Is using second, or third game as decider against the rules

[AAFitz]

This was going to come up at some point, and now it has rather publicly. Having seen it, and been directly involved in such cases, ill bring it up for discussion as a whole, with plenty of examples, and possibly guilty players, including myself, depending upon how the point dumping/game throwing rule is applied.

Often, in build games, people get annoyed and suggest, or make another decider game, hoping it doesnt stalemate
the other players agree to lose the first game, in an effort to end it fairly. Personally, I prefer to play them out, but may very well have done this before... I really cant remember, but Its safe to assume I have, given the number of build games Ive been in. While technically, losing a game is throwing a game, and theoretically point dumping, it really isnt what the rule was meant to cover. In these cases, they are all an effort to just amicably resolve a game, and has been done for years, and by many, many players. For this thread I give some examples of some great players that have done it. I know of many more, but this should suffice for now, unless someone wants to join in with a fellow "accusation", or admission.

Is this point dumping? Should it be illegal? How should it be dealt with.

Or, as long as the scale is small, and obviously just to end a game, be allowed?

AAFitz
DEMOSTH3NES
Donkey
jiminski
Robinette
David_Wain
Greycloak
jiminski
Naato
maniacmath17
subprime
sully800
juventino
RL Orange
Karlo Veliki
ballenus
Beadle
Forefall
artur1
Chariot of Fire
Greycloak
Clearwater fl
AndrewB
jbeaver
joecoolfrog
hatchman
comic boy
Bruceswar
jabajabba
el counto
Hesoos



Examples below:

aafitz I think*
Only proposed: DEMOSTH3NES how about a pact? we hit a thousand rounds, we launch a tiebreaker.
2009-05-29 22:52:41 - Donkey: With escalating cards, so there is little chance of another stalemate?
Only ProposedDonkey Donkey: We're at an impasse here... Obviously you guys can't afford to let me keep my bonus intact, but I plan on murder/suiciding the next player to hit me. There is another option that I'd like to throw out there; we could choose to restart this game...
2008-07-06 17:30:09 - Donkey: with just the four of us, but this time we have escalating cards(winner gets handed this game). It'd be nice to get all four of us to agree, but we don't NEED to, really. As long as three agree, we can just rub the fourth out and start a 3 player game.
jiminski

xxx-xx-xx 17:30:20 - jiminski: we could set up a 5 man game .. perhaps classic as they are less prone to Stalemate? .. then we make it a winner takes all ... both games with the rest of us commiting suicide while the winner picks up the spoils!

*Intentially deadbeated e_i_pi : I may have to drop this game guys, as I'm going freemium and I have clan league commitments
2009-03-03 22:46:35 - e_i_pi: I've seen idiots suicide when this happens to them, but I have a little more decorum... would you guys prefer if I simply deadbeated? I know it's a pain, but I really have to trim my games down
2009-03-03 22:46:52 - e_i_pi: This game seems to be one of those ones that will go for 6 months +

Robinette: How about we do a 5p std esc game and winner take all... or one for each of these 2 games
2009-02-22 20:21:21 - Robinette: oh wait.. sully's not in the other one... okay, we all kill sully, THEN we start a couple 4p games... lol
2009-02-22 20:34:35 - juventino: or let me win the 6p one...
2009-02-22 20:35:55 - juventino: or.... lets not do this since we are not all doing it?
2009-02-22 21:33:24 - sully800: who isn't?

David_Wain [Game]Game 949774[/Game]
Greycloak "" ""
jiminski "" ""
Naato "" ""
maniacmath17 "" ""
subprime"" ""


