Ok, this is going to be a long post, so please bear with me. The majority of this post with be my own personal opinion and will not be a reflection on CC,
those parts that are based on CC policy and not my personal opinion will appear in this greenish color. This post will also reference posts made by many different users, if you do not feel like reading the parts that do not concern you, feel free to find your name within the post.
Usernames will appear bold and in this blueish color.That being said, I will start with OP's last post and people's reactions to it. It is my belief that OP was not talking to
F1fth when he was stating his intent to not post any longer. It seemed that he was directing his comments at
pimpdave. What I think he meant, and that not many people saw or understood, was he came into this thread to try and talk about the situation. He waited because he wanted his comments to be thought through.
pimpdave, the thing you missed is that he was willing to talk about the situation and hear your side of the story, but your responses came off as though anything short of him saying "DM is no longer forum banned" was not enough. He left the thread because he cannot say that,
it will not happen (I personally agree that it should not happen either).
As a moderator, I am privy to a lot of conversations that the general community does not get to see, those include certain conversations between moderators and people who have been warned, similar to a criminal record. Which brings me to my next point (
jonesthecurl):
jonesthecurl wrote:I've never been warned nor banned either.
If I were in charge, i'd probably have had words with DM about his conduct.
That doesn't change my point or invalidate Dave's.
Since you have never had an incident where you would be aware of this, I will describe what happens on any official action. Someone breaks the rules, a moderator sees the infraction and looks at the user's infraction history to determine what the proper course of action is. No matter what the official response is, a message (either a PM or an email) will be sent to the user describing what they did wrong and what, if any, punishment they will receive. The user knows which moderator has sent the message and usually contacts the moderator for a further explanation. Specifically with regard to DM, he had more than enough instances where he PMed moderators to know what he was doing.
Next with regard to the escalation of punishments (
TheProwler):
TheProwler wrote:...A person shoplifts and is found guilty...shortened
But there is no way this annoying prick is going to ever be executed or thrown into jail for more than a few months for shoplifting. He might get another year for stealing a car. But never, ever, life.
I would like to direct your attention to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-strikes_law. Specifically this quotation:
Some unusual scenarios have arisen, particularly in California — the state punishes shoplifting and similar crimes involving over $500 in property as felony petty theft if the person who committed the crime has a prior conviction for any form of theft, including robbery or burglary. As a result, some defendants have been given sentences of 25 years to life in prison for such crimes as shoplifting golf clubs (Gary Ewing, previous strikes for burglary and robbery with a knife), nine videotapes (Leandro Andrade, received double sentence of 25 year-to-life for 2 counts of shoplifting), or, along with a violent assault, a slice of pepperoni pizza from a group of children (Jerry Dewayne Williams, four previous non-violent felonies, sentence later reduced to six years).
pimpdave's next comment:
pimpdave wrote:Well then what about completely unreasonable and WRONG bans?
If the ban is unreasonable and wrong, send an eticket and an admin will reverse it. If it does not get reversed, then the admins agree with the moderator on the basis of the ban.
pimpdave wrote:You mods should be users for awhile, and have to get banned the way we are, for STUPID STUFF and have NO RECOURSE, NO FORGIVENESS, NO MERCY.
As
jpcloet pointed out, almost all of the mods (I can only think of two exceptions) were users first and were either nominated by the community or nominated by other mods,
for their contributions to the community. Also, most of the moderators do not have anything more serious than a signature size infraction in their history.
StiffMittens on the pervasive nature of a problem:
StiffMittens wrote:That just indicates that the problem is more systemic rather than centered around just one staff member (or a few staff members).
[Sarcasm]And I thought we weren't consistent.[/Sarcasm]
Seriously though, most moderators can only give out 24 hour vacations, some moderators can give out 72 hour vacations. Only admins can give out vacations of longer than 72 hours, so anything more than that was given by an admin and likely discussed among all of the admins. Might the admins have a hair trigger? Maybe, maybe not, I personally don't think they do.
F1fth regarding overturned decisions:
F1fth wrote:Appreciate the response. For what it's worth, I've never heard of any sentence successfully appealed within the e-ticket system. I think the ticket system is more for account issues and for general questions, not really an appeals system per se.
