Not Extending Premium

[happy2seeyou]

What if this site isn't around for 5 years? Then you just fucked yourself. In the ass. Hard.

$125 bucks ? I guess some call that fucked hard

in the right city, $125 is indeed a hard f*ck.

But I agree, I was spending that almost every year here on other peoples premiums anyways.

I think all the super-frequent players should be paying more anyways...

Goodness I have missed reading funny tidbits like this

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I think you two may have some sort of fucking problem.

LOL KH, how's my fav disease?

To answer prime from a few responds ago,
1) I'm not a man.
2) Ask Twill, Hyrasri, James Vazquez, or a couple other mods that I femmed up and explained my concerns to for months before I got so fed up that I gave up.
3) If the site really doesn't care who pays and who rides for free, well, goodie for you. (I bet that uncaring would change if everyone DID boycott paying, though!)

That of course is true. But everyone is not going to boycott. Further, there is nothing the site could do to possibly keep some from not boycotting. You simply cannot keep all the people happy all the time.

Further, since your concern was mostly about flame wars, and how you felt it was unfair, and clearly the main draw of the site, beyond the unlimited games, and multiple other forums with lots of great people:

Isnt it just possible, that the site owners, just didnt want to be associated with a site that had the kinds of things that flame wars has on it? Did you ever think that as individuals, they simply said, " I dont care if this costs me a bit of money. I simply dont want to have that forum on my game anymore."

"Do you realize that it probably was not a financial decision, but a personal one, and one that was made knowing full well, that It may or may not have been the best financial one?"

This is a site without one advertisement on it. It has tens of thousands of users, and it doesnt have one advertisement on it. Not one pop up by anyone. Do you think this was a financial decision? Or does it suggest the kind of person the owner of the site is, and why he makes the decisions he makes?

My point is, this site is being run by a guy, who has the talent and intellect to program this game. Do you really think a few people leaving was unexpected?

Further, do you not realize how many people are so much happier without flame wars, and without the constant flaming all over the site. Do you not realize how many parents are thankful, and more willing to let their kids play in here, on what is an incredibly intense game, filled with options of speed, strategy, and pure psychological warfare?

Do you not realize how many people out there are buying other people premiums, because they enjoy this site so much? How many people would gladly kick in a little more if asked? Or how much more lack could actually charge, especially compared to what he offers above other sites....forum included?

I hardly frequent a lot of games, but Ive seen enough though. This is still one of the most open forums around in a game like this. Certainly, it is the most comprehensive and best global strategy game around. So, really, do you think that everyone is going to just boycott this place? Or that youre $255 impact will ever have any impact? Or more importantly, that the things you dont like, are the exact things that others like, and inspire them to spend even more?

Just some examples for the flip side of your suggested boycott, and perhaps, just a bit of insight as to the possible motivations that an owner of a game like this, might have for making decisions, that his name and reputation are at stake on.

Its easy for all of us to suggest what should be, and what should be allowed, but there is no cost for us to make these suggestions. However, for the owner, he puts his life and entire reputation on the line. If you think $225 is going to get him to get him to sell out what he feels is morally correct, I think you are mistaken. I dont think $2250; $22,500; $225,000 would...
Maybe at $2,250,000 morals might be compromised, but thats not my place to say. If you have that cash, you may very well be able to get him to reinstate flame wars, and get some perma bannned players back. Myself, ill lobby for it, for say the $225,000 number.

What...flame wars? Where did it go ? I dint even take notice Who pays 25 bucks to post on a flame forum ?

[niMic]

I'll definitely be extending my Premium. Though maybe you only wanted to hear from the people who won't be extending, so that your point seems more forceful?

[xelabale]

I'm not decided. Can you sway me one way or the other?

[jpcloet]

I'm not decided. Can you sway me one way or the other?

Once your clan goes into the clan league and some of the more fun clan stuff on the site, you will definitely want to have more than 4 game slots. You'll have to trust me I guess. Or go freemium and see how it goes. You can always buy premium once you realize its true value.

[Mr Changsha]

I think you two may have some sort of fucking problem.

LOL KH, how's my fav disease?

