The 12 hour fog 'rule'

[trapyoung]

What? Re read my post. I am one of those that create the game. That get the games joined. That normally don't get 1st move or see's the drop. What you are complaining about is part of the fun of fog. Counting terts and reading logs and guessing the rest.

AND actually a 12 hour fog rule could conceivably cause a missed turn when it shouldn't. Not everyone is able to play CC except in a limited window of time.

Reread my post. I agree counting territories and reading logs can be fun, but in any other strategy based fog game you wouldn't guess with where you began. It puts you at a crippling disadvantage. In real war, while Japan may have wiped out some of the American flight and infrastructure to communicate what was going on there, the Americans would at least know what they DID have there.

Frankly, I don't care about your idiosyncratic desire to be put at a strategic disadvantage in fog games. Some players don't mind playing against multi's because it guarantees at least 2 idiots on the opposition. But just because you or I may not care about something does not make the action not a game of the system.

Finally, you saying a 12 hour fog rule may cause a missed turn and the limited time window is a valid point. That's why I indicated that many honorable players actually list territories or what someone would have seen based on where their territories were if they cannot wait for the other team to glimpse the map.

Of all the bullshit tactics to be up in arms over this one seems comparatively mild especially when compared to some of the bullshit freestyle skirting that goes on.

The 12 hour rule is a courtesy it's not an absolute and should not be treated as such. If it means that much to you don't create public foggy games. Make em private and negotiate those terms. If it were a rule it would be enforceable.

Just because there is more wrong with the site doesn't mean it should not be addressed. Hey, there's genocide in Africa so let's ignore poverty and hunger in your own community. Your reasoning is illogical; given the opportunity to remedy one ill, we should seize upon it. As for the rule being a "courtesy", yes, it is not an ingrained rule of the site. However, neither is the fact I have to give you good ratings or allow you to play games against me and while I feel rating system misuse and the foe list are idiotic components of the game, I become more prone to utilize these features when assholes are actively gaming the system.

Freestyle noob farming used to not be illegal, neither did Klobber foeing everyone to play against new recruits. Throughout the history of the site there have been loopholes and there have been asshats to seize upon those loopholes. Although there is nothing official against the tactic, does not make the move any less shady.

[wolfpack0530]

I'm pretty stunned at the amount of support for the bullshit play of grabbing a fog game late, lucking into first turn and then abusing the game. You may be able to tell from a fort how much some douche has, but you may or may not see that Red has 3 of 4 territories in a bonus, or there's a neutral and if you move and clear, you can fake someone into thinking you have the bonus and waste efforts there. If you can't wait, common courtesy would say to inform the other party about what they would have seen. It's just like other strategy games where fog of war is conducted, you see what happens at the beginning. It's just other games don't have games that begin while all members are not present and, therefore, the opportunity for abuse is present here. It's utter bullshit to game the system and defend it as no big deal and while I largely avoid the foe list and rating people, I've begun to use it accordingly. I don't whine in game chat, I may say something through team chat, but fact is the tactic is classless.

TY, i think you are wandering a bit off the beaten path and have not fully understood that everything that follows the bolded part, is a direct result of the bold part being true.

Waiting to grab the final spot is no guarantee to any advantage at all.
-there is a 50% chance your team goes second. = no advantage
-if you are "lucky" (as you put it) and get to see it first, there is a 15-20% chance that you or your team does not conquer a tert due to strategy or dice fail (how often does a 6v3 fail?)
-if you are lucky enough to go first, and conquer a tert, there is a % chance that you hide no information
-ect ect ect

So in reality, this bullshit tactic only results in a strategic advantage like 30% of the time, and even in those games, the advantage is likely minimal to the point where it can be evened up with the next 2-0 roll.

If someone wants to waste everyones time, and waste their own time making sure to sign up last, just to get such an insignificant advantage, then i say let them waste their time.
Keep in mind that most people fly through their turns when in a hurry and it is so easy to miss a 12 hr rule game when it is 1 of 60, that you should not assume that the team is being underhanded.

