Does this behaviour constitute farming?

[e_i_pi]

I've stumbled upon a user I believe is farming. Now, I don't want to tar and feather them in public, I don't believe that's fair. Since "farming" is such a grey area, I'd like some community perspective on whether or not this behaviour I'm about to describe constitutes farming.

Now farming, according to the site, is the systematic targetting of New Recruits. But what of the other forms of systematic targetting? What about systematic targetting of Cooks and Cadets, who are arguably as easy game as New Recruits? Obviously it is hard to prove in a lot of instances, but let's consider this one as a case study:

The player in question has played almost 600 games
77% of these games have been 1v1 games not started by the player in question (ie - he joins the games)
Only 1 of the 1v1 games he has played has he started - it was his first 1v1 game ever played
75% of these 1v1 games are against freemium players
The median number of games played by the opponent is 133

The rank of the opponents is given in the chart below, with the following format:
(Rank) - (Percentage of this rank on scoreboard) - (Percentage of this rank targetted by the player in question)

Code: Select all

Cook    -  8% - 25%
Cadet   -  9% - 17%
Private - 22% - 13%
PFC     - 12% - 12%
Corp    -  9% -  9%
CFC     -  8% -  7%
Sgt     -  7% -  6%
SFC     - 10% -  5%
Lieut   -  6% -  3%
Captain -  4% -  1%
Major   -  4% -  1%
Colonel -  1% -  0%
Brig+   - <1% -  0%

Now, it seems pretty obvious to me that this player is targetting Cooks and Cadets, while generally avoiding Sergeant 1st Class and above. Cooks and Cadets make up 17% of the scoreboard, yet they make up 42% of this players opponents.

During this players time here, they've played 12 players that are still listed as new recruits - 3 of those games were after the rules came in about systematically farming new recruits. I haven't calculated how many of these players were new recruits at the time of the games, but as you can see from the number of Cooks and Cadets played, it's probably substantially higher than 12.

Would you consider this form of targetting to be systematic? Would you consider it to be a form of farming?

[TheBro]

It is systematic farming. But not 'CC farming.'

[AAFitz]

Well, Im not sure the ranks offer significant info to be honest. I believe the farming rules are implemented to save new players, not well...low ranked ones.

Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

So, a player joining only new players does seem to break the idea behind the farming rules...however, at this point, only list new recruits specifically.

If a player joins a player with say 100 games, I dont think its farming in any way. If they join a player with 5, 10, 20 or 30 depending upon the type, then it is obviously farming a new player. If they only join those types, or join many of those, then it seem systematic, and obviously what the rule was meant to stop.

The subjective part of this, is what constitutes a new player...4 games, 5 games...10, 20...100? Further, those people need to be able to play games too, so they cant be completely off limits...but protecting them from hunters will improve the site in my opinion.

If they choose to join a game against a highly ranked player, they probably do, or should know what they are getting into, so you cant blame the person who created the game. However, if a guy with 5 games sets up a freestyle game on a tough board, it might be nice if they had a reasonable expectation of not being pecked off by the best on the site repeatedly.

[Bruceswar]

Personally I think it is farming when you play that many % wise of your games. I know who the person is, and lets just say this person is high ranked. With that said... Pretty sick. The only saving grace is that one can say rarely anybody over sgt makes a 1 vs 1 game.

[lanyards]

Thanks for the time you put into this e_i_pi.

CC only finds New Recruit farming to be punishable. New Recruits are not ranking by their score, but by how many games are played. Other ranks are based on score, and CC only doesn't want the officially ranked "New Recruits" to be farmed. So targeting certain ranks is allowed.

Also, this player could just be targeting Freestyle games in general. People that start freestyle games will get farmed usually and they drop in score. So maybe mainly only the lower ranks have open freestyle 1v1 games open, so this player could just be playing what settings he likes, regardless the opponents. This could be taken into consideration.

[e_i_pi]

Fitz and Bruce, I agree. There is a large grey area here. For as many people that feel this behaviour is unacceptable, there are as many who would find it acceptable, and I surmise a large proportion who wouldn't care one way or another. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances as well (such as mostly Sergeants and below making 1v1 games), so I don't believe it is fair to call this person out, but I do think that this person should have a good look at their own behaviour and whether or not it is fitting of an ambassador...

Fastpost by Lanyards
I can say 126 of the games are Freestyle, meaning 331 are Sequential. And yes I agree, if someone starts a 1v1 FS, they are setting themselves up for a loss. It is widely considered to be a bonus to start first, so creating a 1v1 FS game pretty much guarantees that you will start second.