To answer prime from a few responds ago,
1) I'm not a man.
2) Ask Twill, Hyrasri, James Vazquez, or a couple other mods that I femmed up and explained my concerns to for months before I got so fed up that I gave up.
3) If the site really doesn't care who pays and who rides for free, well, goodie for you. (I bet that uncaring would change if everyone DID boycott paying, though!)

That of course is true. But everyone is not going to boycott. Further, there is nothing the site could do to possibly keep some from not boycotting. You simply cannot keep all the people happy all the time.

Further, since your concern was mostly about flame wars, and how you felt it was unfair, and clearly the main draw of the site, beyond the unlimited games, and multiple other forums with lots of great people:

Isnt it just possible, that the site owners, just didnt want to be associated with a site that had the kinds of things that flame wars has on it? Did you ever think that as individuals, they simply said, " I dont care if this costs me a bit of money. I simply dont want to have that forum on my game anymore."

"Do you realize that it probably was not a financial decision, but a personal one, and one that was made knowing full well, that It may or may not have been the best financial one?"

This is a site without one advertisement on it. It has tens of thousands of users, and it doesnt have one advertisement on it. Not one pop up by anyone. Do you think this was a financial decision? Or does it suggest the kind of person the owner of the site is, and why he makes the decisions he makes?

My point is, this site is being run by a guy, who has the talent and intellect to program this game. Do you really think a few people leaving was unexpected?

Further, do you not realize how many people are so much happier without flame wars, and without the constant flaming all over the site. Do you not realize how many parents are thankful, and more willing to let their kids play in here, on what is an incredibly intense game, filled with options of speed, strategy, and pure psychological warfare?

Do you not realize how many people out there are buying other people premiums, because they enjoy this site so much? How many people would gladly kick in a little more if asked? Or how much more lack could actually charge, especially compared to what he offers above other sites....forum included?

I hardly frequent a lot of games, but Ive seen enough though. This is still one of the most open forums around in a game like this. Certainly, it is the most comprehensive and best global strategy game around. So, really, do you think that everyone is going to just boycott this place? Or that youre $255 impact will ever have any impact? Or more importantly, that the things you dont like, are the exact things that others like, and inspire them to spend even more?

Just some examples for the flip side of your suggested boycott, and perhaps, just a bit of insight as to the possible motivations that an owner of a game like this, might have for making decisions, that his name and reputation are at stake on.

Its easy for all of us to suggest what should be, and what should be allowed, but there is no cost for us to make these suggestions. However, for the owner, he puts his life and entire reputation on the line. If you think $225 is going to get him to get him to sell out what he feels is morally correct, I think you are mistaken. I dont think $2250; $22,500; $225,000 would...
Maybe at $2,250,000 morals might be compromised, but thats not my place to say. If you have that cash, you may very well be able to get him to reinstate flame wars, and get some perma bannned players back. Myself, ill lobby for it, for say the $225,000 number.

I think this is actually a very good post in which Fitz quite elegantly puts a point that some others have put more boorishly: that we should suck it up, no, that we will suck it up, if we consider the gaming side here to be important enough that we just can't stop playing.

I would admit that I am in that position.

But Fitz, how would you evaluate your quite fair comment against this one of mine...

Finally, it is WE the forum regulars who in general drive this site forward. It is we who make the maps, we who make the suggestions, we who create the clans, we who find the multis, we who create the lore and we (I think most importantly) who give this site a sense of community. CC has become more than a site to play Risk, it has become a site to live Risk, think Risk and breathe Risk. Yet the administration tell us that if WE don't like the site we can just LEAVE? Just recently I wrote a thread explaining to new players how to attack in Risk. I pm'd comic boy to have him contribute as well. I did this to improve the site as did he. Yet maybe in six months I'll have given this forum up for dead and I won't try and improve the site in my own small (and I would admit fairly insignificant) way. Yet multiply what I contribute to include all of us forum regulars who try and find ways to help this site. Imagine if a sizeable proportion of us say "I can't be bothered anymore". No more suggestions, no more multi hunting, no more great threads, no more good maps, no new clans...The forum regulars make this site what it is.

So I think there are two quite fair postitions here and they must be balanced. Yes, the majority of players do have little actively to do with the forums (though I am sure a much greater number than 2% visit the forums on a reasonable basis), and they only care about the games and the games features.

