account sitting issues..new rule? <updated - see 1st post>

[jiminski]

OK.....
- 24 hour rule is preposterous if it is a written-rule, stringently upheld. And you will have to ban me if you implement it.

- For Sequential it appears to me that we have proven the case that the 24 hour rule is irrelevant; as no significant advantage is gained by a team-mate playing for another. (multi-rules more than cover abuse of multiple accounts)

- For Freestyle.. well this is the one up for abuse! Make it that Team-mates can not play as babysitter and you need an alternative player to take turns in Freestyle only ... then the 24 hour rule is also irrelevant.

In short:
Sequential Team - No 24 hour rule at all and complete flexibility regarding Babysitter (provided they are no on the opposing side).
Freestyle Team - No 24 hour rule but teammates are blocked from playing the go's for players on the same team.

We already have differential ruling on team and singles games i.e. play in for a teammate in the same game as babysitter. You can not play in the same game as babysitter in singles.

therefore i see no difficulty in a two-tier system .. all the cheats are in Freestyle anyway.

For sake of simpleness I can see the ruling being...

"Babysitting can not be for anyone you are playing with regardless of enemy or teammate or style" (or similar)

- This way it is uber easy to enforce, understand & write...

Thoughts?

C.

My thoughts are above Yeti.. and i don;t see why they can not make a ruling to target the problem area - i.e. Freestyle abuse.

It can be really tough to find a babysitter who is in none of your games .. you would probably needs 5 mates to look after yours games. well i can do this as our clan is a fantastic little family of fine players.. but very few have the ability to draw on 17 mates.

It is very simple- Freestyle Babysitter can not play in the any of the same games as another player.
Other than that the ruling for all other games remains unchanged. 24 hour ruling dilemma is solved and does not exist written or unwritten

[detlef]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

Well then great. Because it's "easier" we'll enact a totally unneeded rule to protect against something that isn't happening. Sounds great.

Jim's solution is quite simple. Make a rule that affects the part of babysitting that gets abused and don't make some blanket rule that seems motived primarily from spite. As evidenced by the "suck it up cupcake" comments. The motives expressed by those of us who feel sequential games should not be affected are pure. They are simply to move the games along and or make CC more convenient to enjoy. The cost is basically nothing since it is rather clear that the only alleged abuses you guys can bring up fall under multis anyway.

[James Vazquez]

Although this seems a Big issue only 78 people voted. So it may not be as big an issue as some of us perceived.

and if the 48 votes are teams that sit accounts then it is only 24 votes (lol)

Unwritten rules are tough to enforce. I like written rules. Then I know when I am pushing the limits.

We must remember that these are not well populated forums- the Classic Map alteration did not secure many more votes and i assume you acknowledge many more people cared about it.

also I am not sure this vote is valid at all or one to judge the issue on at all WAc.. it is obscure and ambiguous!

I think many people are unsure as to what to actually vote for.


what does it mean and how is it relevant to the 24 hour rule really?
Strengthening the 24 hour rule seems to be where the mods are shepherding the issue to but how do any of the vote options help clarify that issue?
Not a jot!!

James says 'no one gives a shit'.. I take exception to that.. and the tone of his post was inflammatory (perhaps that was the aim?) i am not sure he has really read our comments but there are only so many times you can say the same thing! to be honest i had just thought that the mods would be sensible and judge the babysitter 24 hour rule in a bespoke manner with reference to likelihood of advantage gained as to its deeming of abuse... apparently we have more fight on our hands!?

James wants clear concise guidelines on how to move forward:


OK.....
- 24 hour rule is preposterous if it is a written-rule, stringently upheld. And you will have to ban me if you implement it.

- For Sequential it appears to me that we have proven the case that the 24 hour rule is irrelevant; as no significant advantage is gained by a team-mate playing for another. (multi-rules more than cover abuse of multiple accounts)

- For Freestyle.. well this is the one up for abuse! Make it that Team-mates can not play as babysitter and you need an alternative player to take turns in Freestyle only ... then the 24 hour rule is also irrelevant.