[wolfpack0530]

HOW IS THIS FOR A SOLUTION

since this rule is mostly about sportsmanship, how about we treat it like a reward, and not a penalty (forfiets, anger)

Agree in the challenge, if my clan observes the 12 hr rule throughout the entire challenge on its own volition, then that counts as a bonus point, or 2 points, or whatever is decided on. then the other clan has the option to forfeit the chance at those bonus points and break the rule. if both clans observe the rule, both get the points, and it is a wash.

this is the glass half full approach bitches

[InsomniaRed]

How about we just give you a gold star so you still get the validation?

[trapyoung]

TY, i think you are wandering a bit off the beaten path and have not fully understood that everything that follows the bolded part, is a direct result of the bold part being true.

Waiting to grab the final spot is no guarantee to any advantage at all.
-there is a 50% chance your team goes second. = no advantage
-if you are "lucky" (as you put it) and get to see it first, there is a 15-20% chance that you or your team does not conquer a tert due to strategy or dice fail (how often does a 6v3 fail?)
-if you are lucky enough to go first, and conquer a tert, there is a % chance that you hide no information
-ect ect ect

So in reality, this bullshit tactic only results in a strategic advantage like 30% of the time, and even in those games, the advantage is likely minimal to the point where it can be evened up with the next 2-0 roll.

50% your team goes second. 15-20% you do not conquer a territory. And yes, there is a possibility you hide no information.

But what does Team 1 get? Absolutely zero benefit. In fact, I would say that while you confer a strategic advantage to Team 2 30% of the time, you also confer a strategic disadvantage to Team 1 that same percent of the time. So instead of having Team 2 be +1, really the detriment to Team 1 makes Team 1 -1, spreading the overall impact to 2 pts. Those are just arbitrary numbers, but it's not the benefit of first turn or dropping a small bonus; people may have to fight ghost bonuses, venture guesses as to where neutrals are, amongst other things. Yes, Team 1 may be put at this disadvantage only 50% of the time, but that does skew the game in Team 2's favor.

All I want is an equitable game for both teams where non-luck based factors are taken out of the equation. This is one of those instances.

As for your bonus points system, I didn't really follow that. I don't agree with forfeits either, but common courtesy would demand you give your opponent a sporting chance and inform them on what happened if you could not leave them enough time or goofed on accident. It is the golden rule, extend decency to others - and frankly, the better the opponent, the more likely abusing the fog glitch is to confer an actual advantage because the other team will be able to know how to exploit the situation. And if you are good enough to capitalize on the loophole, you are good enough to compete on a level playing field and leave those tactics behind. If you are inexperienced and goof, well there are thousands of people willing to (jump down your throat) correct you in etiquette but quite frankly, the caliber of player defending the fog tactic is shocking and quite unbecoming.

[L M S]

How about don't play fog?

[trapyoung]

How about don't play fog?

Because fog is actual a better game play style and many clans and tournaments insist on the format. My favorite games are fog team or standard games where you need to read the log to make a strategic play, make a bonus bust, or try for an elimination and guess where the player likely is.

Unfortunately, for the game to start and give someone first look and deprive others of a glance sorely undermines the format.

And like earlier, just because I don't like people cutting me off on the highway doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving. First turn manipulation is not a given in the fog format, just as letting your turn run out in freestyle and receiving first move was not something that had to be programmed into freestyle games. The code can be and, more importantly, SHOULD BE amended to rectify this flaw. I shouldn't have to make manual fog games to see the map beforehand and also negotiate players to drop 2 armies on each territory to reflect an automatic drop, it's idiotic and should be rectified either through programming changes or through CC custom.

[L M S]

How about don't play fog?

Because fog is actual a better game play style and many clans and tournaments insist on the format. My favorite games are fog team or standard games where you need to read the log to make a strategic play, make a bonus bust, or try for an elimination and guess where the player likely is.

Unfortunately, for the game to start and give someone first look and deprive others of a glance sorely undermines the format.

And like earlier, just because I don't like people cutting me off on the highway doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving. First turn manipulation is not a given in the fog format, just as letting your turn run out in freestyle and receiving first move was not something that had to be programmed into freestyle games. The code can be and, more importantly, SHOULD BE amended to rectify this flaw. I shouldn't have to make manual fog games to see the map beforehand and also negotiate players to drop 2 armies on each territory to reflect an automatic drop, it's idiotic and should be rectified either through programming changes or through CC custom.