But who creates all those game features? The forum regulars or the proactive/emotionally involved members. Now these people do care about the forum and do want to be treated with a little more respect. The forum regulars drive this site and if large numbers of us become less interested it does drive the quality of this product down long-term over its competitors. What if all the creative imput of this site went over to landgrab? Or a completely new site? The proactive members do care about the running of this forum and it is important to them. Therefore, the administation of this site should be bending over to make us happy.

Therefore the final piece of the puzzle is whether the majority of the proactive members are happy with how this place is being run overall? I think the majority, a clear majority, are not. Looking at the length of the negative threads in GD by the sheer diversity of forum goers criticising recent policy changes and decisions, by the obvious lack of senior members standing up for the administration (OP gave this away a bit in his interview "Where is my fan club?") in the last month and by OP's refusal to take part in these debates from very early on.

It is rather like when the middle classes began to demand representation in 17th century Britain up to the universal suffrage of the 20th century. We are part of this company's success and we are demanding a little representation.

[Johnny Rockets]

Has there been any movement in the ombudsman suggestion? That seemed like a solid idea. Some sort of consumer advocate. He/She might only end up as a figurehead, but it would be a step forward none the less.

Johnny Rockets

[AAFitz]

Ok, well let me just say, that I think its a bad Idea for us to discuss things....we use way too many words...

that being said, and I really will try to answer each point.

For one, people are going to leave and stay, regardless of what the site does. Further, there is an ebb and rip tide for most members in here. In other words, you may think its the forum that is making you want to leave, but it really could actually just be that youre bored with it. Certainly, the two will always be connected, and its very common, for someone leaving to choose to blame something specific when they leave, but that does not necessarily mean that that reason they named is the real reason, or even a reason, so you mentioning that you wont contribute might not really have anything to do with the sites practices anyways. To some degree we all know this, so when someone says they are leaving because of the forum regulation, it is always taken with a grain of salt. We all know there are many reasons to stay, and many reasons to go...and going out with a bang and a feeling of purpose is usually more fun.

Now, obviously at the same time, the admin certainly doesnt want to annoy everyone, and I without a doubt do not believe they do. I believe the core of their membership is actually the non posting community that plays some games and isnt on the forum. And if you go back to the deletion of the flame wars thread, you will see that quite a bit supported it being deleted, even some that had fun in it like myself. And, as I said before, that may all be irrelevant, if lack simply didnt want that on his site or want to be associated with it. Its then moot how many liked it. Im sure many would like porn, but that obviously doesnt mean he should allow that, no matter how many post that he should.

Now, as far as pro active positive players coming out to support the site, well, all I can say is what all in marketing know. For every 3 compliments that a company gets, it will get 27 negative ones. That doesnt mean that its a bad product, its just a simple, and unfortunate attribute of the human psychology. We are more inspired to speak up by something we dont like, than something we do. I would guess that all those players that arent saying anything, for the most part, just dont care what the mods are doing, and who they are banning. Ive been here for 2.5 years, played and posted as much as anyone, and still have no idea what dancing mustard for example ever posted. I certainly have nothing vested in his being banned or not banned, so the vast majority that arent as active as me, are probably in that same boat. In any case, their silence is not some symptom of supposed wrong-doing, but more likely acceptance.

Again, most of this is all moot for the most part, because we arent necessarily talking about what is the most profitable, or will attract the most customers, or anything like that. We are talking about the policies that the management has decided it wants to follow, and its fairly easy to see, it isnt necessarily a monetary motivation for them. I believe the main problem, and the main source of all the complaints, is that CC was so ridculously open for such a long time. You could say anything, to anyone, about anything whatsoever. Now this is obviously not necessarily what the owners wanted, but it does show the open kind of atmosphere they were willing to accept...to a point. However, its obvious that the spiraling of this open forum, got out of hand, and its fairly obvious, that they are just trying to keep it from happening again.