RL Orange viewtopic.php?f=5&t=90481
Karlo Veliki

ON this one...something very similar came very close to happening...and it was me who almost caused it:
Game 3716398
ballenus 4.8
Beadle 4.9
Forefall suicided in this one, ..and about 5 others before he left..usually into me...often throwing the game
artur1
Chariot of Fire
Greycloak
Clearwater fl
AndrewB


ballenus: I've created a foggy esc. on this map. Pwd=no chariot.
2009-05-28 15:36:47 - ballenus: pwd = no chariot and game number is 4975485. In this one, we just do what we have done over the last 100 turns : take turn, drop and no attack...
2009-05-29 06:28:34 - Clearwater fl: I joined. We had some skirmishes with this game in a few rounds. Anyone willing to at least engage in small attacks or maneuvers LOL
2009-05-29 11:57:48 - AndrewB: in
2009-05-30 10:11:09 - Clearwater fl: beadle. I lost 10 and you lost 8
2009-05-30 11:29:37 - Beadle: in
2009-06-01 08:45:46 - ballenus: arthur, are you joining the tie break?
2009-06-01 23:20:21 - Beadle: Lets kill him!
2009-06-02 16:59:37 - artur1: sure
2009-06-03 08:05:08 - ballenus: ...but in the other game! no more attack here until we have a winner in the other game....
2009-06-03 20:14:46 - AndrewB: agreed
2009-06-20 17:18:08 - AndrewB: so... are you going to kill each other or deadbeat?
2009-06-21 16:30:27 - Clearwater fl: beadle could not kill all of your armies
2009-06-22 17:27:09 - Clearwater fl: this is fitz here for clear water, but i dont want to end this
2009-06-22 17:27:27 - Clearwater fl: hmmm maybe im not supposed to
2009-06-22 17:27:50 - Clearwater fl: glad i thought about this for a second

and from the follow up game:
artur1: however I have played alot with Clearwaters dubbel partner (AAfitz) he is one of the greatest on the site.
Maybe that isnt relevant...but ill leave it just in case.

A new variation:
Forefall: In one of my other three way stalemates, 2 of the players assigned a player to the letters A, B, or C
2008-02-25 18:11:02 - Forefall: the third player pick a letter at random and then the player whose number was chosen was allowed to win
2008-02-25 18:11:08 - Forefall: would you guys be interested in that?
arch: no
2008-02-27 14:23:57 - arch: I have a better suggestion how about we each choice a player to attack and whoever kill his destinate first will allowed to win
2008-02-27 14:27:56 - arch: it's just like assian but the only difference we will know each of our target


General K
jbeaver
Beadle

joecoolfrog
hatchman: France 1789, Iceland, Portugal, Netherlands... any of these? All are similar size yeilding 7 starting positions.
2009-06-22 10:06:08 - Beadle: May be France 1789
2009-06-22 12:18:22 - joecoolfrog: Iceland or Portugal....dont know Erance 1789
2009-06-22 15:43:52 - hatchman: Iceland it is... PM coming now guys
2009-06-23 06:46:41 - hatchman: No more cards please guys
2009-06-23 09:23:56 - jbeaver: got no pm
2009-06-23 10:41:52 - hatchman: whoops sorry Beaver...
2009-06-29 06:15:32 - hatchman: well, LOL, the Iceland winner will win this one too
2009-06-29 06:16:01 - hatchman: Is that what you mean?
2009-06-29 17:49:32 - hatchman: Umm LOL. No not that game. This one: Game 5132075 which we are playing now in Round 5.
2009-06-29 17:49:46 - hatchman: Winner there takes both.

comic boy...honestly...several.. ill find them

Bruceswar› Game 4341526


The accused are suspected of:

Possibly Throwing Games and point dumping.



Game number(s):

Game 1523340
Game 1523340
Countless others.



Comments: In cases where this is just a convenient means to end a game, and no one is cheated, it seems to me no more illegal than suiciding into someone because they attacked you too much.. That technically, could be considered throwing a game, but clearly, its just all part of the game, and cant really be affected by the rules.

These situations too, are very small incidents of making an agreed end, to a long game, and clearly are not to be any dishonest abuse of the game in any way. It isnt meant to cheat anyone. Isnt meant to steal points. Its simply meant to end a game that wont end. Perhaps the rules have to address it now, but I think its fairly clear, that it is a common practice, most do not consider it what the point dumping rules/game throwing rules were meant to stop.

They were meant to stop Point dumping. I believe dugcarr got it added to the rules, when he dropped quite a few...two games to me as a matter of fact. its also been used to stop friends from shedding points to friends to help them advance or for other reasons.