Fair enough then.

Reality is kinda on Wolf's side here (I can't believe I'm writing that) in the grand scheme its not that big of a deal, to make such a big deal about.

I just feel like they way people act when this non-rule is broken is asinine, that's my beef, not the non-rule itself. We need a fair and simple solution to fix the non-rule so it is not abused, therefore not over-reacted too.

The only way so far is to deal with it as is and hope the opponent adherers to the non-rule rule.

[jefjef]

Instead of complaining about this and trying to create a rule that delays games how about suggest an "Auto Snap shot" that the server takes and automatically puts in chat for all to access when the game is initiated. Or a "View drop" feature of sorts.

Problem solved.

[Leehar]

Instead of complaining about this and trying to create a rule that delays games how about suggest an "Auto Snap shot" that the server takes and automatically puts in chat for all to access when the game is initiated. Or a "View drop" feature of sorts.

Problem solved.

Will some smart person just write a script that snaps a shot at the beginning of a fog game so we can get past this?

I'm almost positive that I read a post by Dako saying this couldn't be done. You'd have to enter the game for an auto-snap to initiate, but if you enter the game, you're already there to take a snapshot yourself.

[jefjef]

Instead of complaining about this and trying to create a rule that delays games how about suggest an "Auto Snap shot" that the server takes and automatically puts in chat for all to access when the game is initiated. Or a "View drop" feature of sorts.

Problem solved.

Will some smart person just write a script that snaps a shot at the beginning of a fog game so we can get past this?

I'm almost positive that I read a post by Dako saying this couldn't be done. You'd have to enter the game for an auto-snap to initiate, but if you enter the game, you're already there to take a snapshot yourself.

Thanks for pointing out that I don't read every post.

[IcePack]

How about don't play fog?

Because fog is actual a better game play style and many clans and tournaments insist on the format. My favorite games are fog team or standard games where you need to read the log to make a strategic play, make a bonus bust, or try for an elimination and guess where the player likely is.

Unfortunately, for the game to start and give someone first look and deprive others of a glance sorely undermines the format.

And like earlier, just because I don't like people cutting me off on the highway doesn't mean I'm going to stop driving. First turn manipulation is not a given in the fog format, just as letting your turn run out in freestyle and receiving first move was not something that had to be programmed into freestyle games. The code can be and, more importantly, SHOULD BE amended to rectify this flaw. I shouldn't have to make manual fog games to see the map beforehand and also negotiate players to drop 2 armies on each territory to reflect an automatic drop, it's idiotic and should be rectified either through programming changes or through CC custom.

Clearly you dont think its better, because its set up where you can take your turn. Its allowed, thats the game. If you're going to play fog, deal with it.

Its not a flaw, its how its set up. I see both sides of it cuz i play fog, and frankly i see a lot of people COMPLAIN about not having someone "give them a view" but its a lot of those same damn people i see TAKING THE TURNS and not waiting themselves.

Its part of the game, play sunny if you wanna see everything. I'm tired of hearing people whine about this.

IcePack

[trapyoung]

Clearly you dont think its better, because its set up where you can take your turn. Its allowed, thats the game. If you're going to play fog, deal with it.

Its not a flaw, its how its set up. I see both sides of it cuz i play fog, and frankly i see a lot of people COMPLAIN about not having someone "give them a view" but its a lot of those same damn people i see TAKING THE TURNS and not waiting themselves.

Its part of the game, play sunny if you wanna see everything. I'm tired of hearing people whine about this.

IcePack

You just repeated the same logical fallacy as discussed above. Your favorite thing on the menu at McDonald's may be the Big Mac, but you could still hate pickles. The thing is, there, you can ask for pickles to be taken off (and it will be about 30% of the time). Just because there is a negative feature of a game type does not mean that ultimately it is not an interesting or valuable game type.