As far as comparing this to the french revolution....the french were starving, and were unfairly treated, and couldnt go somewhere else to live. Further, it was the majority of the french people that felt this way, not just a vocal minority. If you truly think that if you asked every player on here the state of affairs, that they would say a revolution was necessary, and that they cant believe the way the forums are being moderated....like other forums on the internet...but more open still....with a suggestion box....mods that interact with the community on a daily basis, ad hoc groups for different subjects, and the willingness of the owner to code in a whole bunch of features primarily asked for by the community....well, Id say you are in for a surprise. I actually would predict the complete opposite of your negative french revolution, and would predict to see a player revolution that would come out to crush the negative, complaining players in their tracks. I have simply met too many great people on CC to think that they are all disgruntled people, who want to join on the bandwagon of protecting the essential rights of other players, to essentially flame, spam, and break the rules at will. Its a guess of course, but its a semi-educated one.

People in here, will always want to push the envelope, they will always want to be able to say whatever they want, call each other what they want, when they want, but it does not mean its right, that its best for the site, or that the majority want these things too.

Further, to use the negative postings as some kind of evidence, and the lack of people arguing against it, is easy, but you have to realize not real evidence. The fact that dancing mustard had tons of support doesnt mean it was the wrong decision. All have had support when banned. Xtra had support, many cheaters have had support, If I got banned, I would get support, but it wouldnt necessarily mean it was the wrong decision. Only, that in a massive group, some disagreed.

The main point however, that I was making, was that everyone is not leaving, everyone is not unhappy, and there is no revolution. The site has changed, it allows for less open speech about many things, like flaming, racism, excessive spamming...but most of this does not affect the great majority of players or posters. Its still an open forum, we can still discuss a great number of things, and two people like us can write a few short novels back and forth...but we have to follow some simple rules. If we dont, or if we dont like those rules, we leave or get asked to leave.

I no doubt expect there to be a breaking point here. I expect a little statement from management saying....look...we just want to clean up the forums a bit. Weve been trying to for a while. We know some of you dont like it, but its my site, and some of the stuff is just not what I want on here. We are trying to give you a great game, and evolve as the community evolves, but there are some basic rules to follow. We know most of you know this to be self evident, and thank you for your support, and look forward to many great years of fun together on CC. For those of you who no longer feel its worth $25, you can still stick around and play some games for free....and even post on the forums....but we have a few simple rules for you to follow.

Its that basic. Its not a revolution...the masses arent being herded or controlled... you have a few vocal people, who will find something to complain about somewhere anyways, complaining here.... its just basic and obvious human nature, and stepping back from the situation, and not giving into the supposed hype makes this obvious to any who want to see it.

[AAFitz]

Has there been any movement in the ombudsman suggestion? That seemed like a solid idea. Some sort of consumer advocate. He/She might only end up as a figurehead, but it would be a step forward none the less.

Johnny Rockets

we are all ombudsman. we all make our suggestions, and many of us make them all the time. It is wildly unrealistic, to think that one person could possibly speak for all the players of CC. It is a wildly fragmented populous, and the ombudsman, as cool as the term is, would just be a waste of time. No one person, could possibly represent those that want flame wars back, and those that thank the day it was deleted. And that is just one example. Those who bring forth good ideas, and present it logically will naturally be listened to. Further, they will individually be able to be more honest, whereas the ombudsman, would be forced to essentially not even speak his mind, but try to speak for an group that simply cannot be represented by one person. To think the silent players that just enjoy the game every day, would want some person fighting for the right of a flame wars to be reinstated is just a little dramatic.

[Mr Changsha]

Great post again Fitz (and I also agree with avoiding quoting all this), but one of your central points gets blown out of the water: I wrote of British history not French. I wrote of the slow, steady crawl to democratic representation, not the 'chop their heads off, drink some red wine and adjust your beret' French method.

I have little sympathy with those that purposefully go out with a bang. Or those who then create multis to get their revenge. I think very little of those at all. Or those who even want to bring down the site, sod them I like playing here.

No, I was alluding to the fact that as the merchant classes grew in influence they began to demand a stake, a share if you will, of the decision making process. We proactive members contribute what, 99% of the maps, 99% of the clans and a very large percentage of the multi busts and suggestions. This is not a traditional business whereby a product is created independently of the customer base. The customer base creates the product and therefore, in my view, should have a share of the decision making process.