So far, its never been used to prevent, punish tie-breaking games, which is exactly what the present case with RL is all about.

[jiminski]

yeap I am Spartacus!

put jiminski on there - i already admitted this heinous crime in the other thread.

I Jiminski have agreed to make a decider game due to the original being agreed by all players in said game to be a stalemate and unresolvable in a reasonable time or fashion! I further agreed to surrender the first, original game to the winner of the replacement game.


do you need the game number?

[dezzy26]

yes it is against the rules regardless of however small scale it is
Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

the fact that players have agreed upon a second or third game should have no bearing on the case imo

if you think about it the people creating multis is only small scale really but thats against the rules .
i personally think rules are rules and should be adhered to regardless of other contributing factor

[jiminski]

yeap I am Spartacus!

put jiminski on there - i already admitted this heinous crime in the other thread.

I Jiminski have agreed to make a decider game due to the original being agreed by all players in said game to be a stalemate and unresolvable in a reasonable time or fashion! I further agreed to surrender the first, original game to the winner of the replacement game.


do you need the game number?

would you like the game number? though i would rather not incriminate my fellow conspirators unduly.

[AAFitz]

yeap I am Spartacus!

put jiminski on there - i already admitted this heinous crime in the other thread.

I Jiminski have agreed to make a decider game due to the original being agreed by all players in said game to be a stalemate and unresolvable in a reasonable time or fashion! I further agreed to surrender the first, original game to the winner of the replacement game.


do you need the game number?

would you like the game number? though i would rather not incriminate my fellow conspirators unduly.

ill find it.. im on the hunt... watch the next name...

[Bruceswar]

yes it is against the rules regardless of however small scale it is
Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

the fact that players have agreed upon a second or third game should have no bearing on the case imo

if you think about it the people creating multis is only small scale really but thats against the rules .
i personally think rules are rules and should be adhered to regardless of other contributing factor

That is not what the rule is meant for. Deciding games have been used forever to decide a game which has gone stale. CC has never once said a thing about it. I doubt they will now. You obviously have never been in one that has gone stale. We have used 101 ways to decide the game. As long as everybody agrees then all is OK.

[dezzy26]

how often has it been reported before tho?
and how often is something like this been looked for
unless its done on a large scale that is

sorry but to me the rule was written so it wouldnt/shouldnt happen at all

[e_i_pi]

*Intentially deadbeated and threw game...e_i_pi

Nice try, but I didn't throw the game Fitz, I intentionally (yep that's right, there's an 'o' and an 'n' in there as well) deadbeated to free up games as I was going freemium.

I think Andy Dufresne sums it up here:

If you are found intentionally deadbeating repeatedly, there unfortunately will be disciplinary action.

Considering that is the only time I have intentionally deadbeated, and it wasn't in any way to my benefit or the benefit of anyone else, well, i'll leave it up to the mods to make the decision, you know. Keep in mind I didn't do it intentionally 11 times in a row to benefit someone elses points... (I'm assuming that's what this is about)

[AAFitz]

*Intentially deadbeated and threw game...e_i_pi

Nice try, but I didn't throw the game Fitz...

this is all just me asking for definitions of the rules here...You needed to get out of a game, so you deadbeated or threw it...both listed as against the rules, arent they?

[ahunda]

yes it is against the rules regardless of however small scale it is
Unwritten Rules

Obviously any gross abuse of the game is forbidden. This includes but is not limited to: throwing games or deliberately benefiting from thrown games, intentional deadbeating, serial teammate killing, hijacking accounts, systematically "farming" new members.

the fact that players have agreed upon a second or third game should have no bearing on the case imo

if you think about it the people creating multis is only small scale really but thats against the rules .
i personally think rules are rules and should be adhered to regardless of other contributing factor

sorry but to me the rule was written so it wouldnt/shouldnt happen at all

Nope. The quoted rule was created to address a completely different & unrelated problem: People who created dozens of games with the sole intention to lose them all & dump several hundred points. And the people, who jumped into dozens of those games to "earn" some free & easy points. That is gross abuse.

