Dear Moderators

[owenshooter]

It seems like he doesn't wish to answer your questions...

this thread is just possibly being ignored right now, because DM is more than they can handle and they refuse to admit any wrong doing or errors in judgement...-0

[Dancing Mustard]

Nah, it's pretty clear that this thread is currently the target of the "we don't have a coherent answer to give you, so we'll pretend not to hear you until you stop asking" tactic. Slightly more subtle than the "unjustifiable lock" manoeuvre, but equally juvenile, just as counter-productive.


Anyway, for those joining us at this late stage in the game, things have basically gone like this so far:

Thread gets locked for no apparent reason
Enquiry as to reasons for lock are made
Moderators say that it was locked for several unwritten reasons that do not feature in any of the written guidelines (i.e. because one of them just felt like locking it)
Users question the fairness of that, asking why unwritten rules only seem to apply to certain users
Most moderators shout "Shut up! You have had your answer! So what if we're abusing our powers and acting contrary to the guidelines we're always demanding that everybody else follows! Just accept it without comment!"
One Mod sees the light of reason and unlocks thread
Another angry Mod sticks to his untenable line of reasoning and re-locks it
Users continue to point out that Mods are clearly abusing their powers, and that the lock is 100% unjustifiable
Mods continue to point out that they don't really care what the guidelines say, and that they will just lock whatever they feel like, then ignore any complaints that they're inventing rules on the fly.
Users attempt to point out to mods why this is clearly a gross abuse of their position and utterly counter-productive
Mods try to ignore the complaints away because they've run out of new ways to dodge difficult questions

[jpcloet]

Andy, is it okay if in the future games are posted in callouts for fuckhead games? Otherwise how will I know when they are on? Or are fuckhead games against the rules of the site? Or is it decriminalised - you can have the games, but don't try to encourage others to play - personal use only.

The answer is yes you can put a thread in callouts, although the thread needs to be worded more appropriately. Callouts is moderated by the Clan Directors (Primarily myself right now).

I suggest something simple along the lines of ""Games Open for the Offensively Witty Game Chatters......."

Stay away from anything flame related, or anything that is against CC rules and you will be fine in my books.

[hecter]

The answer is yes you can put a thread in callouts, although the thread needs to be worded more appropriately. Callouts is moderated by the Clan Directors (Primarily myself right now).

I see... And why is this not in the guidelines? Or in some kind of sticky in the callouts section?

[jpcloet]

You would think that this would be covered by the Community Guidelines and just basic common sense.

Are you done complaining yet, or do I need to address any other questions?

[Serbia]

I suggest something simple along the lines of ""Games Open for the Offensively Witty Game Chatters......."

Stay away from anything flame related, or anything that is against CC rules and you will be fine in my books.

Look, in light of the new quick ban rules that we have, I'm deathly afraid of being banned the next time I make any post not related to my tourneys, or in the safety of my clan forums, but I just have to point this one out.
"Offensively Witty Game Chatters"
"Stay away from anything flame related, or anything that is against CC rules"
FredVIII just got a final perma-ban for what many people were regarding as "Offensively Witty Game Chat", because you and other mods deemed it "flame related, or... against CC rules". So basically you are saying "go ahead and start that thread, it'll be another lock and another strike on you". A cynical man might say you're baiting DM by giving him 'permission'.

That said, I think you mods are doing a lovely job, I'd vote for you, you're my favorites, and please heed my signature. Thank you and have a glorious day.

[jpcloet]

I think the main difference is that by having a callout, players know what to expect, and in this case would dish it back. In reference to FredVIII, I think many players were "unsuspecting" in many of those games, and he did so in a pattern of abuse. I'm not baiting DM, and if he is concerned about posting the new callout, he can send me a pm for a preview. I'm here to help as well. Leverage the mods. If you think something is questionable, seek advice.

[Dancing Mustard]

If you think something is questionable, seek advice.

A difficult thing to do when even the mods themselves don't seem to be singing from the same hymn-sheet when it comes to what the unwritten rules are.

For example: remember that time that Andy locked a thread and didn't own up to it, then Clapper unlocked it because the thread broke no rules, then Jpcloet locked it again because he was upset that he couldn't explain why it was locked the first time?