[stahrgazer]

Further, since your concern was mostly about flame wars, and how you felt it was unfair, and clearly the main draw of the site, beyond the unlimited games, and multiple other forums with lots of great people:

You mis-quoted the wrong person if you believe my concern was about flame wars, OTHER than to say, eliminating flame wars didn't eliminate the flaming problem on CC.

[mibi]

25 buckaroos is a good price for this service.

though you are more than welcome to pay 10 bucks a month for a much worse experience.

Tho I must say I have never had the opportunity to extend my premium due to all the maps I've made. And even though I never play more than 4 games, and never play speed games, I would likely extend my membership because it is pittance to pay to support the entertainment value I get out of this place.

[mgconstruction]

Just renewed mine and unless the game play goes south I will continue to do so.
I think these bans on some people are great for the sight. Gives some of us non attention whores something funny to read lmao

Peace

[AAFitz]

Further, since your concern was mostly about flame wars, and how you felt it was unfair, and clearly the main draw of the site, beyond the unlimited games, and multiple other forums with lots of great people:

You mis-quoted the wrong person if you believe my concern was about flame wars, OTHER than to say, eliminating flame wars didn't eliminate the flaming problem on CC.

actually, Im pretty sure I wrote that, and you are misquoting the wrong person. I did think you were saying that the deletion of flame wars was your concern, and possibly what you considered unfair mod treatment of people. So, I may have misquoted someone, but youre misquoting JR for misquoting someone....

[owenshooter]

i have not renewed mine, for obvious reasons... i spend a fair amount of time within the forums, and i don't like the direction the forums have taken. kind of waiting to see what andy does about the current situation/air about the forums, and the final decision in this thread, Subject: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma... anyway, i truly love CC, i just hope a bit of respect can be achieved for those of us that help to make this place unique... i've been on other sites with other forums, and they are nothing near the caliber of this forum... well, we are slowly regressing towards those other sites, but hopefully it can turn around... so for now, i am silver, and proud of it.-0

[whitestazn88]

Just renewed mine and unless the game play goes south I will continue to do so.
I think these bans on some people are great for the sight. Gives some of us non attention whores something funny to read lmao

Peace

i don't get it... banning people is good for your sight? did you one day take off your glasses and find that you could read the forum? and what do you mean that you now have something funny to read... you don't think the reason that people have been in an uproar is because teamCC has banned some of our most thought provoking and funny members?

[Woodruff]

You mis-quoted the wrong person if you believe my concern was about flame wars, OTHER than to say, eliminating flame wars didn't eliminate the flaming problem on CC.

Quite honestly, nothing is going to eliminate flaming here...it seems to be human nature when in an anonymous medium like this. It can really only be controlled (to whatever degree, light or heavy, the site deems appropriate).

[fwblb]

i have not renewed mine, for obvious reasons... i spend a fair amount of time within the forums, and i don't like the direction the forums have taken. kind of waiting to see what andy does about the current situation/air about the forums, and the final decision in this thread, Subject: For Minor Infractions, 6 Months Max Vacation instead Perma... anyway, i truly love CC, i just hope a bit of respect can be achieved for those of us that help to make this place unique... i've been on other sites with other forums, and they are nothing near the caliber of this forum... well, we are slowly regressing towards those other sites, but hopefully it can turn around... so for now, i am silver, and proud of it.-0

i gifted you your first premium after we met in a game and you were cool. soon we all started taking turns on skype together and we were all like fast and old friends. even our kids know each other. we all even started up a clan after getting beat up in the old forums when it was like the wild wild west. i know you will still be around, but this really says a lot to me. i don't post much, but i do browse the forums at work and late at night taking turns. you must have been pushed really far to not purchase premium again. hopefully this doesn't mean less of you on cc, i would miss one of my best cc friends!

[jbrettlip]

Katy....Owen said he didn't have the money to buy me a lap dance in Austin, due to him "not liking the direction the strip club was going.In other words, I think it is a ruse...

