What would happen if the CC Flame Wars forum was removed ?

[edbeard]

Anyone else find it really funny that a few of the flamers are giving the rest of them a bad name?

[jbrettlip]

You flamed me, outside of FW. But II don't really care enough to report the post. Not a US citizen? Get out of my country.

[trapyoung]

Anyone else find it really funny that a few of the flamers are giving the rest of them a bad name?

let's not be shy, names, names..

[Neoteny]

First, no, I'm not a republican. Not a US citizen.

I'll assume that these are the questions you mentioned which appear to be a ploy to get someone to flame you.

Just an old man, it seems.

How about we try this... Let's use FACTS to state our points as opposed to feelings or conjectures...

I'll start.

Flame Wars would be gone, so flaming would be gone? That's your ingenious peoples' opisions, right? No, but it'd certainly lower it and show that CC doesn't tolerate flaming at all. Currently it's OK to do as long as it's in Flame Wars. To many flamers this means it's ok to do it anywhere because the thread will get moved to flame wars or it's ok to flame until I'm told to stop.

How about this: you are predicting a need for increased moderation after the removal of Flame Wars. However, if the mods were doing what they were supposed to do and acting on their own rules, then those who consistently flame outside of the designated forum would already be banned. If the mods aren't doing the job effectively now, what makes you think they'll be capable of doing it after the removal of the forum. Additionally, there will be a constant influx of "immature" gamers, as you so self-righteously put it, that will not have a place to vent their boredom, and it will boil over into the other forums. Sure we will get tired of "revolting" at some point and give in like the good little risk-addicts that we are, but the dam will not be a perfect one. Less so because of the moderation.

Does appointing admins to control the site stop there from being friction? No (Just look at the Twill/Wicked Debacle.). No but they have 'powers' to control the forum and make sure rules are being followed.

Right...

Why you people think that just because there is no symptom means the disease would go away is ridiculous? This doesn't make sense. People are saying it will lessen the flaming. Just because you can't get rid of something entirely doesn't mean lowering it is not a good solution. The 'problem' (notice the ' ' marks) is that flaming occurs outside of flame wars. Apparently having a place to do flaming is not good enough for many people. This 'solution' has not worked so a zero tolerance policy is a good way to get rid of flaming. If people want to be part of the forums, they'll stop. If they don't, they'll be gone.

Again... is that likely? Really?

In summation: if the mods can't control the flames now, what makes you think they'll be able to do it without a flame forum?

[Anarkistsdream]

First, no, I'm not a republican. Not a US citizen.

I'll assume that these are the questions you mentioned which appear to be a ploy to get someone to flame you.

How about we try this... Let's use FACTS to state our points as opposed to feelings or conjectures...

I'll start.

Flame Wars would be gone, so flaming would be gone? That's your ingenious peoples' opisions, right? No, but it'd certainly lower it and show that CC doesn't tolerate flaming at all. Currently it's OK to do as long as it's in Flame Wars. To many flamers this means it's ok to do it anywhere because the thread will get moved to flame wars or it's ok to flame until I'm told to stop.



PROVE THIS... PROVE IT, ED... YOU CAN'T, SO PISS OFF. YOU ARE ONE OF THE EXACT PROBLEM I AM TALKING ABOUT. YOU USE NO LOGIC OR REASON FOR YOUR CLAIMS, YET BOAST THEM BOLDLY.


Do the multi hunters stop there from being multis? No. This is not relevant at all. They certainly do lower the amount of multis though.

IT IS TOTALLY RELEVANT, ASSUMING YOU CARE FOR THE TRUTH. YOU SAY BECAUSE SOMETHING IS MODERATED, IT SUDDENLY CEASES TO BE. YOU ARE IGNORANT AND NEED TO STAY OUT OF THE FORUMS WHICH I SEE YOU SO SELDOM VISIT ANYWAY. SO, AGAIN I ASK, WHY DO YOU GIVE A SHIT?

Do the Suggestions/Bug Reports forum stop there from being problems? No. Again this isn't relevant. Do you want my answer? No, having a place to post about suggestions and bug reports does not, in fact, stop problems. It does solve problems and prevent future ones which is the point of the forum.