Players agreeing, that their game is going nowhere, is not any fun for them and needs some kind of resolution, is an entirely different issue. Nobody agrees to throw points away there. The agreement is to play a game, that is worth twice the points. So the winner still "earns" his points by winning a hard-fought battle, fair & square. It is an emergency solution, but I don´t see, where abuse is coming in here.

And Fitz: I think, you can safely put all the high-ranking regular Escalating players on that list. I could post quite a list of names & game numbers, but I don´t want to get anyone involved in this issue against his/her will ...

[e_i_pi]

2009-03-04 02:45:56 - e_i_pi: I may have to drop this game guys, as I'm going freemium and I have clan league commitments
2009-03-04 02:46:35 - e_i_pi: I've seen idiots suicide when this happens to them, but I have a little more decorum... would you guys prefer if I simply deadbeated? I know it's a pain, but I really have to trim my games down
2009-03-04 02:46:52 - e_i_pi: This game seems to be one of those ones that will go for 6 months +
2009-03-04 16:56:46 - Shatners Bassoon: fine with me pi
2009-03-04 21:13:41 - Clanlord Carl: yeah plz dont suicide...
2009-03-05 06:55:15 - Chariot of Fire: sorry u have to withdraw from this pi (but you're right...it could be a long one). Appreciate your honourable exit mate. Adios
2009-03-05 06:56:05 - Chariot of Fire: went to a BBQ last night Redfelt?
2009-03-06 06:26:38 - e_i_pi: ok, i'm deadbeating from hereon in, means I'll be kicked after my turn expires in round 66
2009-03-06 06:27:09 - e_i_pi: Again, sorry about this guys, but at least I'm giving everyone the heads up, so you're all on the same footing as a result of it, and can make preparations
2009-03-07 06:49:55 - Redfelt: excellent answer, baby backs, filet, bratwurst
2009-03-11 07:54:17 - e_i_pi: Go go gadget Switzerland!
2009-03-14 06:04:49 - Chariot of Fire: goodbye pi. honourable exit mate.
2009-03-17 19:06:39 - Redfelt: just having a look around shat
2009-03-20 17:07:29 - Chariot of Fire: lol - pi had his membership renewed by a fan
2009-03-23 13:54:14 - Redfelt: jaba for redfelt
2009-03-23 20:35:02 - AAFitz: so thankful to see someone leave without the need to spend every army..

Thanks for quoting all the relevant parts AA, and especially on missing out the part where you patted me on the back at the time. Great retrospective hypocricy there mate, bravo

[dezzy26]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

[e_i_pi]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

No probs, let the mods punish away

[AAFitz]

2009-03-04 02:45:56 - e_i_pi: I may have to drop this game guys, as I'm going freemium and I have clan league commitments
2009-03-04 02:46:35 - e_i_pi: I've seen idiots suicide when this happens to them, but I have a little more decorum... would you guys prefer if I simply deadbeated? I know it's a pain, but I really have to trim my games down
2009-03-04 02:46:52 - e_i_pi: This game seems to be one of those ones that will go for 6 months +
2009-03-04 16:56:46 - Shatners Bassoon: fine with me pi
2009-03-04 21:13:41 - Clanlord Carl: yeah plz dont suicide...
2009-03-05 06:55:15 - Chariot of Fire: sorry u have to withdraw from this pi (but you're right...it could be a long one). Appreciate your honourable exit mate. Adios
2009-03-05 06:56:05 - Chariot of Fire: went to a BBQ last night Redfelt?
2009-03-06 06:26:38 - e_i_pi: ok, i'm deadbeating from hereon in, means I'll be kicked after my turn expires in round 66
2009-03-06 06:27:09 - e_i_pi: Again, sorry about this guys, but at least I'm giving everyone the heads up, so you're all on the same footing as a result of it, and can make preparations
2009-03-07 06:49:55 - Redfelt: excellent answer, baby backs, filet, bratwurst
2009-03-11 07:54:17 - e_i_pi: Go go gadget Switzerland!
2009-03-14 06:04:49 - Chariot of Fire: goodbye pi. honourable exit mate.
2009-03-17 19:06:39 - Redfelt: just having a look around shat
2009-03-20 17:07:29 - Chariot of Fire: lol - pi had his membership renewed by a fan
2009-03-23 13:54:14 - Redfelt: jaba for redfelt
2009-03-23 20:35:02 - AAFitz: so thankful to see someone leave without the need to spend every army..