In short:
Sequential Team - No 24 hour rule at all and complete flexibility regarding Babysitter (provided they are no on the opposing side).
Freestyle Team - No 24 hour rule but teammates are blocked from playing the go's for players on the same team.

We already have differential ruling on team and singles games i.e. play in for a teammate in the same game as babysitter. You can not play in the same game as babysitter in singles.

therefore i see no difficulty in a two-tier system .. all the cheats are in Freestyle anyway.

jiminiski states there is a rule that teamamtes can sit games toegether? find it it doesnt exist. NOone shall play two accounts in any game. That is the current rule. This confusion is exactly why there needs to be clear language on this.

[yeti_c]

jiminiski states there is a rule that teamamtes can sit games toegether? find it it doesnt exist. NOone shall play two accounts in any game. That is the current rule. This confusion is exactly why there needs to be clear language on this.

There are 2 rules in place I believe...

15. Can I let another player take a turn for me when I am away from the game?

You can, with the stipulation that the account babysitter is not your opponent in any current game and does not start or join new games (except for ongoing tournaments). It is common courtesy to announce in game chat that another player will take your turn(s) during your absence.

Rule #1: No multiple accounts

Multiple accounts are discovered by routine scans and community cheating reports. They are strictly forbidden whether or not they play in the same games. If you suspect certain accounts belong to the same person, please report it following the instructions at the top of the Cheating & Abuse Reports forum.

However...

FAQ 15 states the word "opponent"

And Rule #1 states the word "belong"

So it is true that the current "Teammates" query falls between these cracks... as your games are not being babysat by an opponent... and the account you're babysitting doesn't belong to you.

C.

[yeti_c]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

I disagree - Babysitters aim should be to stop players "missing a turn" not "deadbeating out of a game"...

It's annoying when people miss turns - but if they missed 2 then the babysitter came in and said "I'm here now to babysit" then plays one turn - then they have to skip another 2 turns before the babysitter is allowed back in? That's a ridiculous idea and makes the system much worse.

C.

[owenshooter]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

I disagree - Babysitters aim should be to stop players "missing a turn" not "deadbeating out of a game"...

It's annoying when people miss turns - but if they missed 2 then the babysitter came in and said "I'm here now to babysit" then plays one turn - then they have to skip another 2 turns before the babysitter is allowed back in? That's a ridiculous idea and makes the system much worse.

C.

greenoaks doesn't even get it... babysitting is not to avoid deadbeating... *rolling my eyes*.-0

[greenoaks]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

I disagree - Babysitters aim should be to stop players "missing a turn" not "deadbeating out of a game"...

It's annoying when people miss turns - but if they missed 2 then the babysitter came in and said "I'm here now to babysit" then plays one turn - then they have to skip another 2 turns before the babysitter is allowed back in? That's a ridiculous idea and makes the system much worse.

C.

if you are going to miss 3 or more turns then you get a babysitter to take all your turns until you return. otherwise it is as james said.

Real life happens if ya miss a turn deal, suck it up cupcake.

[yeti_c]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

I disagree - Babysitters aim should be to stop players "missing a turn" not "deadbeating out of a game"...

It's annoying when people miss turns - but if they missed 2 then the babysitter came in and said "I'm here now to babysit" then plays one turn - then they have to skip another 2 turns before the babysitter is allowed back in? That's a ridiculous idea and makes the system much worse.

C.

if you are going to miss 3 or more turns then you get a babysitter to take all your turns until you return. otherwise it is as james said.

Real life happens if ya miss a turn deal, suck it up cupcake.

OK Still disagree - I'd rather babysitting was for people missing turns... the site runs so much smoother when people play their turns.

C.

[detlef]

plus babysitting is only allowed to avoid deadbeating.

missing a turn is part of life, suck it up cupcake.