AND FLAME WARS PREVENTS FUTURE PROBLEMS TOO, BY GIVING PEOPLE THEIR OUTLET. JESUS, YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN NO MATTER WHAT YOU SAY. WHEN I ASKED, I DIDN'T SAY REGISTERED. YOU ARE A DEFINITE REPUBLICAN, AND YOUR IDIOCY DISGUSTS ME.

Does appointing admins to control the site stop there from being friction? No (Just look at the Twill/Wicked Debacle.). No but they have 'powers' to control the forum and make sure rules are being followed.

Why you people think that just because there is no symptom means the disease would go away is ridiculous? This doesn't make sense. People are saying it will lessen the flaming. Just because you can't get rid of something entirely doesn't mean lowering it is not a good solution. The 'problem' (notice the ' ' marks) is that flaming occurs outside of flame wars. Apparently having a place to do flaming is not good enough for many people. This 'solution' has not worked so a zero tolerance policy is a good way to get rid of flaming. If people want to be part of the forums, they'll stop. If they don't, they'll be gone.


AGAIN, YOUR IGNORANT UTOPIA...

Not to mention, most of you don't go in FW anyway, so why do you care? Honestly, what makes you give a shit about it? For the people that use it, it helps relieve stress that they WILL otherwise take out on the community at large. As I said, I don't really care but others do. And, as I said, flaming is not limited to flame wars. Threads are moved and posters are warned daily. It might be time to get rid of flaming all together. Like you said, people will flame and troll no matter what. It's part of the internet. But, the amount of it can be lessened by setting rules and giving punishment.


THEN LET THEM ARGUE, BECAUSE YOUR ARGUMENTS LACK ANY SORT OF VALIDITY.

And, if it doesn't have direct affect on your life, why post in this thread at all? Where is your own rage and indignation coming from? I don't have any. I'm just stating my opinion which is based on logic and reason. many other people's are not or are based on very poor logic

[pancakemix]

Keep it. There are enough thread about Twill and wicked in there already, imagine the outcry against the mods if you take it away...

[jbrettlip]

No reason to get mad at Republicans....can't we just hate the stupid people??? And no, they aren't one and the same.

[Anarkistsdream]

No reason to get mad at Republicans....can't we just hate the stupid people??? And no, they aren't one and the same.

Agreed, but you know where my point was derived...

[AndyDufresne]

I see a couple of colored-names lurking here. Any response Andy, etc. as to the reason why one of your moderators is attempting to float this idea?

Lurking? Being online doesn't classify as lurking. It looks like it is just a discussion topic, no worries, no big drastic changes are planned.

Anyways, back on topic, this post from the first page:

Sorry, but if you don't let it stay, it would never work. Almost EVERY forum has one (Please realize I said 'almost')

Many people here like to go there. If you don't want it, don't read it. No one forces you to Flame Wars.

I agree, that if there is a forum you don't want to read, you don't have to go there (look at how many people don't visit the Map Foundry?).

But what people tend to tire of...is when the Flamers bring their Flames to the rest of the forum where they want read.


--Andy

[hulmey]

I see a couple of colored-names lurking here. Any response Andy, etc. as to the reason why one of your moderators is attempting to float this idea?

Lurking? Being online doesn't classify as lurking. It looks like it is just a discussion topic, no worries, no big drastic changes are planned.

Anyways, back on topic, this post from the first page:

Sorry, but if you don't let it stay, it would never work. Almost EVERY forum has one (Please realize I said 'almost')

Many people here like to go there. If you don't want it, don't read it. No one forces you to Flame Wars.

I agree, that if there is a forum you don't want to read, you don't have to go there (look at how many people don't visit the Map Foundry?).

But what people tend to tire of...is when the Flamers bring their Flames to the rest of the forum where they want read.


--Andy

Hmmm...i saw yeti flaming t-o-m today! I very much doubt he was warned for that! Is he a flamer? FLames will still happen with or without the flame forums and even from people who dont usually flame.

[AndyDufresne]

I think you are misreading my post, Hulmey. I was not advocating the removal of the Forum to lessen Flaming, I was just stating that Flames, by anyone (I.E. a Flamer), outside of the Flame Wars detracts from everyone's experience.


--Andy

[hulmey]

I think you are misreading my post, Hulmey. I was not advocating the removal of the Forum to lessen Flaming, I was just stating that Flames, by anyone (I.E. a Flamer), outside of the Flame Wars detracts from everyone's experience.


