St Patty's Day and Das Schloss(B)

[Ace Rimmer]

If the people who run the website ask you not to do something then just do what they say.

I'm cool with that. I can understand the mods/admins telling the userbase not to create games. I do have an issue with the heavy-handedness laid down by Andy in his PM, telling users that they face a 1 month ban for doing something THEY WERE NEVER TOLD THEY COULD NOT DO. There wasn't a friendly "Hey, this is considered a bug, and we are telling people so they stop". This also goes against the CC guidelines for bans, because I am fairly certain that at least one user in question has never received a 24h ban, which is the first ban length. Then we have the issue of previous bugs that were/are ignored although they were well known.

We're seeing an example of inconsistency here by the admins/mods. I know that's not a big surprise to many, but pointing it out. If any of you can show where the logic in my statements lie, please feel free to do so.

Jake

[AndyDufresne]

All warnings were sent out. No Vacations were issued for this. Deliberate Bug Abuse would be a Major Infraction, thus a Month Vacation if it was continued.

Those that received Warnings were all nearly responsive. Only a select few thought we were out to get them. Really, just comes down to common sense, and of those that received warnings, the majority were fine with the Warning.

I don't see the inconsistency.


--Andy

[karel]

not are fault,i'll keep playing. St.patty day maps as long as they are out,if you dont want people playing them.....REMOVE THEM

Its just that simple

[lord voldemort]

I can assure you no person has received a forum ban for this issue. The stern warning was your warning not to create games. Not everything on cc needs to be all pretty and lovely.

@ stah....my whole point is that your shouldnt need a reason to have to follow a request. halloween isnt a holiday specific map....Its just a map created by cairns for funsies...that we happen to use to run a speed weekend over halloween.


I fail to see how we (team cc) can be unfair and not logical in this issue. We have warned everyone who created these games...How are we not being logical by not wanting maps to be played that arent normally. I feel like that all reason has gone out the window with the majority of posters. And they are just jumping on the next lets bag the admin of cc issue.

[stahrgazer]

Deliberate Bug Abuse would be a Major Infraction, thus a Month Vacation if it was continued.

I don't see the inconsistency.

--Andy

Let me help you here, then, Andy.
The inconsistency is that the site said that the deliberate freestyle double-turn BUG use was not abuse since the programming allowed it even if the double turn was an unintended use of the game. The programming is now allowing games to be made that the site didn't intend to be made, and suddenly using that is not use but abuse.

As I told LV, I'm not joining the games. I'm not advocating that people join those games. I'm advocating, as I often do, for the site admin to start realizing your inconsistencies; if you do, and start correcting those, you'd probably see a lot more cooperation with a lot less grumpy-making posts.

[karel]

[stahrgazer]

The stern warning was your warning not to create games. Not everything on cc needs to be all pretty and lovely.

@ stah....my whole point is that your shouldnt need a reason to have to follow a request.

And THAT, my friend, is treating ppl like children rather than treating them like the mature adults your prior post said you hoped they'd be... another inconsistency.

[AndyDufresne]

stahrgazer, you and I rarely see eye-to-eye, so I don't expect to win you over.

But using and abusing the system in ways it was not meant, is bug abuse. This may have been accidental, hence only Warnings sent out. However, deliberately abusing the bug after the warnings comes with consequences, like abusing any system does. But so far, it looks like everyone has appropriately heeded the warnings.


--Andy

[stahrgazer]

stahrgazer, you and I rarely see eye-to-eye, so I don't expect to win you over.
--Andy

I'm on your side a lot more than you wish to realize, Andy, and that's just sad for you.

I still don't see how St. P creation is abuse when freestyle doubleturns wasn't abuse.

[Night Strike]

The inconsistency is that the site said that the deliberate freestyle double-turn BUG use was not abuse since the programming allowed it even if the double turn was an unintended use of the game. The programming is now allowing games to be made that the site didn't intend to be made, and suddenly using that is not use but abuse.

Stahr, you act like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. These maps were clearly not present on the Start a Game page, yet people found a way to manipulate things and make the games. That is most definitely an abuse. The maps were hidden from public use, so circumventing those blocks is clearly exploiting a bug. The freestyle double-turn issue was just something that was not closed. It was open for anybody to take advantage of as it was not hidden. Lack assumed the maps were hidden enough to be considered closed. It's not his fault that people deliberately exploited a work-around to play on those maps. And those people who did that do deserve warnings for their actions (and their games deleted in my opinion).