Apparently, if I'd asked Clapper about my PM before posting it then I'd have been told all was AOK, but Fuzzy Whatsit would have given me a different answer. Obviously, if I'd asked Andy then he'd have either ignored my PM and hoped that my thread would never happen or would have answered with some unhelpful quasi-riddle like "Let us all try to avoid threads which are not truly threads and from posting what is not correct for posting, thus spoke Confucathustra"... but that's just how he rolls.

[hecter]

Are you done complaining yet, or do I need to address any other questions?

Well, see, right now you're saying "The common sense rules dictate that you have to word callouts in a nice an appropriate manner." You've implied that it's otherwise okay. And yet...
Subject: Job Advertisement: Fuckhead Required, please enquire within.

The candidate will be required to to make constant and lively contributions to the game-chat (which is likely to be vulgar and offensive). Promoting offensive comments

Being notorious in some way, having a talent for flaming (or generally being rude to) other users, and having earned one or more forum-ban, would be a strong advantage. Promoting bad behavior

Enjoying abusing the pointless ratings system Ratings abuse is a punishable CC offense.

Locked down.

Which STATES that the very concept of the game was no good (despite not being against the rules or guidelines). So are you admitting an error here? You have to look at it from my point of view, all this flip-flopping is very confusing, so bear with me, please.

Also, it'd be nice if some of these things were actually stated. Swearing has never been an issue for any of us in the past, in any forum we've visited. So for you to just say that "It's common sense.", well, no, it's not. Common sense would air on the side of consistency, and what's been consistent is that I have, and neither has anybody else, gotten in trouble for some naughty language (I know plenty of cases where the mods have said "This site never claimed to be family friendly."). So for it to suddenly be an issue now is a bit of a shock. Some consistency would really be nice.

[jpcloet]

The post you created was a callout, why would you seek advice from a chat mod? That's right, you posted in the wrong area.

Let me clarify then:

If you think something is questionable, seek advice from the appropriate moderator. If you can't figure that out, maybe you should ask then. We do have a Q&A forum here.

I'm still waiting on a pm to help DM with his wording for his new thread.

[hecter]

The post you created was a callout, why would you seek advice from a chat mod? That's right, you posted in the wrong area.

That's fine, but you should hardly put your senior and global mod (not chat, global) down like that.

Let me clarify then:

If you think something is questionable, seek advice from the appropriate moderator. If you can't figure that out, maybe you should ask then. We do have a Q&A forum here.

That's hardly a clarification... We had no reason to believe that the thread was inappropriate, based on the rules, the guidelines and past experience.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

I suggest something simple along the lines of ""Games Open for the Offensively Witty Game Chatters......."

Stay away from anything flame related, or anything that is against CC rules and you will be fine in my books.

Look, in light of the new quick ban rules that we have, I'm deathly afraid of being banned the next time I make any post not related to my tourneys, or in the safety of my clan forums, but I just have to point this one out.
"Offensively Witty Game Chatters"
"Stay away from anything flame related, or anything that is against CC rules"
FredVIII just got a final perma-ban for what many people were regarding as "Offensively Witty Game Chat", because you and other mods deemed it "flame related, or... against CC rules". So basically you are saying "go ahead and start that thread, it'll be another lock and another strike on you". A cynical man might say you're baiting DM by giving him 'permission'.

That said, I think you mods are doing a lovely job, I'd vote for you, you're my favorites, and please heed my signature. Thank you and have a glorious day.

Yes! The Moderators are doing a great job.

What a second....I think Serbia and I are smoking out of the same bong.

[Dancing Mustard]

The post you created was a callout, why would you seek advice from a chat mod? That's right, you posted in the wrong area.

Erroneous on so many levels, once again.

(1) The mod that you are referencing was never solicited for any particular specific advice, her disagreement with you was based upon her own reading of this thread
(2) That mod is, in any event, a GLOBAL moderator and not a 'chat' moderator.
(3) Even if the thread was in the wrong forum (a statement I dispute), that still doesn't explain why it was locked once it reached the new forum after it had been unlocked by a Global Moderator with greater seniority than you.

So far as I can tell the only reason that you had for locking that thread once it reached callouts (after it had been pointed out that it broke no guidelines, and this fact had been confirmed by a Global Mod) was because you didn't want to lose face after being proved so wrong. The thread reached your personal domain (certified by a more senior mod as AOK) but you locked it anyway because you were too proud to admit that you had been in error at first instance.

[Snorri1234]

Oh man, this thread is great.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Let's get back to basics.

