You may be entitled to your opinion, but when you this is an issue where it get's personal, one might consider choosing their words more carefully.

CC cannot police the whole language - which is inherently male-biased and full of religious connotation. Deconstructivism is at best controversial, and is way beyond the remit of this site. If you genuinely think I was being racist in my first post - or any others - pm me and I'll happily discuss it with you, but let's not ruin this thread.

1 word for you - context

[xelabale]

I think xelabale has some very valid points, and they are only further validated when owen reports them. A word is just a word until it was put into a context. In the context, he said nothing racist; he just used a word that can be used in a racial context. If I say "I just took a shit", I'm not flaming anyone; if I say "You are a piece of shit", then I'm flaming the recipient. Words and comments are always about the context, which is why I won't be warning xelabale for what he said. Just saying the word "nigger" is not racist: using it in a derogatory manner is.

sorry night strike, but an admin within this very thread had no idea how/why Nshooter was a derogatory term directed towards me... he declared he did a search for the term, could not find it, and thus it was not offensive. if you don't get the context/baiting in which alex called me "gay" it is beyond obvious. not to mention he copped to it in a later post, but i guess you didn't read that portion.

and i also disagree with your using the N word stating it isn't offensive. it is as offensive to me as if someone called me the word... members will come into threads where i am being discussed and drop the N word about as if it is no big deal, and guess what, it is baiting and offensive to a person of colour. i dealt with members using words out of context in an effort to bait me (niggardly out of context is just ridiculous, and nobody got in trouble). racism should be zero tolerance, and if you post the N word, i will report you as readily as i would any other member on the site. you are old enough and intelligent enough to know that the word is offensive.-0

For once I find I agree with owen. This word should never be used on CC. I for one am getting tired of reading this word weekly in the forums. CC needs to draw the line here. context does not make this word acceptable.

Did you read my post?

[xelabale]

why do you not get that reading the "N" word or any other racist comment directed towards another race, is highly offensive to people of that origin? why is the "N" word not blanked out like the "F" word is? i will go out on a limb and say that one is far more offensive than the other.

this is just appalling that within a thread on bigotry, we have now had an admin not understand that Nshooter was a racist comment directed towards me (the member received zero punishment other than a warning and his post edited), and a very good moderator declare, by posting, that the "N" word is not offensive (and he posted the damn word!. this is one of the most ludicrous things i have seen on this site! i am not overly sensitive, i am just TIRED of continually reading racist and bigoted garbage on this site on a regular basis, as evidenced by this thread.

timminz, nice idea on the enforcement structure. but i believe when you go to the race card to insult someone, there is an intent there that should be more severely dealt with. as i stated, i think a severe warning combined with an immediate 3 day ban should be the first step. not a simply worded warning PM from the mods/admins...-0

Reread my post owenshooter. Who was it directed to? What was it's purpose in the sentence. It was in no way racist and I 100% stand by it and it's use. I have recently listened to a sociological podcast where the "f" word was used in a discussion relating to the origins of swearing and the connection to genitalia. Should the presenter not have used the word? It was in the context of an academic discussion and I say THAT"S OKAY.

To be honest I have no idea who you are owenshooter. My first post - which contained the word - was simply added to the discussion. The fact that you have got so upset about it and seen it as a dig at you shows

a) my point is extremely valid
b) you are overly sensitive to take a general point and make it personal

[owenshooter]

1 word for you - context

there are certain words that you fully know are so offensive they are not needed within context to be offensive. perhaps that is why they are auto edited when typed here on the site. don't even try to act as if the mere act of typing the N word is not offensive to a person of colour, it belittles your intelligence. again, it should be auto-edited just like the other highly offensive words that are auto-edited. this is beyond sad. i love how someone that has never walked a mile in my shoes can tell me how i should and shouldn't be offended by the most offensive word you can use towards a person of my ethnic background. you sir, should talk about things you know about, not things you THINK you know about...-0

p.s.-xelable, how about finishing your entire thought process before posting? that way, you won't triple and quadruple post. just a friendly word of advice... two triple posts in one thread, impressive... let some other people speak for awhile...

[Gypsys Kiss]

So how far do you want to go with this?

today all the provinces of Canada except Québec are celebrating the queen of england and the real ruler of Canada, while in Québec we are celebrating the people that made Canada as it is now a democratic country.

death to the queen and long live to democracy !

Being English and a royalist I found this highly offensive. Timminz obviously didnt because his reply was...

I agree. Holidays are great.

Oddly enough, we're "celebrating" a week earlier than usual, this year.

The one mod who replied didnt see anything wrong with it either...

I'm fortunate to get to work on this Canadian holiday. I bet the server shows me as US right now while I'm at work on lunch.

Not only is the comment offensive, to me at least (and DAZMCFC, but he's from Salford so it dont count(can I say that???)), but it is ignorant and factually all over the place. My point is, what is offensive to one person may be a joke to another. How the hell do you police that. Patriotism is one thing but xenophobia is something else entirely.

Racism on the other hand should not be tolerated, and remember it is not just us 'honkeys' who are guilty of that.