[firth4eva]

The inconsistency is that the site said that the deliberate freestyle double-turn BUG use was not abuse since the programming allowed it even if the double turn was an unintended use of the game. The programming is now allowing games to be made that the site didn't intend to be made, and suddenly using that is not use but abuse.

Stahr, you act like you're arguing just for the sake of arguing. These maps were clearly not present on the Start a Game page, yet people found a way to manipulate things and make the games. That is most definitely an abuse. The maps were hidden from public use, so circumventing those blocks is clearly exploiting a bug. The freestyle double-turn issue was just something that was not closed. It was open for anybody to take advantage of as it was not hidden. Lack assumed the maps were hidden enough to be considered closed. It's not his fault that people deliberately exploited a work-around to play on those maps. And those people who did that do deserve warnings for their actions (and their games deleted in my opinion).

What if you were tricked into joining?

[Rocketry]

CC has loads of good maps but St Pats isn't one of them in my opinion, I don't really understand why so many people even want to play it.

Rocket.

[stahrgazer]

These maps were clearly not present on the Start a Game page, yet people found a way to manipulate things and make the games... And those people who did that do deserve warnings for their actions (and their games deleted in my opinion).

Ah, that explains the difference. Since I never tried to start one of the games, I did not realize that the start-game browser wasn't allowing those to start, had no clue that some sort of intentional manipulation was taking place to circumvent the normal start-game process.

Arguing for the sake of arguing? Not at all. Arguing for reasonable clarity and consistency, yes.

Thanks for providing the rationale for the difference between one bug and another.
Your description was a lot more explanatory than, "using a bug is abusing the bug." Had someone said that in the first place, I wouldn't have felt a need to point out inconsistencies to get to the reason behind the difference, now, would I?

[Night Strike]

These maps were clearly not present on the Start a Game page, yet people found a way to manipulate things and make the games... And those people who did that do deserve warnings for their actions (and their games deleted in my opinion).

Ah, that explains the difference. Since I never tried to start one of the games, I did not realize that the start-game browser wasn't allowing those to start, had no clue that some sort of intentional manipulation was taking place to circumvent the normal start-game process.

Arguing for the sake of arguing? Not at all. Arguing for reasonable clarity and consistency, yes.

I had just figured that anyone who was interested in playing on the map had already tried to make games on it from the Start a Game page and noticed the lack of option. I guess not everybody would have tried that route.

To be fair, there was a legitimate bug after the new classic was unveiled: all of the map thumbnails were not aligned with the correct map file, which caused those two maps to reappear. Once that was fixed, some people found a different way to play the maps, which is what was the exploitation (and I believe are the only cases that got warnings).

[obliterationX]

All warnings were sent out. No Vacations were issued for this. Deliberate Bug Abuse would be a Major Infraction, thus a Month Vacation if it was continued.

Those that received Warnings were all nearly responsive. Only a select few thought we were out to get them. Really, just comes down to common sense, and of those that received warnings, the majority were fine with the Warning.

I don't see the inconsistency.


--Andy

Why do you capitalise "Warnings", but after, you do not?

Talk about inconsistency...

[stahrgazer]

[I had just figured that anyone who was interested in playing on the map had already tried to make games on it from the Start a Game page and noticed the lack of option. I guess not everybody would have tried that route.

To be fair, there was a legitimate bug after the new classic was unveiled: all of the map thumbnails were not aligned with the correct map file, which caused those two maps to reappear. Once that was fixed, some people found a different way to play the maps, which is what was the exploitation (and I believe are the only cases that got warnings).

I'm not all that interested in playing the maps; I might have been, but since the person doing the inviting said at the same time, "Admin doesn't want us playing those maps," I didn't join. At the time, I'd seen nothing from CC saying not to play the maps and nothing about why not to play the maps.

The first I saw was this thread about warnings of 30-day bans or threats thereof, which on surface seemed highly unjust.

In an earlier post in here, LV said "not everything has to be nice," or something like that, to justify why the first mention was a sternly worded, abusive-sounding warning.