The original thread was not FLAMING anyone or BAITING or TROLLING! It was done to get like minded assholes together for some fun. It seems the Moderators and other C.C. administrators are the one's who are FLAMING, BAITING and TROLLING. They threaten people with warnings, bans and perma-bans, this type of behavior on their part should not be tolerated.

The owner of C.C. should get personally involve with this matter. Having the Moderators and administrators bullying the regular posters in General Discussion for having some harmless fun and try turning into something else, is SHAMEFUL!

It's either that or bring back FLAME WARS. At least there, those who insult can be insulted back with-out retribution. The Moderators and administrators hated FLAME WARS, cause they feared the free speech and criticism that went with the territory.

Having all sorts of Moderators and administraors ganging up on the regular posters is throwing a lot of cold water on this discussion.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Let's get back to basics.

The original thread was not FLAMING anyone or BAITING or TROLLING! It was done to get like minded assholes together for some fun. It seems the Moderators and other C.C. administrators are the one's who are FLAMING, BAITING and TROLLING. They threaten people with warnings, bans and perma-bans, this type of behavior on their part should not be tolerated.

The owner of C.C. should get personally involve with this matter. Having the Moderators and administrators bullying the regular posters in General Discussion for having some harmless fun and try turning into something else, is SHAMEFUL!

It's either that or bring back FLAME WARS. At least there, those who insult can be insulted back with-out retribution. The Moderators and administrators hated FLAME WARS, cause they feared the free speech and criticism that went with the territory.

Having all sorts of Moderators and administrators ganging up on the regular posters is throwing a lot of cold water on this discussion.

[owenshooter]

The owner of C.C. should get personally involve with this matter. Having the Moderators and administrators bullying the regular posters in General Discussion for having some harmless fun and try turning into something else, is SHAMEFUL!

yep, DM just got the perma-ban... ridiculous... boy, they sure showed him.-0

[owenator]

screw tv. This has way better drama than any of the crap that I've been watching lately.

[azezzo]

Let's get back to basics.

The original thread was not FLAMING anyone or BAITING or TROLLING! It was done to get like minded assholes together for some fun. It seems the Moderators and other C.C. administrators are the one's who are FLAMING, BAITING and TROLLING. They threaten people with warnings, bans and perma-bans, this type of behavior on their part should not be tolerated.

The owner of C.C. should get personally involve with this matter. Having the Moderators and administrators bullying the regular posters in General Discussion for having some harmless fun and try turning into something else, is SHAMEFUL!

It's either that or bring back FLAME WARS. At least there, those who insult can be insulted back with-out retribution. The Moderators and administrators hated FLAME WARS, cause they feared the free speech and criticism that went with the territory.

Having all sorts of Moderators and administrators ganging up on the regular posters is throwing a lot of cold water on this discussion.

i have to agree with general stoneham

[F1fth]

Forget the minor abuses that were cited, this thread is what got DM banned. The mods don't like being questioned...

I guess a "Sorry, we misunderstood the purpose of the thread. It has been unlocked and moved to the proper place, though we would strongly urge you to reword the thread to something more appropriate so that such a situation does not happen again" is too much to ask for. You know, professionalism, empathy, understanding.

How do you numbskulls not understand that this is ALL it takes to placate us?

[Fruitcake]

Forget the minor abuses that were cited, this thread is what got DM banned. The mods don't like being questioned...

I guess a "Sorry, we misunderstood the purpose of the thread. It has been unlocked and moved to the proper place, though we would strongly urge you to reword the thread to something more appropriate so that such a situation does not happen again" is too much to ask for. You know, professionalism, empathy, understanding.

How do you numbskulls not understand that this is ALL it takes to placate us?

Don't go wishing for the stars. The moderators have a limit to their capabilities and their respect for us the members, it is of no use wondering why their limitations are there, they just are and will always be, such is the type of person they are.

[jiminski]

The problem is the Mods and Andy think they got it right... they think they were pushed to the limit .. gave more than enough chances and then eventually, when no other choice was left, they perma-banned him.

They are wrong. But they are wrong because of their initial position being incorrect and somewhat, though they may not admit it, the ban being about their frustration and convenience rather than it being for the good of the site.