Thanks for quoting all the relevant parts AA, and especially on missing out the part where you patted me on the back at the time. Great retrospective hypocricy there mate, bravo

no hypocracy at all... i indeed think there is nothing wrong with it.. .people do it all the time... I think it would be beyond silly to punish such an innocent act, which is both sportsmanlike and not cheating anyone...but technically... it is against the rules to drop out of a game correct? its intentional deadbeating? In this case just because you wanted another game and no longer had premium. But can all non premiums deadbeat to get new games?

I once again thank you for not throwing the game instead by suiciding which, technically could be considered against the throwing a game, correct?

again, youre the one with the rules avatar, not me... im just asking the question.

[JOHNNYROCKET24]

I say bust them all since it is impossible to have a stalemate ...only staleplayers

[AAFitz]

I say bust them all since it is impossible to have a stalemate ...only staleplayers

Well help me with the list then.. we can rid the site of all of these players...

[jiminski]

I say bust them all since it is impossible to have a stalemate ...only staleplayers

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=50629&hilit

Lack is more keen on trying to solve all "stalemate solutions" at once. But he knows about the topic, so that's all we can do for now. Keep getting some more support.


--Andy

[e_i_pi]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

By the way dezzy, you might want to keep clean laundry yourself before you start slinging mud around...
Game 5125391
Game 5120375
Game 5071507
Game 5069955
Game 5059031
Game 5059030
Game 5038030
Game 5030835
Game 5015470
Game 5015000
...all in the past month

[Bruceswar]

how often has it been reported before tho?
and how often is something like this been looked for
unless its done on a large scale that is

sorry but to me the rule was written so it wouldnt/shouldnt happen at all

Not often because most people know what is going on. This one just happened to get a bit sticky with an account sitter who did not know a deciding game was being played.

[AAFitz]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

By the way dezzy, you might want to keep clean laundry yourself before you start slinging mud around...
Game 5125391
Game 5120375
Game 5071507
Game 5069955
Game 5059031
Game 5059030
Game 5038030
Game 5030835
Game 5015470
Game 5015000
...all in the past month

Well, no question about the rule being actually broken on this one...nice catch

[dezzy26]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

By the way dezzy, you might want to keep clean laundry yourself before you start slinging mud around...
Game 5125391
Game 5120375
Game 5071507
Game 5069955
Game 5059031
Game 5059030
Game 5038030
Game 5030835
Game 5015470
Game 5015000
...all in the past month

hang on a minute post the rest of the games i joined too things will look alot different

[e_i_pi]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

By the way dezzy, you might want to keep clean laundry yourself before you start slinging mud around...
Game 5125391
Game 5120375
Game 5071507
Game 5069955
Game 5059031
Game 5059030
Game 5038030
Game 5030835
Game 5015470
Game 5015000
...all in the past month

hang on a minute post the rest of the games i joined too things will look alot different

Or I could go find all the players that are no longer NR's, but were at the time. Your call

[AAFitz]

however or for whatever the reason the rule was intended does'nt change the fact that the rule now stands

regardless of players agreements in a game the rule is being broke
therefore warrants punishment

By the way dezzy, you might want to keep clean laundry yourself before you start slinging mud around...
Game 5125391
Game 5120375
Game 5071507
Game 5069955
Game 5059031
Game 5059030
Game 5038030
Game 5030835
Game 5015470
Game 5015000
...all in the past month

you joined 10 new recriuts in a month.. if thats not systematic nothing is but this is really better explained in your farmers cheating thread


hang on a minute post the rest of the games i joined too things will look alot different

[dezzy26]

yeah i'm more than happy for you to do that too buddy

if i1m at fault and breaking the rules ban me

as i said rule breaking is rule breaking

[AAFitz]

yeah i'm more than happy for you to do that too buddy

please post on topic and discuss this in your own thread please and not derail this one...

im sure eipi will be happy to set it up for you.

thanks guys.