Why can't every first announcement be nice? Why not treat your clients (those who use CC) like mature, thinking humans at the start of any concern, rather than ferociously dictate terms that sound erratic and inconsistent like other rulings that have been erratic or inconsistent?

Why automatically assume, as you did, that everyone who has a legitimate argument is doing so just for the sake of arguing? Why not explain early on the reason one bug does differ from another bug?

If those things had been done, those of us who didn't try to exploit either the accepted (fs doubleturn) bug or the non-accepted (create games outside of start-game) would understand and be able to support the CC stance on this bug from the start; rather than feel need to question what looked like yet another inconsistency in CC rulings until we received a logically supportable rationale.

Will there still be those who, even understanding, want to punch the disallowed button? *gazes down the thread* Yup, apparently so. So now, when those folks are warned, warnings escalated, and vacations issued, the rest of us can understand.

[AndyDufresne]

All warnings were sent out. No Vacations were issued for this. Deliberate Bug Abuse would be a Major Infraction, thus a Month Vacation if it was continued.

Those that received Warnings were all nearly responsive. Only a select few thought we were out to get them. Really, just comes down to common sense, and of those that received warnings, the majority were fine with the Warning.

I don't see the inconsistency.


--Andy

Why do you capitalise "Warnings", but after, you do not?

Talk about inconsistency...

Capitalized warning to add emphasis to the specific warning of discussion. If you'd like to troll, there are many other websites available for you out there.

At the time, I'd seen nothing from CC saying not to play the maps and nothing about why not to play the maps.

The Maps were labeled "closed" --- which was Conquer Club saying these maps are not available for legal play at this time.

This really hasn't been an issue with the majority of the people that played games on those Closed maps, so lets not make a mountain into a mole hill just to keep arguing for the sake of it.




--Andy

[stahrgazer]

[The Maps were labeled "closed" --- which was Conquer Club saying these maps are not available for legal play at this time.

Really? Where were the labels? Where was the reasoning?

This really hasn't been an issue with the majority of the people that played games on those Closed maps, so lets not make a mountain into a mole hill just to keep arguing for the sake of it.

I've already said I wasn't arguing for the sake of arguing, I was, as always, arguing for some logical rationale, reasoning, and fairness. Oh, darn, I keep forgetting, that is the area we usually disagree: you seem to favor moodswings while I prefer consistency and logic.

[tdans]

wow... nice going stahr.... i find it funny to watch the mods repeating themselves actually everyone is repeating themselves basically... it seems like you both cant get your point across

[jammyjames]

So now that all this kerfuffle is out... can someone please tell me where i can find the das schloss map?

awaiting some answers

[stahrgazer]

So now that all this kerfuffle is out... can someone please tell me where i can find the das schloss map?

awaiting some answers

In the closed sections, wherever that is. However, please refrain from punching the button until CC can get it fixed and placed into the open section so that the game you start is guaranteed to eventually end... because that's the bug (I had to ask an outside source about why the map is closed). Das Schloss is closed because sometimes the game puts players in start positions that can't be killed, so if two players start on one of those start positions, neither can win so the game won't end.

It's a reasonable explanation for why NOT to play the map at this time... alot more reasonable than, "because momma told me not to."

Also, there's precedent for the warnings. Deliberately starting a game that you know can't end is holding your opponents hostage; hostage-holding has been one of the site's unwritten abuse rules forever.

(See the written rules for the list of unwritten rules for proof of that.)

[obliterationX]

All warnings were sent out. No Vacations were issued for this. Deliberate Bug Abuse would be a Major Infraction, thus a Month Vacation if it was continued.

Those that received Warnings were all nearly responsive. Only a select few thought we were out to get them. Really, just comes down to common sense, and of those that received warnings, the majority were fine with the Warning.

I don't see the inconsistency.


--Andy

Why do you capitalise "Warnings", but after, you do not?

Talk about inconsistency...

Capitalized warning to add emphasis to the specific warning of discussion. If you'd like to troll, there are many other websites available for you out there.

Really? If you could please list a few of them, I'd be obliged.



Thank you, and good day.

[jammyjames]

So now that all this kerfuffle is out... can someone please tell me where i can find the das schloss map?

awaiting some answers

In the closed sections, wherever that is. However, please refrain from punching the button until CC can get it fixed and placed into the open section so that the game you start is guaranteed to eventually end... because that's the bug (I had to ask an outside source about why the map is closed). Das Schloss is closed because sometimes the game puts players in start positions that can't be killed, so if two players start on one of those start positions, neither can win so the game won't end.