But yes, you have to take into consideration all the facts, and many are mitigating. I myself play a fair amount of 1v1, sticking to sequential (I prefer Seq), and I don't care who I play, which is why I both start games and join games. I'm sure someone could make a case against me for farming - I play a lot of 1v1 AmCivWar on Chained, No Spoils, Seq settings. I enjoy these setting very much - am I specialising, enjoying a setting, or farming? It is a very grey area.

[jefjef]

What it says to me is this person is afraid to play veteran players......... what a wimp...................................

[lanyards]

I don't think there will ever be a easy way to pin down what a limit to what is considered farming and what isn't. I think the rule now is the best they can do, and iancanton, yes, isn't farming or breaking any rules.

[lanyards]

And the truth is, after time passes the New Recruits lose their rank and it becomes even harder to prove that someone is farming.

[AAFitz]

Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

This is the rule page again. It seems to imply that people use some judgement in their actions. Now, under this statement, it very well could be decided that someone joining many players that are "new" meaning only been here a short time, or small number of games, is breaking this rule. Its certainly general enough to interpret that way. So, if a player is targeting new players, it is possible he will get a warning for it.

It is obviously the intent of the rule to stop such farming, and if a player decides to join players with very few games, and simply avoid those with question marks, its obvious they are just trying to technically get away with the same thing, and therefore could indeed be breaking the spirit of the unwritten rule.

Anyone who has read this rule, and joins new players repeatedly, is obviously taking some chances. The fact that so far, only new recruits have been specifically protected does not mean that that will not, and can not extend to all new players.

I think its safe to say a player with 10 games is not much more experienced than one with 3 games. Further, if that player is especially good at that map, then its fairly obvious it is farming, and may very well be against this rule as written.

I have no doubt, that this is what it is meant to stop, and have no doubt that in the future, will be more specifically explained so as to stop such explicit farming.

[AAFitz]

Fitz and Bruce, I agree. There is a large grey area here. For as many people that feel this behaviour is unacceptable, there are as many who would find it acceptable, and I surmise a large proportion who wouldn't care one way or another. There are a lot of mitigating circumstances as well (such as mostly Sergeants and below making 1v1 games), so I don't believe it is fair to call this person out, but I do think that this person should have a good look at their own behaviour and whether or not it is fitting of an ambassador...

Fastpost by Lanyards
I can say 126 of the games are Freestyle, meaning 331 are Sequential. And yes I agree, if someone starts a 1v1 FS, they are setting themselves up for a loss. It is widely considered to be a bonus to start first, so creating a 1v1 FS game pretty much guarantees that you will start second.

But yes, you have to take into consideration all the facts, and many are mitigating. I myself play a fair amount of 1v1, sticking to sequential (I prefer Seq), and I don't care who I play, which is why I both start games and join games. I'm sure someone could make a case against me for farming - I play a lot of 1v1 AmCivWar on Chained, No Spoils, Seq settings. I enjoy these setting very much - am I specialising, enjoying a setting, or farming? It is a very grey area.

There is a grey area, but if you set up the games, then you have no control over who joins. Quite frankly, before punishing you of having new recruits or new players join your games, youd have to have some control to block them out first...or at least warn them.

However, for a player that joins new players, they have perfect control, and then its just a question of how much they do it. If someone joins a bunch of games with new players, then they are farming, and breaking the point of the rule. Because of its subjectivity, obviously the mods have to interpret, and there will always be some grey area. However, If player x joins a bunch of players with 5 games, 10 games etc...its safe to say he is farming, and going against what the rule was made for, and the only question becomes what happens next. The same goes for player Y who may do it but very slightly, or player Z who goes crazy joining a huge amount of games against the newest of players, and simply waiting till they have 5 games in hopes of getting off as a technicallity. The problem is, the rules have always been open to interpretation, and if a player is seen to be breaking the obvious spirit of them...then they have been warned. Nearly every new rule and situation has been approached this way.

That is the purpose of the "abuse of game", and "unwritten rules". It implies not trying to get away with gross abuse, or breaking the spirit of the rules with technicalites and always has.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

this is farming out the ass.

[slowreactor]

Challenge this guy to a series of 1v1s, half on your settings, half on his, and let's see if he can still win a good number of them. That can usually show how good that player actually is.

[alster]

Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

This is the rule page again. It seems to imply that people use some judgement in their actions. Now, under this statement, it very well could be decided that someone joining many players that are "new" meaning only been here a short time, or small number of games, is breaking this rule. Its certainly general enough to interpret that way. So, if a player is targeting new players, it is possible he will get a warning for it.