Did you just completely ignore my analogy to freestyle? The only reason fog turns are how they are is because it was programmed that way. The way things currently are is not the only possible way things could be. That is just purely ignorant. Conquer Club is a code-based game and the code could reflect a better state of affairs. Have you ever played freestyle speed? Years ago someone could let the time expire and be granted first turn in the next round, a tactic perceived as cheap by many. Many complained and although there was much feet dragging, the code was altered to prevent such a situation. You know why? Because of the three options, (1) Rule change, (2) Custom and (3) Code Solutions, Lack found it easiest to code in a safeguard to prevent users from manipulating the loophole.

Quit being ignorant. Actually read my posts because I am not purely whining, I have presented a coherent argument and for you to (1) ignore the meat of my reasoning and (2) throw in irrelevant facts (like people who complain actually are those who violate the rule... see Game 8529253 by the way) just reinforces your overwhelming ineptitude regarding the situation. So to repeat because who knows what you'll actually read, IT IS NOT PART OF THE GAME - it's only how the game is currently coded and there is no reason to resign ourselves to the current game state.

[L M S]

Instead of complaining about this and trying to create a rule that delays games how about suggest an "Auto Snap shot" that the server takes and automatically puts in chat for all to access when the game is initiated. Or a "View drop" feature of sorts.

Problem solved.

Will some smart person just write a script that snaps a shot at the beginning of a fog game so we can get past this?

I'm almost positive that I read a post by Dako saying this couldn't be done. You'd have to enter the game for an auto-snap to initiate, but if you enter the game, you're already there to take a snapshot yourself.

You know what, this can work.
At some point, someone is going to go into the game yes? Can the script take the snap at that time and just make it public in the chat so BOTH teams can see it?
i.e.

Someone hits begin turn for the very first turn of the game and immediately a public snap is taken.
Possible solution or no?

[AndyDufresne]

How would the public snap work? I'm trying to get my head around it, but unsure how it would be able to keep information not in your privy zone private.


--Andy

[trapyoung]

It wouldn't because when Team 1 enters, they see a different map than Team 2 unless no territory is hidden by the fog at the beginning. Unless what is coded is the viewpoint from both teams and then it is restricted in who can view it to only the respective team, then it won't work. What should be done is that either the game allows you to view you pre-round position or the fog log should let you know what happens in territories that would have been visible to you if you had stayed and watched the turn by the opponent. Right now, if I own Territory A which is adjacent to Territory B and not hidden by fog, unless I watch the turn, when Team 2 drops 3 on Territory B, all the log says is 3 added to ? although watching it I would know where it was. Quite frankly the log should reflect the territory was not hidden by fog and therefore show Team 2 dropped 3 on Territory B. If you conquer A, the log will show you conquered A from B, but if you fort from either of those territories afterward, the log should not reflect that. As much as the site claims this is for the casual gamer, these inconsistencies are baffling and frustrating.

[L M S]

Well, I was just thinking that the problem seems to be not knowing what the map looked like before anything happened. Hence a snapshot of the map before anything had been done that both teams could view then extrapolate the information, based on the log, of what happened. Only on the first turn too, the rest is the responsibility if the individual teams. We don't want the computer to do everything for us do we? If you had that info then you would be able to read the log and determine what had actually happened insofar as territories captured or lost, from either perspective, based on the differences (show differences button).

There still has to be some degree of fog TY, that's the whole point of the setting and not knowing exactly how many troops were moved or to where cant be divulged in the chat...that defeats the purpose of the fog entirely.

Aside from instituting a set waiting period (terrible plan imo) to take first turns, what else do we have? I hope this discussion stays on the track of finding an equitable solution and does not deteriorate.

I do understand your point though as only terits visible to both teams at the start would be viewable in the public snap, it just seems like anything else would defeat the purpose of the fog.

[trapyoung]

Fog would still be fog. It's just when you move it into a "sunny" territory, then the log should actually reflect that, just like an individual who just happened to be on at the moment would have been able to tell. So if you fort from a territory I can't see, it would show forted from ? so I wouldn't know if it was Territory A, B, or X. It would actually force better behind the scenes forting and deployments.