It's a reasonable explanation for why NOT to play the map at this time... alot more reasonable than, "because momma told me not to."

Also, there's precedent for the warnings. Deliberately starting a game that you know can't end is holding your opponents hostage; hostage-holding has been one of the site's unwritten abuse rules forever.

(See the written rules for the list of unwritten rules for proof of that.)

meh dont care about warnings or being banned. im gone from the site within a week id say.. only got 5 games of a series left to play.

[denominator]

What I cannot understand is why these maps that are so liked are just not kept in active maps.

140+ maps that there is no reason we can't have 2 more

Das is supposed to be getting a major update, but all games had to finish before it could be uploaded because of how drastic the changes were. People exploiting this bug to play on this map are actually stalling the re-release of this map.

St Patty's map was a specially designed map for a unique holiday. It was a privately developed map, so as such, it was for limited release only. The map did not go through the full foundry process to earn full-time playability.

I'm calling bullshit on that one.

With the exception of all the new games on Das Schloss, the last one ended on June 17,2009 (Game 2485015). So it certainly wasn't all the games that had to finish before the newest one could be uploaded.

In fact, the newest version of the map went through all the stages and was "quenched" on October 12, 2009, which means it's been ready to go and hasn't for almost 3 months now.

At this point, since all the games on it have been created by some illegitimate method (I am in a number of them - having followed the map for some time, I jumped in a bunch of the games as soon as I saw them available), AND all the games are on the old version of the map, why not just delete all the games? If you're going to claim that the games are illegal and that they are holding up the release of the map, get rid of them. Or, why not just update the map and see what happens to the active games. If they're illegal, it doesn't matter if a map change fucks the game up.

As for St. Patrick's Day, if the map didn't go through the full foundry process it shouldn't have been up in the first place. That's the point of the foundry process, to make quality maps. Was this intentional, or did somebody "find a work-around" there too to put the map into play? Also, since the map seems to have a rather large group of followers, why not throw it through the foundry process now and put it back up? Or delete it entirely so that this doesn't happen again?

Finally, as for the whole management of the issue thing, I have to agree with the community here that it was not handled very well. I, like many others, was completely unaware that the maps had been created illegally in the first place. I simply saw that there were games to join and went ahead and joined them.

I had just figured that anyone who was interested in playing on the map had already tried to make games on it from the Start a Game page and noticed the lack of option. I guess not everybody would have tried that route.

I tried that too. But I saw that I couldn't create maps on it, and went no further that route. Did that stop me from joining? Of course not.

Instead of CC's powers that be actually coming out and stating that these games shouldn't exist and not to join them, they came out and said that the people exploiting the system were going to be punished. Of all the people in said games, 90% of us had no idea that the system was being exploited, or what the issue was.

[AAFitz]

So now that all this kerfuffle is out... can someone please tell me where i can find the das schloss map?

awaiting some answers

In the closed sections, wherever that is. However, please refrain from punching the button until CC can get it fixed and placed into the open section so that the game you start is guaranteed to eventually end... because that's the bug (I had to ask an outside source about why the map is closed). Das Schloss is closed because sometimes the game puts players in start positions that can't be killed, so if two players start on one of those start positions, neither can win so the game won't end.

It's a reasonable explanation for why NOT to play the map at this time... alot more reasonable than, "because momma told me not to."

Also, there's precedent for the warnings. Deliberately starting a game that you know can't end is holding your opponents hostage; hostage-holding has been one of the site's unwritten abuse rules forever.

(See the written rules for the list of unwritten rules for proof of that.)

\

that is indeed a very clever interpretation, however, one would have to know that starting the game would result in it not ending, to be guilty of hostage holding, even under the strictest translation. However, joining a map that shouldnt be open certainly can be seen as an abuse of game... though I think quantity really needs to be looked at. Further, the holiday really did change things in my opinion.

My suggestion would be for some serious leniency, but since I played a couple on each myself... perhaps Im slightly biased.

On this one, there really is a lot of plausible deniability I would say. More so than usual. So many changes take place on holidays that it really isnt a stretch for some to think it was purposeful...which is exactly what I thought the first time the leprechauns came out.