I disagree - Babysitters aim should be to stop players "missing a turn" not "deadbeating out of a game"...

It's annoying when people miss turns - but if they missed 2 then the babysitter came in and said "I'm here now to babysit" then plays one turn - then they have to skip another 2 turns before the babysitter is allowed back in? That's a ridiculous idea and makes the system much worse.

C.

if you are going to miss 3 or more turns then you get a babysitter to take all your turns until you return. otherwise it is as james said.

Real life happens if ya miss a turn deal, suck it up cupcake.

Of course, you're the same stand up guy who argued that babysitting deprives the other team of the advantage of having another team miss a turn. Sounds to me like you're hell bent on getting shit for free.

[greenoaks]

i want one rule for all. babysitting an account is for extended periods away, a turn is not to be taken by anyone in the same game.

as it is now the most vocal players regarding exempting sequential teams games from the same rule as everyone else seems to be those who run multiple accounts. they are protecting their arse, fair enough.

but why are you in such a huff about it detlaf ?

[jiminski]

jiminiski states there is a rule that teamamtes can sit games toegether? find it it doesnt exist. NOone shall play two accounts in any game. That is the current rule. This confusion is exactly why there needs to be clear language on this.

Good grief who peed on your raspberries!

I have seen it written time and time and again by mods that teammates can play for another... and never have seen it written before about the 24 hour rule.

But that is distraction! i will trust you on the 24 hour thing and you can trust me on the other, Deal? . .. I think you know James that i speak the truth and why you are trying to escalate the argument i have no idea. I can only assume you have a personal hatred for Babysitters in general.. Did yours used to send you to your room before your your favourite programme came on or something?

Back on subject:

This confusion is exactly why there needs to be clear language on this

there is no confusion at all, we stick by the rules, we simply dispute this new rule of 24 hours which seems to have appeared out of nowhere.

If it was always there but unwritten it seems to be pretty harsh! I would like to know what other unwritten rules i can be banned for please, otherwise you have us at a real disadvantage!

I mean really are we not allowed to play gamers with an 'f' third in from the right on every second Tuesday after Good Friday... I can not see the written rule but who knows these days!?

I'll be honest the case of there being no rule relating to babysitter and 24 hours is far more firm than the case for Teammates not being able to play for each other .. i am at a loss at your bringing up of this red-herring James.

[jiminski]

i want one rule for all. babysitting an account is for extended periods away, a turn is not to be taken by anyone in the same game.

as it is now the most vocal players regarding exempting sequential teams games from the same rule as everyone else seems to be those who run multiple accounts. they are protecting their arse, fair enough.

but why are you in such a huff about it detlaf ?

shhh

[wicked]

Jim, the 24-hour wording was my fault. It's always been simpler to write 24 hours since that's the minimum time per casual turn, meaning if you're going to be away so that you miss a turn (i.e. more than 24 hours since it's assumed you'll take all your turns before your absence when leaving on vacation, which is the original reason for getting a sitter), then you can get a sitter, as long as they're not your opponent. Obviously for emergencies, leniency is allowed. Laziness or being tired however, is not an emergency. That's what we've always advertised on the forums and we thought it was clear, but apparently not. It's when people start getting sitters for when they'll be gone for less than 24 hours, that we start to get into some misuse of the system. Not meaning that everyone who gets a sitter for less than a 24-hr absence is cheating, but that's where we start to see problems from some. Don't worry, I've stopped using the "24 hour" wording, as that seems to be causing confusion.

[jiminski]

Jim, the 24-hour wording was my fault. It's always been simpler to write 24 hours since that's the minimum time per casual turn, meaning if you're going to be away so that you miss a turn (i.e. more than 24 hours since it's assumed you'll take all your turns before your absence when leaving on vacation, which is the original reason for getting a sitter), then you can get a sitter, as long as they're not your opponent. Obviously for emergencies, leniency is allowed. Laziness or being tired however, is not an emergency. That's what we've always advertised on the forums and we thought it was clear, but apparently not. It's when people start getting sitters for when they'll be gone for less than 24 hours, that we start to get into some misuse of the system. Not meaning that everyone who gets a sitter for less than a 24-hr absence is cheating, but that's where we start to see problems from some. Don't worry, I've stopped using the "24 hour" wording, as that seems to be causing confusion.

thank you sugar!