But, as you say, maybe that's something we just have to live with. And I'm fine with that because that will encourage more attention to be paid to the map and log, which I like, despite the fact that the site is pandering to careless or the unengaged by having features such as show teammates' cards. HOWEVER, someone who is a poor communicator and would not share details in game chat should not be given a reprieve while someone who is unable to wait online for 24 hours for a game to begin is put at a disadvantage regarding where they were dropped and what they would have seen. I consider myself fairly skilled at interpreting the map and log, but if 40% of the map is hidden in fog and I lost 2 territories, f*ck if I know where they were or if we're on Route 66, which direction you came from or something.

So if you oppose the waiting period option and you don't want to revamp the log to reflect actual sunny information, then the alternative is to grant an initial view of the map through Rule, Custom or a Coded solution. Rule seems out of the question and so it should come down to common decency or a programmer getting off their ass to add an actually useful feature besides inventing new bullshit medals, and since it takes 5 years for a suggestion to run its course on this site, it seems the community should reflect some common decency and avoid the tactic and target abusers, much like how freestyle manipulation was targeted as an unfair practice by the community first and later by reprogramming the turn feature.

[shocked439]

What if the foggy log showed what territories of yours were taken? This has always bothered me a bit. It was my territory I should be able to know in the log which it was no need to have it as a ? in the log.

[trapyoung]

What if the foggy log showed what territories of yours were taken? This has always bothered me a bit. It was my territory I should be able to know in the log which it was no need to have it as a ? in the log.

It wouldn't because when Team 1 enters, they see a different map than Team 2 unless no territory is hidden by the fog at the beginning. Unless what is coded is the viewpoint from both teams and then it is restricted in who can view it to only the respective team, then it won't work. What should be done is that either the game allows you to view you pre-round position or the fog log should let you know what happens in territories that would have been visible to you if you had stayed and watched the turn by the opponent. Right now, if I own Territory A which is adjacent to Territory B and not hidden by fog, unless I watch the turn, when Team 2 drops 3 on Territory B, all the log says is 3 added to ? although watching it I would know where it was. Quite frankly the log should reflect the territory was not hidden by fog and therefore show Team 2 dropped 3 on Territory B. If you conquer A, the log will show you conquered A from B, but if you fort from either of those territories afterward, the log should not reflect that. As much as the site claims this is for the casual gamer, these inconsistencies are baffling and frustrating.

Seriously, read what I write. I honest to God just wrote that 3 posts above yours. I feel like I open my mouth and people hear white noise or the ocean.

[Gold Knight]

I dont see how a waiting period, similar to the first round of a manual game, would be such a terrible idea. Although I dont use any snapshots, BOB, or addons of the sort, it is at least nice to know where you start in a game. Basically having a button similar to "Begin Turn", though it would just be verification that you had checked the map. If all parties involved hit the button within 10 mins or 10 hours of the game initiating, it would start as soon as the last person checked in. If anything, this would prevent the excuse that the 12 hour rule effects the timeframe in which to take your turn, and still give everyone a chance to check the map and get their snapshots in if need be.

My clan in particular has never formally instituted a fog rule of any sort, but I can see where Trap and others come from in that while the player/team going first does not ALWAYS benefit from their first turn sight, the team(s) going after have zero chance of benefitting and only the chance of getting a disadvantage from the current system.

And as Trap said, I think its time we began to work on some useful gameplay add-ons than 45 new medals that contribute more clutter in our profiles.

[shocked439]

my bad trap, i was at work and playing from my phone. I didn't read all of your post. But having read it i think it's a great suggestion.

[owenshooter]

they should worry about the huge cheats/advantages that are going on in freestyle before worrying about something this silly...-the black jesus

[squishyg]

I would like to take this moment to state that I refuse to abide by this guideline. I do not have the time to wait to take turns on a casual gaming site simply to convenience my opponents. If this disqualifies me from any tourneys or clan wars, then fine by me.

[rdsrds2120]

I would like to take this moment to state that I refuse to abide by this guideline. I do not have the time to wait to take turns on a casual gaming site simply to convenience my opponents. If this disqualifies me from any tourneys or clan wars, then fine by me.

Here is what I would have said if squishy didn't say if first.

When you join a FoW game, you run your own risk, the same that you run the risk of losing the game. It may be courteous, but I neither follow this rule nor expect anyone else to during a game.

-rd