Mmmm… a textualist? Never mind imply this and that. The rule is spelled out, it’s just a matter of construing the term systematically "farming" new members.

systematic – “in an organized manner”; “characterized by order and planning”
new – “not of long duration; having just (or relatively recently) come into being or been made or acquired or discovered”

There you go, fairly construe a behaviour to be as such (within the ordinary meaning of the words), then the the rule covers it.

It is obviously the intent of the rule to stop such farming, and if a player decides to join players with very few games, and simply avoid those with question marks, its obvious they are just trying to technically get away with the same thing, and therefore could indeed be breaking the spirit of the unwritten rule.

And no… then you had to say “intent”. But well then -

New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby lackattack on Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:07 pm

"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits to gain easy points by taking advantage of difficult game options and the fact the New Recruits are more likely to deadbeat. Some players have been farming extensively - even sending hundreds of PMs to the latest members to get them into their games.

This is a gross abuse of the game. It gives the New Recruit "victims" a poor first experience and reduces the chances of them sticking around. As farmers move up the scoreboard it also harms the competitive nature of Conquer Club - the scoreboard is meant to measure skill in the game, not "harvesting" techniques.

In accordance with the desires and feedback of the majority of the community, our rules and as a new leaf for 2009, it is our New Years resolution to make Newbie Farming forbidden. Members who continue this practice will receive point resets and then progressively longer website bans.

This does not mean you will get in trouble for joining a game here and there with many new recruits. We are only talking about the systematic targeting of new recruits.

We have taken the following measures to stop Newbie Farming:

* For New Recruits, we filtered out game options from the join page if they reduce the chance of new players reaching their 1st promotion (see here here and here).
* We shut down any usergroups with a focus on Newbie Farming.
* We are sending individual warnings to the Farmers Guild and select other users who have practiced farming in the past. These should be arriving soon.

Clearly, the ”intent” was to prohibit systematic targeting of privates/???s. So far, my impression is that the hunters/mods have adhered to this intent and only issued warnings for people that should slow it down a notch playing these privates/???s.

[AAFitz]

Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

This is the rule page again. It seems to imply that people use some judgement in their actions. Now, under this statement, it very well could be decided that someone joining many players that are "new" meaning only been here a short time, or small number of games, is breaking this rule. Its certainly general enough to interpret that way. So, if a player is targeting new players, it is possible he will get a warning for it.

Mmmm… a textualist? Never mind imply this and that. The rule is spelled out, it’s just a matter of construing the term systematically "farming" new members.

systematic – “in an organized manner”; “characterized by order and planning”
new – “not of long duration; having just (or relatively recently) come into being or been made or acquired or discovered”

There you go, fairly construe a behaviour to be as such (within the ordinary meaning of the words), then the the rule covers it.

It is obviously the intent of the rule to stop such farming, and if a player decides to join players with very few games, and simply avoid those with question marks, its obvious they are just trying to technically get away with the same thing, and therefore could indeed be breaking the spirit of the unwritten rule.

And no… then you had to say “intent”. But well then -

New Years Resolution: Newbie Farming is not Cool.

Postby lackattack on Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:07 pm

"Newbie Farming" is the technique of setting up as many games as possible (either by starting or joining them) with New Recruits to gain easy points by taking advantage of difficult game options and the fact the New Recruits are more likely to deadbeat. Some players have been farming extensively - even sending hundreds of PMs to the latest members to get them into their games.

This is a gross abuse of the game. It gives the New Recruit "victims" a poor first experience and reduces the chances of them sticking around. As farmers move up the scoreboard it also harms the competitive nature of Conquer Club - the scoreboard is meant to measure skill in the game, not "harvesting" techniques.

In accordance with the desires and feedback of the majority of the community, our rules and as a new leaf for 2009, it is our New Years resolution to make Newbie Farming forbidden. Members who continue this practice will receive point resets and then progressively longer website bans.

This does not mean you will get in trouble for joining a game here and there with many new recruits. We are only talking about the systematic targeting of new recruits.

We have taken the following measures to stop Newbie Farming:

* For New Recruits, we filtered out game options from the join page if they reduce the chance of new players reaching their 1st promotion (see here here and here).
* We shut down any usergroups with a focus on Newbie Farming.
* We are sending individual warnings to the Farmers Guild and select other users who have practiced farming in the past. These should be arriving soon.

Clearly, the ”intent” was to prohibit systematic targeting of privates/???s. So far, my impression is that the hunters/mods have adhered to this intent and only issued warnings for people that should slow it down a notch playing these privates/???s.

So far that may very well be what has been done. However, that does not mean that a player joining a bunch of new players, with 30 games, 20 games, 10 games or less might still not be seen as a farmer. It very easily could be seen as a gross abuse of the rules, and quite frankly obviously is farming in ever sense of the word. Unless you are saying that a player is new at 4 games, and experienced at 10 games.

