PERMABANS (though you did not know it!)

[mpjh]

I didn't know that Mr. Benn's nick was christ.

[AndyDufresne]

Noteworthy Posts since page 12/13, in order of appearance:

show: barterer2002 post

show: xelable post

show: ronc8649 post

show: Artimis post

show: xelable post

show: jiminski post

show: thegreekdog post

show: Mr Changsha post

show: thelastpatriot post

New Issues Raised:

• Who gets offended when, cited by A.sub and woodruff on page 14.
• What is offensive, isn't always bigoted, cited by xelable on page 14---"Context" is still key.
• Keep your personal information private when possible, responsibility, cited by Mr Changsha on page 17/18.

Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Community consultation/questionaire (Need more info).
• Increased punishment for reports when the abused party reports, to keep misunderstandings to a minimum (jiminski).
• Clarify bigotry rules, what is allowed, what isn't, the context, when, etc, via community consultation (thegreekdog).

--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Phewfta. Now, if you give me some time, I'll review the 3 summation eras I've posted and write up a main post for discussion---alright? But first, I need lunch.


--Andy

[mpjh]

Impressive.

[MrBenn]

Does/should the definition of bigotry be extended to include blasphemy?

christ no! i am not sure how it could. Could you give an example of how bigotry could be applicable to using blasphemous language?

Part of me is playing Devil's Advocate here.... but just because blasphemy may be considered socially acceptable to you, doesn't mean that all people will find it equally acceptable. Blasphemy could be construed as intolerance of a particular set of creeds of belief systems, and therefore fall under the bigotry umbrella.

And that's all I have to say about that.

No, it is all about civil rights.

I disagree: It's all about responsibility.
The moment somebody claims a right to something, it is usually in way of a direct condemnation/criticism and to effect a change in the behaviour/attitudes of others.
The moment somebody takes responsibility for something, it is usually an admission/desire to effect a personal change of behaviour/attitude.
The nuance is about taking personal responsibility for improvement, and to fall back on the religious metaphor of doing "unto others as you would have others do unto you."

[jiminski]

Does/should the definition of bigotry be extended to include blasphemy?

christ no! i am not sure how it could. Could you give an example of how bigotry could be applicable to using blasphemous language?

Part of me is playing Devil's Advocate here.... but just because blasphemy may be considered socially acceptable to you, doesn't mean that all people will find it equally acceptable. Blasphemy could be construed as intolerance of a particular set of creeds of belief systems, and therefore fall under the bigotry umbrella.

Yeas Mr Benn, i got your vague point I am just not sure how the dynamics of it works. It is really stretching the definition to make it fit under the umbrella. kind of like cutting a tab off to get a piece of puzzle to fit. - We have specific rules about religion in threads, many of us think they are too protective, but to protect people from blasphemy under laws of bigotry is too far a leap for me and simply just not relevant.
If you think they are could you explain the specific logic please?

[Timminz]

A couple thoughts.

1) In regards to what jiminski has been suggesting about not following 3rd party reports. I agree that we want to avoid over-reaction based on misunderstandings of a 3rd party, but the person whom comments are directed towards is not necessarily the only one who could be rightfully offended. For example, if you were to call pimpdave the n-word, I'm pretty certain that he would not be offended, but there are other members who would be, and rightfully so. Similarly, referring to a particularly bad turn as having, "gay dice" could rightfully offend homosexual members of the community. The dice aren't gay. They are shitty, or not good, or less than ideal. To use "gay" as a synonym for any of those things, is an insult to gay people.

2) I have seen comments a few times, along the lines of, "amongst certain groups, certain things may be said without offense, where if those same things were said in other places, or situations, they are deemed offensive." I strongly believe that in situations like that, people should consider CC to be a public arena. If you wouldn't say something within earshot of 100 strangers in real life, it's most likely not acceptable to say here either.

[pimpdave]

For example, if you were to call pimpdave the n-word, I'm pretty certain that he would not be offended,

Well, actually, I'd be shocked and would bristle a bit. It would make me feel uncomfortable, but no, I wouldn't up and deck the person who said it to me. I'd probably verbally confront them, but would let it go if it wasn't worth the trouble and just move on with my life.

But hey, here's an idea, why don't you just talk about your own goddamn self and not continue with this make shit up about pimpdave trend going on in here.

[jiminski]

....But hey, here's an idea, why don't you just talk about your own goddamn self and not continue with this make shit up about pimpdave trend going on in here.

heheh that made me chuckle.

[AndyDufresne]

Hold post. Moved to next page to keep next to each other.


--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Okay, so I've listed the three discussion eras below---for easy reference to particular noteworthy posts, issues, middle grounds, etc.