As a hunter, I have made two busts (that I am aware of) that have been overturned via the eticket system. If you have not broken the rules, the system does work and you will have incorrect punishments overturned.
Simon Viavant's comments on permabans:
Simon Viavant wrote:I thought this whole banning thing was supposed to be for if someone was a constant problem for the community. As I can see, very few people in the community had a problem with DM or pretty much anyone else who was permabanned...shortened
Skipping DM for a minute, I would like to bring out some other instances of people who were permabanned. For all of these people there was a community of users who created threads and unified to get the person reinstated:
wicked,
norse,
Interfacer PH,
black elk speaks,
maxatstuy, and
suggs. I would beg to disagree that people did not have a problem with these users or that they should not have been permabanned. Every single user on this list has also created (or permanently accessed) at least one other account. Just because people support a user does not mean that the user is good for the community.
pimpdave is a little behind the times:
pimpdave wrote:Come on Hyasri...shortened
Hyasri was removed from his position as community manager a while ago. AndyDufresne is now the community manager.
And a little angry:
pimpdave wrote:Night Strike wrote:He's not trolling, he's disagreeing with your claim. Not everyone who is not a mod will agree with you.
Seriously, why the hell are you in this thread? Your ability to be impartial is clearly compromised. If you are speaking for all of the mods, then please, keep posting, if not, then for your own good, shut up.
You basically invited him into the thread when you tried to smear his name. He is a good moderator and
he gave up his duties as a global mod to return his focus to the tournaments forum. How does that make him disgraced? Was OP disgraced when he stepped down from being a tournament mod to later become a site administrator? Was Twill disgraced when he voluntarily left because he had other time commitments and
he had initially only intended to be here for three months back in 2006?
owenshooter, please read the comment that you quoted again:
owenshooter wrote:hwhrhett wrote: the only people that complain that they are too strict are people that make a habit of breaking the rules..
...
shortened
[Note that this is a personal opinion based on one comment by another individual.]I believe you were one of the people he was talking about.
owenshooter and
Fruitcake asking about when the community was involved in deciding the length of vacations:
owenshooter wrote:Fruitcake wrote:Night Strike wrote:The very valid point was completely ignored: why are the same people who praised the major/minor infractions scales the same people who are now saying they shouldn't be followed? The community helped decide those scales.
When was this?
exactly, when was this? who was involved? where is the thread? where is the official announcement? i do not recall ever seeing or hearing about this. funny how we had a very open and public debate about the change in the
bigotry guidelines with Andy showing exactly what an admin is possible of accomplishing when they are open to discussion and debate...
shortened
owen, that bigotry thread set the new punishment ladder. Bigotry was just the example infraction, but the ladder for bigotry is applied to all of the major infractions.
pimpdave's request that someone speak to the original post in the thread:
pimpdave wrote:As was already mentioned, even in the OP of this thread (which no one, especially the admin, has bothered to even address), that the permanent ban should not be removed from the table entirely. As for the forums you've frequented, what are they? What is your basis for comparison? Do you mean the Sean Hannity forum? Cause, um, that's really not valid. You can't go throwing this stuff out without providing real evidence. If this site is so lenient, then what is the standard of elegance for moderating?...shortened
I do see that you don't want to take it off of the table, but that means that it might have to be used at some point. The problem is, that no matter when it is used, or how many infractions someone like DM has before they are banned, people will always complain that the moderators are being too heavy-handed when a permaban is used. Delaying its use does not end the discussion, it only delays it. I am sorry if you do not like that answer, but it is the truth. If DM were not banned the other day, but it were to have happened next year instead, do you think we would be having this discussion then?
My last point will be this. There have been other permabans in the past. People have complained that other permabans were not fair or deserved. One might think that the people who complained would recognize that a line had been drawn as to what was allowable and what was not and would stay away from the behavior. All that this shows is that people have not learned from the mistakes of others and are repeating those same mistakes.
I will be keeping up with this thread, so please post responses here. If you do not want to discuss something in public, feel free to PM me and I will respond.