[whitestazn88]

Katy....Owen said he didn't have the money to buy me a lap dance in Austin, due to him "not liking the direction the strip club was going.In other words, I think it is a ruse...

lol

[owenshooter]

Katy....Owen said he didn't have the money to buy me a lap dance in Austin, due to him "not liking the direction the strip club was going.In other words, I think it is a ruse...

brett, i paid for the last 4 you got while you were comatose in the corner, and i had no idea where you had gone off too. next thing i knew at closing time, some old lady in a thong was telling me i owed her for four dances for "my friend". i said, "who?" she said, "the guy in the corner that is passed out! i can't even understand what he is saying!" and i said, "he is saying, PLEASE STOP DANCING FOR ME, YOU OLD ASS ****!!!!" just because you don't recall anything after your 2nd shirley temple, doesn't mean i didn't pony up for dances for you!!-0

p.s.-i am still on the fence about getting premium again.

[whitestazn88]

Katy....Owen said he didn't have the money to buy me a lap dance in Austin, due to him "not liking the direction the strip club was going.In other words, I think it is a ruse...

brett, i paid for the last 4 you got while you were comatose in the corner, and i had no idea where you had gone off too. next thing i knew at closing time, some old lady in a thong was telling me i owed her for four dances for "my friend". i said, "who?" she said, "the guy in the corner that is passed out! i can't even understand what he is saying!" and i said, "he is saying, PLEASE STOP DANCING FOR ME, YOU OLD ASS ****!!!!" just because you don't recall anything after your 2nd shirley temple, doesn't mean i didn't pony up for dances for you!!-0

p.s.-i am still on the fence about getting premium again.

Click image to enlarge.

i suppose it looks like an alcoholic beverage...

[owenshooter]

we are all ombudsman. we all make our suggestions, and many of us make them all the time. It is wildly unrealistic, to think that one person could possibly speak for all the players of CC. It is a wildly fragmented populous, and the ombudsman, as cool as the term is, would just be a waste of time. No one person, could possibly represent those that want flame wars back, and those that thank the day it was deleted. And that is just one example.

AAFitz, i don't think you understand what an ombudsman does. it would be someone affiliated with CC, but who could sort through internal and external complaints without an agenda, and criticize conquer club when it needs to be criticized and back up CC on decisions when correct. i would love to see conquer club hire/have someone to do the same thing. this wouldn't be a person that tried to get things "done" or "passed" for the community. it would be a CC appointed person who investigated complaints by members against conquer club and gave his/her opinion on the matter in a transparent way to help move the community/cc forward... just tossing that out there...-0

[pimphawks70]

we are all ombudsman. we all make our suggestions, and many of us make them all the time. It is wildly unrealistic, to think that one person could possibly speak for all the players of CC. It is a wildly fragmented populous, and the ombudsman, as cool as the term is, would just be a waste of time. No one person, could possibly represent those that want flame wars back, and those that thank the day it was deleted. And that is just one example.

AAFitz, i don't think you understand what an ombudsman does. it would be someone affiliated with CC, but who could sort through internal and external complaints without an agenda, and criticize conquer club when it needs to be criticized and back up CC on decisions when correct. i would love to see conquer club hire/have someone to do the same thing. this wouldn't be a person that tried to get things "done" or "passed" for the community. it would be a CC appointed person who investigated complaints by members against conquer club and gave his/her opinion on the matter in a transparent way to help move the community/cc forward... just tossing that out there...-0

Hey just like Hysari right?

Oh wait. Does the ombudsman have to be real or can CC just create another fake user to do serve their purpose?

[Gypsys Kiss]

we are all ombudsman. we all make our suggestions, and many of us make them all the time. It is wildly unrealistic, to think that one person could possibly speak for all the players of CC. It is a wildly fragmented populous, and the ombudsman, as cool as the term is, would just be a waste of time. No one person, could possibly represent those that want flame wars back, and those that thank the day it was deleted. And that is just one example.

AAFitz, i don't think you understand what an ombudsman does. it would be someone affiliated with CC, but who could sort through internal and external complaints without an agenda, and criticize conquer club when it needs to be criticized and back up CC on decisions when correct. i would love to see conquer club hire/have someone to do the same thing. this wouldn't be a person that tried to get things "done" or "passed" for the community. it would be a CC appointed person who investigated complaints by members against conquer club and gave his/her opinion on the matter in a transparent way to help move the community/cc forward... just tossing that out there...-0

And what happens if said ombudsman comes down on the side of CC. Will he/she have to suffer the almost continuous abuse the mods suffer now?