--Andy

yes I agree with you. Im just saying that ive witnessed alot of none flamers, flaming!!!I rarley see flamers venturing into other forums. The worst offenders in the GD for example has to be the BpB Clan! But they troll with sublime flames just bordering on being acceptable!

[edbeard]

I'm not going to respond to everyone or everything because I don't feel like it and I'll probably leave this thread be after this. Like I've said two or three times, this doesn't really bother me. What does infuriate me is wanting to quote more than one post and having to ctrl-x everything instead of quote buttons for each post.

if flaming does occur outside of flame wars, more times than not, its from someone who doesn't use flame wars. it's ridiculous to talk of removing the forum for the infractions of the few, when those individuals aren't even members of that particular group. even if they were it'd be ludicrous to blame the actions of a few on the whole and to assign the qualities of those few to being those representative of the entire group is equally idiotic and insulting.

Anyone else find it really funny that a few of the flamers are giving the rest of them a bad name?

for a bunch of flamers and jokesters, you guys sure don't understand humour. Considering that what you guys do is flame people which is basically insulting each other, it's humourous that you're mad that a few 'bad apples' are ruining it for everyone else.



I wonder if you really are a journalist, Anarkistsdream, because in the post in response to my post, your reading comprehension was quite lacking. I think your anger, which became more obvious as the post progressed, clouded your mind quite a bit.


1. anyone who frequents the forum on a regular basis knows that flaming frequently occurs outside the flame wars. I don't need to prove that these people don't care about where they do their flaming. Their actions make their thoughts clear. That is quite obvious but you're ignoring it.

2. when you said, "IT IS TOTALLY RELEVANT, ASSUMING YOU CARE FOR THE TRUTH. YOU SAY BECAUSE SOMETHING IS MODERATED, IT SUDDENLY CEASES TO BE," you should've seen that I said, "People are saying it will lessen the flaming. Just because you can't get rid of something entirely doesn't mean lowering it is not a good solution." Nowhere did I say it would totally 'cease to be.' As I said in a previous post, flaming and trolling is part of the internet. But, it doesn't mean we have to let it roam free.

3. "WHY DO YOU GIVE A SHIT?" I've said it quite a few times, but I guess you missed it each time. I don't really care that much. Just because someone argues a viewpoint doesn't mean it's a big deal to them.

4. "FLAME WARS PREVENTS FUTURE PROBLEMS TOO, BY GIVING PEOPLE THEIR OUTLET". It's too bad they can't 'vent' and 'outlet' elsewhere and/or by other means.


my favourite part of your post, "IT IS TOTALLY RELEVANT, ASSUMING YOU CARE FOR THE TRUTH". that was funny. The bolded 'yelling' text (which I think you only used to make reading the post easier) added to the humour.

[AAFitz]

I think the flame war forum itself is fine for the many that frequent it to have their fun. Personally, i think it would be a shame to have to delete it. However, keeping the rest of the forum clean should indeed be a high priority, because many do not want to be bombarded with flame war type posts in general.

Eliminating flame wars wouldnt necessarily stop flaming, but it probably would mean the players more interested in just flaming with what they consider creative descriptions of genitalia, and sexual prefference jokes, might just leave altogether.

It would probably be better to focus on more clear rules, and moderation in the regular forum, and leave the flame wars thread for arguments, which in a game like this are bound to occur. However, I think its fairly obvious that the future of CC probably doesnt depend upon whether there is a place where players can call each other ***** ****** ********** ******* ******. If it does, then its probably not going to make it in the long run anyways.

[hulmey]

I think the flame war forum itself is fine for the many that frequent it to have their fun. Personally, i think it would be a shame to have to delete it. However, keeping the rest of the forum clean should indeed be a high priority, because many do not want to be bombarded with flame war type posts in general.

Eliminating flame wars wouldnt necessarily stop flaming, but it probably would mean the players more interested in just flaming with what they consider creative descriptions of genitalia, and sexual prefference jokes, might just leave altogether.