Farming is a new situation that CC is dealing with. Its safe to say it will evolve, especially if player try to manipulate it, and target the newest players.

[a.sub]

am i to believe that if i played 100's of games against cook sits not farming because they arent defined as new players?
NO


yes i believe that iancanton is guilty of farming for all the reason listed by the OP

show

Courtesy Maxatstuy for the information

[karelpietertje]

Now, it seems pretty obvious to me that this player is targetting Cooks and Cadets, while generally avoiding Sergeant 1st Class and above. Cooks and Cadets make up 17% of the scoreboard, yet they make up 42% of this players opponents.

not necessarily... usually highranks don't set up 1v1 freestyle casual games.
(well on Mogul it's a different map of course )

This guy might have just been joining 1v1 freestyle casual, since this can give you an advantage (it can be like sequential except being certain to go first), regardless of rank.

[a.sub]

Now, it seems pretty obvious to me that this player is targetting Cooks and Cadets, while generally avoiding Sergeant 1st Class and above. Cooks and Cadets make up 17% of the scoreboard, yet they make up 42% of this players opponents.

not necessarily... usually highranks don't set up 1v1 freestyle casual games.
(well on Mogul it's a different map of course )

This guy might have just been joining 1v1 freestyle casual, since this can give you an advantage (it can be like sequential except being certain to go first), regardless of rank.

a quick search shows that of the 27 1v1 freestyles waiting for players only 5 are below serg1st and 0 are cadet or cook

meaning that if your assumption is correct it furthers teh case of guilt as they are targeting a MAJOR minority in 1v1 freestyle games, the cooks and cadets which constitute roughly half their games

EDIT: there wasnt 17 games, there were 27. correction in red

[Bruceswar]

I play casual freestyle 1 vs 1 games, at times. Rarely does anybody over sgt start a game. With that said, start your own. It will fill quick and you can be right on target for when the other player starts.

[e_i_pi]

For those that didn't read it the first time I posted...

I can say 126 of the games are Freestyle, meaning 331 are Sequential. And yes I agree, if someone starts a 1v1 FS, they are setting themselves up for a loss. It is widely considered to be a bonus to start first, so creating a 1v1 FS game pretty much guarantees that you will start second.

This isn't about Freestyle games, it's about the rank of the opponent, and their freemium status

[AAFitz]

For those that didn't read it the first time I posted...

I can say 126 of the games are Freestyle, meaning 331 are Sequential. And yes I agree, if someone starts a 1v1 FS, they are setting themselves up for a loss. It is widely considered to be a bonus to start first, so creating a 1v1 FS game pretty much guarantees that you will start second.

This isn't about Freestyle games, it's about the rank of the opponent, and their freemium status

Well, to me, all ranks should be fair game to some degree. It is a wold domination game. Personally, I think its only the newest of players that should be free of the farming from the few players that do it. Now obviously, someone has to join their games, but if players were kept from joining lots of new players, there would be much less farming, and the new players would at least not be getting picked off by a select few. No doubt they will always be targeted by someone, but by limiting it, it will be much better.

[Bruceswar]

I am sorry, but when I person does not play people of his rank, it is then inflated past his skill level, and thus the farming occurs. Sure mixing some games in is fine, but all the time is too much. Personally beating up on low ranks is not fun, nor really in the spirit of the game.

[AAFitz]

I am sorry, but when I person does not play people of his rank, it is then inflated past his skill level, and thus the farming occurs. Sure mixing some games in is fine, but all the time is too much. Personally beating up on low ranks is not fun, nor really in the spirit of the game.

Well, to some degree you are correct, but since the scoring doesnt necessarily reflect skill...ironically partly do to farming...then a colonel who has farmed to get there, and a seargent that simply plays silly games, and is good, but doesnt care about points, arent all that far away in skill level theoretically. As far as repeatedly joining them, I agree its wrong, but compared to joining the newest players, its nothing. If someone has played 500 games or so, I honestly dont think the rank matters. To some degree the rank has to be a decision at that point, and not necessarily a reflection of actual skill.

[king achilles]

Were these people already Cooks/Cadets/Privates when they all had a game with this player? Or were they still new recruits at the time? I don't think we have a rule that specifically prohibits players from playing lower ranked opponents. A player is still a player even if he is "low ranked" right now.

[Bruceswar]

Were these people already Cooks/Cadets/Privates when they all had a game with this player? Or were they still new recruits at the time? I don't think we have a rule that specifically prohibits players from playing lower ranked opponents. A player is still a player even if he is "low ranked" right now.

Do you know if any updates to the rules on this will be made? If so a time frame?