[James Vazquez]

i have sought clarification and have been informed that it has been said in the past by mods that teammates can take turns for eachother. Sorry for my confusion. I have never sought this as i was under the impression that my interpretation was the rule. It made perfect sense to me.

As far as red herring i dont like much fish red or any other color

I do see potential for abuse in the practice of sitting for teammates. Maybe not in a single game strategy but in a overall practice. My personal opinion is all i'm stating here.

[detlef]

i want one rule for all. babysitting an account is for extended periods away, a turn is not to be taken by anyone in the same game.

as it is now the most vocal players regarding exempting sequential teams games from the same rule as everyone else seems to be those who run multiple accounts. they are protecting their arse, fair enough.

but why are you in such a huff about it detlaf ?

I'm pretty freaking vocal about it and have never cheated nor been accused of cheating. Why am I in a huff? Because I already have to deal with enough rules in my daily life. I don't need to have my enjoyment of an on-line game diminished because a bunch of hand wringers want to invent reasons why what I do might affect others negatively.

So, I've already explained a number of times in this thread why my usual doubles partner and I "cheat" in this manner in entirely harmless ways. Here's another one. The whole business about signing in as your partner to start new games.

So, one of us pms the other and says, "Let's find a few games to get into." Let's say he sends that message to me. For the record, we don't live in the same time zone. So, at any rate, I wake up, log in and see the message, so I go looking around for games. Maybe I see a fun looking game in the public section with two spots left. I've got one of two choices, either I sign up and then log in as him and sign him up, or, I can "do the right thing" and wait 3 hours until he wakes up and hope the game still has the openings (it won't) and hope he decides to log in immediately. Of course, I don't want to just sign up without him because I'm not looking for a random partner, I'm looking to start a game with my usual partner. So, kindly explain exactly who is hurt by the fact that I sign in as him and join a doubles game that he and I decided that I was going to go find us.

That, is my huff. My huff is that I have to tolerate this BS from you. That, because a few jerk-offs have ruffled the egos of others by making page 1 using less than noble means, you guys need to get in my dish about how I play this game. Here's an idea, stop caring about the rankings of those who employ shady tactics. To the extent that their cheating actually costs you games, I completely understand why you should care. However, the best you guys can come up with is that some players will take over a lower ranked players account and thus get more points for wins than they'd get with a real partner. Who the hell cares? Play for yourself. Play for the enjoyment of winning fairly and the challenge of outwitting others at a game. If some low life wants to bend the rules so he can feel good about making page one, just feel sorry for him and move on.

[detlef]

Oh, and for the record, rule or not, I will continue to sign in as my partner to join public or private team games because it's pretty much the absolute most convenient way to join team games together. If I log in and see it's his turn in a doubles game we're in and understand that we've both agreed what he was going to do, for the sake of keeping the game moving, I will continue to log in and make his move out of courtesy for my opponents. In fact, the only reason why I won't is if it's a critical juncture in the game and then only because those moves are the most fun and I know that I'd be pissed if he poached my turn in such a situation.