It would probably be better to focus on more clear rules, and moderation in the regular forum, and leave the flame wars thread for arguments, which in a game like this are bound to occur. However, I think its fairly obvious that the future of CC probably doesnt depend upon whether there is a place where players can call each other ***** ****** ********** ******* ******. If it does, then its probably not going to make it in the long run anyways.

damn it...stop posting like a mod already
nice and balanced post as always

[flabio]

I have noticed that somebody on the first page metioned FW only fuels anger and hatred. This is a mis-conception on the most part. Sure, there is a lot of "gay" and "retarded" statements made quite frequently. But as far as true anger or hatred, it is next to non-exsistent. I compare it to that old run down bar, or pub you can find in every community. It may be an eyesore sometimes, and most of the prim and proper folks may wish it was shut down. But it serves a purpose that is hard to understand. The same old drunks file in, order a drink and hurl insults at each other until they have had enough libations, then go home. Sure, sometimes it may get a little out of hand, but usually there is no harm, and no foul, and the very next day they are doing it all over again.
You can go to any computer and google "flame wars". Conquer Club will always show up on the second or third page. It is always the first actual flame forum that is not exclusivly a flame site. Therefore making it quite possibly the best flame forum on the entire internet. Many CC'ers may not post, but enjoy reading flame wars on a regular occasion. This is something that Lack may wish to consider before he makes any knee jerk desisions, on the advice of some lame ass mod who wouldn't survive in FW for a day. I think flame wars is awsome, and it would totally suck to see it go.

[timmytuttut88]

I think you are misreading my post, Hulmey. I was not advocating the removal of the Forum to lessen Flaming, I was just stating that Flames, by anyone (I.E. a Flamer), outside of the Flame Wars detracts from everyone's experience.


--Andy

Thats why you get a warning for flaming out of FW isn't it? Their is going to be flaming outside of FW no matter what you guys do.

[jiminski]

NO NO NO NO NO!
(5 UPPERCASE .. perfect..)

Sure enough there are the obviously 'bad-eggs' who we can all look down upon with easy moral superiority.. and they often make a home of Flamewars. Cut em out and CC is all around a nicer place!

The problem is you get people like me, who don't much post there or get into the hustle-bustle of the Flame forum, coming out on principle.
The animal which is the whole site, needs a place to look down upon in order to justify and measure its own 'spotless' behaviour.
it also needs a dark side or it would become less human. Every family needs a black sheep or it would not be able to revel in the possibility of devil-may-care rebellion by association.

the site also needs a place to take nonsense.. without it, all that happens is the mods shut everything, slightly out of the ordinary, down... this invites the focus of rightful frustration towards the site, as opposed to another petty individual. (You need to divide to Rule CC)

So what happens? the site cracks-down on evil, in a draconian quest for bliss! "They don't know what is good for them.. they'll see, we are right.. always right...My Preciooooous...!"
But then even people like me get banned for not toeing the line. (Heh I incidentally behave for the good of the community... in the main.. but I do not feel sterility is for the common good!)

So in CC-heaven, all intrinsic trouble-makers are gone, (and some created in the fires of due-process) you end up with a less vibrant, polite, restrained place, with no edgy-characters at all... Other than those who can be cheeky within the sanctioned patterns of behavioural parameters, dictated by committee, born in the all powerful inner-sanctum! ... *dandundaaaaaaairn* The Mod-Forum, alias the CC Lubeywanka!! (it's a pun on Lubyanka .. but even i did not get it... and i thought of it)

And so the CC character is that of another faceless leviathan in the waiting!... "you 2 are arguing.. and Juggs! You used the word 'bottom' within an unsanctioned context!.. Stop this discourse immediately or the thread will be moved to.. Moved to.... err right.. ummm! ... code: 'Lightest shade of Lilac' ... lockdown in process.. you are both banned until Citizen Re-Education is completed!"

Under the new regime the world possibly ends too but i am not sure of my data on that one.... Chaos theory is an exact science but only if you know everything first *Mail to CC Lubyanka asking for data on unknown variable, codename: 'Everything'*

[The1exile]

If mods (and by admittedly tenuous extension these days, the community) do their job properly, then there is no need to get rid of FW, as the offenders outside the forum will be dealt with soon enough.

If they're not, then any effective removal of FW will be far more demanding on their workload and not worth bothering with - and only practically able to justify blanket bans and draconian crackdowns.