Era One Discussion
Era Two Discussion
Era Three Discussion

=====================================================

Era One, Issues Summation:

• Bigotry is more prevalent in CC than thought---a large portion occurs in Game Chats and PM, though some also occurrs in the Forums (I'm assumingly mostly GD, Off Topics, and Usergroups).
• Bigotry is ineffectively or inconsistently dealt with. I.E. Team CC does this, and/or Conquer Club in general does not offer enough tools (like the Foe List, Reporting Posts) to add to a user's arsenal to combat such issues.
• Bigotry should be punished more severely than other "No-No's" from the Community Guidelines.
  
  
  As for the otherside:
  
• Bigotry is being used by individuals to troll/spam/cause general chaos for fun.
• Bigotry is dealt with when reported.

Era One, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Possible addition of a "Report Link" in Active Games (hwhrhett).
• Increased punishment scale for Bigotry over other less community impacting No-No's (such as spamming) (many users contributed to this). A few scales proposed:
  • 1 Strike and Done (Bruceswar).
  • Small Initial Vacation, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (owenator, whitestazn88, owenshooter).
  • Middle Initial Vacation, Permanent Vacation (xxtig12683xx, squishyg).
  • Warning, Increased Vacation, Permanent Vacation (Andy Dufresne, General Stoneham).
  • Stick with the Current Scale of Punishment (barterer2002, Artimis)

=====================================================

Era Two, Issues Summation:

• Context of "gray" areas, cited by xelabale on page 8.
• Humor's role in all of this, cited by General Stoneham on page 12.

Era Two, Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Stern warnings first, followed by increased punishment, perhaps similar to what Timminz outlined, may be a middle ground we can all agree on to help the issue of Context and Humor---allows the user to understand what is acceptable and isn't.
  
• Possible additional and more use of the forum's censor feature.

======================================================

Era Three, Issues Summation:

• Who gets offended when, cited by A.sub and woodruff on page 14.
• What is offensive, isn't always bigoted, cited by xelable on page 14---"Context" is still key.
• Keep your personal information private when possible, responsibility, cited by Mr Changsha on page 17/18.

Middle Grounds Proposed:

• Community consultation/questionaire (Need more info).
• Increased punishment for reports when the abused party reports, to keep misunderstandings to a minimum (jiminski).
• Clarify bigotry rules, what is allowed, what isn't, the context, when, etc, via community consultation (thegreekdog).

--Andy

[AndyDufresne]

Alright, so I think my above post covers most everything that we have discussed. Forgive me if I've left something out--feel free to post about it.

So far, looking at the above post:

• Those who have responded would like to see Increased Severity of Punishment for Bigotry, due to it's sensitive nature on a user, group of users, and community as a whole. The exact scale is something open for discussion. See Era One.
• Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

Proposed Tool Additions:

• The addition a "Report Link" may be a worthwhile tool to have. Additional thoughts?
• More use of the Forum's Censor feature.
• Possible Community Consultation Questionaire. More details needed. Thoughts?
• Clarify Bigotry Rules via Community Consultation. Thoughts?

--Andy

[Timminz]

For example, if you were to call pimpdave the n-word, I'm pretty certain that he would not be offended,

Well, actually, I'd be shocked and would bristle a bit. It would make me feel uncomfortable, but no, I wouldn't up and deck the person who said it to me. I'd probably verbally confront them.

But hey, here's an idea, why don't you just talk about your own goddamn self and not continue with this make shit up about pimpdave trend going on in here.

Sorry Dave. That was not intended as a slight on you. I only used you as an example because you seem like someone who is not offended easily.

It's ironic that you now seem offended by it.

Regardless, the person in the example was not the point.

[Gozar]

Sorry Dave. That was not intended as a slight on you. I only used you as an example because you seem like someone who is not offended easily.

It's ironic that you now seem offended by it.

Regardless, the person in the example was not the point.

You can use my name Tim. I won't be offended.

And why do people use the term 'n-word', when we all know to which word they are referring. If a word is to be offensive, it still offensive no matter how disguised. Unless you are offended by the arrangement of letters, and not by the meaning behind it...

[AndyDufresne]

If I can, I'd like to steer the discussion towards the issues, middle grounds, and points posted above in my two posts. Lets keep working towards an end.


--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

[lancehoch]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

The only problem with this, is that people will avoid the words and use words with similar meanings, but different connotations or they will self censor and still imply the same thing. Should those people also receive warnings?

[thegreekdog]

The only problem with this, is that people will avoid the words and use words with similar meanings, but different connotations or they will self censor and still imply the same thing. Should those people also receive warnings?