Permanent banning should be a tool for the worst of the worst, not the best of the best. It should be, and they need to change their reasoning on this in case another interesting yet difficult poster should take his place, (i see no one to do so in our ranks so far).. it should be held back for the truly nasty and the truly corrupting influences. It should not be for those who entertain us all and keep the essence of the sites character from being grey and fuddy-duddy!

The site backed themselves into a corner on this and the irony is they decide the dimensions of the room.

Sure people will come out and say "Mustard had it coming for ages, he kept on pushing and deserved what he got"

I say Poppycock! he repeatedly broke the rules i concede that but in mischief, not in ways to bring the walls crashing down on us! Far from that, he added to the walls, he made them uneven, sometimes inside-out and regularly transparent but we need that or we build ourselves a 4 x 4 prison cell!

This reasoning comes from the same draconian self-help book that the "3 strikes and you're out!" ethos come from .. well that is bloody stupid as a punitive precept .. it means that people who are petty yet habitual criminals get life in gaol! idiocy, impracticality and injustice abounds and all to placate those too uptight to allow themselves to live a little.

I have no faith that my words will fix the permaban, nor faith that these words will truly be registered as more than exaggerated ego to ignore as passing eulogy from the ever-uppity masses. But the site should remember that we all create what this site is and its character is not solely that of our enigmatic leader (Lack has left us anyway)
Lacks legacy lives on through the excellent and free moderation which still exists here but be careful to keep the original and fun philosophy alive or we are just another hollow gaming site.

I know, i know, the old guard will rally: you conservative, with a small c, fuddy duddies will pass it off as an irritating, sometimes funny little boy getting the discipline he craved; Fitzy will say i'm way off-base and that Mustard's departure was a warranted inevitability, the site is moving on whether we like it or not ..

But it was not inevitable and we all lose from this mistake in judgement.

[angola]

Just shut up and play Risk like everyone else. - Dancing Mustard

[jiminski]

Just shut up and play Risk like everyone else. - Dancing Mustard

you talking to me Ange?

[Mr Changsha]

The problem is the Mods and Andy think they got it right... they think they were pushed to the limit .. gave more than enough chances and then eventually, when no other choice was left, they perma-banned him.

They are wrong. But they are wrong because of their initial position being incorrect and somewhat, though they may not admit it, the ban being about their frustration and convenience rather than it being for the good of the site.

Permanent banning should be a tool for the worst of the worst, not the best of the best. It should be, and they need to change their reasoning on this in case another interesting yet difficult poster should take his place, (i see no one to do so in our ranks so far).. it should be held back for the truly nasty and the truly corrupting influences. It should not be for those who entertain us all and keep the essence of the sites character from being grey and fuddy-duddy!

The site backed themselves into a corner on this and the irony is they decide the dimensions of the room.

Sure people will come out and say "Mustard had it coming for ages, he kept on pushing and deserved what he got"

I say Poppycock! he repeatedly broke the rules i concede that but in mischief, not in ways to bring the walls crashing down on us! Far from that, he added to the walls, he made them uneven, sometimes inside-out and regularly transparent but we need that or we build ourselves a 4 x 4 prison cell!

This reasoning comes from the same draconian self-help book that the "3 strikes and you're out!" ethos come from .. well that is bloody stupid as a punitive precept .. it means that people who are petty yet habitual criminals get life in gaol! idiocy, impracticality and injustice abounds and all to placate those too uptight to allow themselves to live a little.

I have no faith that my words will fix the permaban, nor faith that these words will truly be registered as more than exaggerated ego to ignore as passing eulogy from the ever-uppity masses. But the site should remember that we all create what this site is and its character is not solely that of our enigmatic leader (Lack has left us anyway)
Lacks legacy lives on through the excellent and free moderation which still exists here but be careful to keep the original and fun philosophy alive or we are just another hollow gaming site.

I know, i know, the old guard will rally: you conservative, with a small c, fuddy duddies will pass it off as an irritating, sometimes funny little boy getting the discipline he craved; Fitzy will say i'm way off-base and that Mustard's departure was a warranted inevitability, the site is moving on whether we like it or not ..

But it was not inevitable and we all lose from this mistake in judgement.

Excellent post.

However DM is surely finished. I think a permaban is rather akin to an execution - you can't get a reprieve once they turn up the voltage.

I would like to think your post (and others) might make a difference with regards to reforming the current escalating disciplinary system. For it manages to be both too rigid and yet ripe for bias and subjectivity. A rare achievement.

Like many others though I hold out little hope...