As has been said, it's the fora which give this place character - otherwise it's barely above a roguelike-esque game with colour backgrounds. And if there's no FW, what next? Will mafia games be banned because poeple consider other peoples play idiotic (hmm... ga7 comes to mind immediately )? Or maybe the chatter box forum will bit the dust first because after all, it's there that the political/religion debates get heated? So what will we be left with? 2 forums to report problems in, 2 for the 2d game the site is built on, one to boast and/or whine inanely about medals, rank, score and scripts, and maybe forum games to kill brain cells playing pointless trivia games?

It would be boring. The best advice is "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[trapyoung]

if flaming does occur outside of flame wars, more times than not, its from someone who doesn't use flame wars. it's ridiculous to talk of removing the forum for the infractions of the few, when those individuals aren't even members of that particular group. even if they were it'd be ludicrous to blame the actions of a few on the whole and to assign the qualities of those few to being those representative of the entire group is equally idiotic and insulting.

Anyone else find it really funny that a few of the flamers are giving the rest of them a bad name?

for a bunch of flamers and jokesters, you guys sure don't understand humour. Considering that what you guys do is flame people which is basically insulting each other, it's humourous that you're mad that a few 'bad apples' are ruining it for everyone else.

What was humorous about this? I brought up analogous situations would which be on par with the type of inane reasoning which would justify the removal of flame wars. And I never claimed it was a few bad eggs, as I said above I said a majority of the time it was by people who are rarely use flame wars, if ever. How many posts are moved to flame wars and they never actually intentionally post in flame wars? Numerous, I've seen many threads moved there by individuals who chose not to frequent that part of the site but I've never seen a flame wars thread moved to GD. Much of the garbage you assume leaks into the site is ill-reasoned. The flaming outside of flame wars is perpetuated by other members of the site 99% of the time and you have yet to show examples of main participants of flame wars committing this atrocious error of flaming outside of flame wars. I'm not mad at the few 'bad apples', I'm mad at certain individuals who keep making contentions completely contrary to fact and refuse to provide an evidence or proof of their statements.

[jonesthecurl]

And, if it doesn't have direct affect on your life, why post in this thread at all? Where is your own rage and indignation coming from?

I get mine by mail order from Harrod's.

[oaktown]

As a paying user of this site, I personally think that Flame Wars is a waste of time. However, I am fine with its existence as long as it remains somebody else's waste of time. The Flame Wars thread doesn't bother me, it doesn't add to my work load, and I don't have to ever go there if it is my choice not to - which it is. So while my opinion may be that the place is a waste of time, it never offends me in any way.

As a user who has a colored name, my opinion is somewhat different. I don't do a whole lot of forum moderation; in part this is because it's not what I'm good at, but mostly this is because my 'powers' are limited to the Foundry, which is usually pretty tame. When there is a problem, it is nice to be able to say "take it to flame wars" rather than getting on my high horse and warning a user that this word or that word isn't tolerated here. So if anything, the existence of FW seems to make my life a bit easier around here.

If we did scrap Flame Wars it probably wouldn't have any long-term negative impact on the state of the forums. Users would be upset at first, and there would be a ton of trolling, warnings and bans issued, and banned users trying to sneak in under new multi accounts. Probably three months of serious headache for the mod team and a lot of nasty exchanges in GD, but it would pass.

What would happen though is that the site would lose a few hundred regular users who stick around because of Flame Wars, and since ultimately this is a private business - not a free community as some like to think - such a move wouldn't make financial sense. As long as it brings in paying customers I think Lack has to keep it.

[jonesthecurl]

What, there are people who find FW more interesting than playing the games?
I don't care, like you say I don't go there but am fine with it existing - but I'd be surprised if it's the main reason people pay a premium. I mean you can swear at people for free, surely.

[bedub1]

If you take away all the dedicated smoking rooms that include super high air filtration systems, glass walls, and signs posted everywhere letting people know it's a smoking room and don't go in there if you don't want to smoke, then the smokers (who still need someplace to smoke) will just have to smoke amoung the public, and now they can't find ashtrays so they just throw their butts on the ground as litter.

Think your idea all the way through before you enact it. Most people are very short sighted. Did you know it takes 1.5 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of bio-fuel?

[Pedronicus]

leave the flame wars totally unmoderated and state so - then forget about it. anyone who enters take their own life in their hands

It's been the dumping ground of CC for years. this site needs a dustbin.