I did not think of that, good point. I wish I had the wherewithall to figure out an alternative, but I can't.

[ronsizzle]

does tipper gore have any money in this site? is she the one leading this crusade?

if it aint broke! dont fix it!

why dont all of you in here realize that this is a GAMING SITE! if you start to enforce crazy rules with harsh punishments, you will see lost dividends.

let this go people.

and referring to the person that said "owenshooter didnt start this thread". he may as well have! i believe someone in his clan did. and the only reason for that was so people actually looked at it, rather than discarding it as another owen is crying AGAIN!

here is the solution. if you get offended at something as mild as nshooter, you should go hide in a cave somewhere and never come out.

this thread is made and supported by whiners, babies, and over sensitive freaks. i dont care if you call me white trash, or a cracker. i guess i am a bigger man, and more secure with myself than most.

GROW UP PEOPLE. let the mods do their jobs. and quit bashing them. they are mostly volunteers. but yet in every thread i see, i see this, "the mods do this, the mods do that, they dont do this, they dont do that". they do the best job they can. i stand by whatever they do here.

i think the right decision, is no decision.

[owenator]

In all seriousness, let's be honest, white people using the "N" word are called racists. But no one uses the "N" word more than "African Americans" themselves!

And pray tell, where would you find this information to be actually true?

I live near New Orleans. I have been many other places and nowhere is that word used more by their own race than here. If you think that I would say this just to make a racial statement, you couldn't be more wrong. If you think this isn't true, come see for yourself.

So, let me get this straight...out of 6 billion people in the world using New Orleans as your statistical figure, your so-called fact that the "N" word is more oft used by black people than anyone else? Ummm...yeah. I don't think so. That's just being ignorant Suzy.

[ronsizzle]

and btw, LET THE POLL DO THE WORK FOR YOU!

51 percent of the people say, LET IT GO!

[owenator]

If I can, I'd like to steer the discussion towards the issues, middle grounds, and points posted above in my two posts. Lets keep working towards an end.


--Andy

Andy, I think it was a very well put basis for providing a compromise towards an ugly situation. Thanks again for your never ceasing hard work. It certainly doesn't go unnoticed.

[GENERAL STONEHAM]

Andy, just a clarification on my particular two cents:

I think this point in particular is relevant:

Context and humor is key to avoid misunderstandings. This I think is something that has to be taken into account when discussing the Punishment Scale.

My point is that if we say, "You can't use/say ____" that should be the rule regardless of the context.

As Timminiz pointed out (I agree and am paraphrasing) - Think of CC as being a community of 1,000 people and that when you type something, those 1,000 people can "hear" it. As a crude example (and something that is not offensive to me) - Let's say another Greek person calls me a "sheep-effing boy-loving Spartan" all in good fun. If any of those terms are "banned" words, that person should be warned. It will keep "misunderstandings" to a minimum.

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Are we going to start banning words, because you're overly sensitive to certain words.

Perhaps, some of us feel that your avatar is politically incorrect and should be banned. Some might feel that mine is pornographic and should be tossed.

We all need to stop and think, before we start throwing posters out of the forum. C.C. needs to allow a diversity of opinion, not less of it.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will ....

[AndyDufresne]

I must depart soon, I've many things in real life I should during my days off. I hope to see focused discussion on my above two posts. If I came back and it was all solved, that would be lovely. But if not, I'll continue to work with you all.


--Andy

[thegreekdog]

Banned words?!?! Get real!

Saying and using a word, depending on the situation is what makes particular words bad.

Example:
1. Boy, it sure is fucking hot!

2. You're a fucking idiot!

First example, is not to be considered vulgar. Second example is vulgar.

Are we going to start banning words, because you're overly sensitive to certain words.

Perhaps, some of us feel that your avatar is politically incorrect and should be banned. Some might feel that mine is pornographic and should be tossed.

We all need to stop and think, before we start throwing posters out of the forum. C.C. needs to allow a diversity of opinion, not less of it.

Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will ....

Why yes Stoneham, you're absolutely correct. I agree with all of your points. I don't think any words should be banned, at all, in any context, including here on CC. I was simply offering my "solution" to the problem of rascism, bigory, et. al. on this site. If people don't want it, ban the words. It will work. The problem, as I see it, is that certain people don't think enough is being done to combat the rampant rascim (and other bigotry) on this site. I just don't see it, but, then I'm not a member of an accepted racial minority. However, if we want the rascism to stop, we must ban all words that could be considered rascist in any context. Including the "n" word and the "k" word and the whatever other word anyone can think of.

Otherwise, I guess we just stick with the status quo until anyone who is offended enough leaves CC.