So, there you have it. If you make this rule, go ahead and send me my first warning because I can assure you that I'll deserve it.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

another case of team babysitting account abuse. mods, when will this BS will stop? I cant start or join any new team games because its to the point where I have no idea who I am actually playing against. I see players on my ignore list making moves for other accounts they are playing for. I dont want to play with these players. That is why they are on ignore.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50352

[owenshooter]

another case of team babysitting account abuse. mods, when will this BS will stop? I cant start or join any new team games because its to the point where I have no idea who I am actually playing against. I see players on my ignore list making moves for other accounts they are playing for. I dont want to play with these players. That is why they are on ignore.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50352

how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over? we read it the first 3 times. add something new to the discussion that is pertinent or timely, not the same thing copy and pasted. thank you!-0

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

another case of team babysitting account abuse. mods, when will this BS will stop? I cant start or join any new team games because its to the point where I have no idea who I am actually playing against. I see players on my ignore list making moves for other accounts they are playing for. I dont want to play with these players. That is why they are on ignore.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50352

how many times are you going to say the same thing over and over and over? we read it the first 3 times. add something new to the discussion that is pertinent or timely, not the same thing copy and pasted. thank you!-0

I believe in documentation of every example. As I have time, I will bring to the attention of the mods every example until it is proven that baby sitting accounts is being abused in every type of game including sequntial like the example I just showen in the abuse forum. your days are almost over for making moves for 3 accounts.

[detlef]

another case of team babysitting account abuse. mods, when will this BS will stop? I cant start or join any new team games because its to the point where I have no idea who I am actually playing against. I see players on my ignore list making moves for other accounts they are playing for. I dont want to play with these players. That is why they are on ignore.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50352

Perhaps you need to look inside yourself and examine why you have so many people on ignore rather advocate dogmatic rules that restrict well-meaning people's enjoyment of an on-line game.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

another case of team babysitting account abuse. mods, when will this BS will stop? I cant start or join any new team games because its to the point where I have no idea who I am actually playing against. I see players on my ignore list making moves for other accounts they are playing for. I dont want to play with these players. That is why they are on ignore.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=50352

Perhaps you need to look inside yourself and examine why you have so many people on ignore rather advocate dogmatic rules that restrict well-meaning people's enjoyment of an on-line game.

players abousing the rules is against my "enjoyment". and they will stay on ignore until the abuse is no longer permitted on this site. The "enjoyment" works both ways and im tired of being abused by players that think it is cool to make all the moves for the entire team against me.

[owenshooter]

I believe in documentation of every example. As I have time, I will bring to the attention of the mods every example until it is proven that baby sitting accounts is being abused in every type of game including sequntial like the example I just showen in the abuse forum. your days are almost over for making moves for 3 accounts.

what are you talking about? show me where i have ever made moves for 3 accounts in one game. you have literally lost your mind. my main concern was the 24 hour "unwritten rule", and that seems to be resolved. and i truly don't care if it ends up that someone not in the game/on my team has to babysit my account for games, so be it. i just care that i be able to have members of my clan, team mates i trust (not in the same game), be able to take my turn when RL issues crop up and several turns will be missed. soooo, i have no idea what "documentation" you have on me making moves for 3 accounts in one game, because that is just crap. i welcome anyone, hunters included to find one example. you are talking out of your ass JR, and you are looking ridiculous.-0

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I will destroy every excuse you come up with. I do it for a living. The bottom line is, you guys want to make moves for the entire team and it is not fair to the team you are playing against. If I played 3 accounts like SkyT, than I would almost never lose a game like he has prooven.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I believe in documentation of every example. As I have time, I will bring to the attention of the mods every example until it is proven that baby sitting accounts is being abused in every type of game including sequntial like the example I just showen in the abuse forum. your days are almost over for making moves for 3 accounts.

what are you talking about? show me where i have ever made moves for 3 accounts in one game. you have literally lost your mind. my main concern was the 24 hour "unwritten rule", and that seems to be resolved. and i truly don't care if it ends up that someone not in the game/on my team has to babysit my account for games, so be it. i just care that i be able to have members of my clan, team mates i trust (not in the same game), be able to take my turn when RL issues crop up and several turns will be missed. soooo, i have no idea what "documentation" you have on me making moves for 3 accounts in one game, because that is just crap. i welcome anyone, hunters included to find one example. you are talking out of your ass JR, and you are looking ridiculous.-0

nowhere in this quote does it single out you. It is in reference to everyone in general. Little paranoid?