Friends & Enemies & Enemies & That Other Guy - Wolves Won

[pmchugh]

Loose, you never did answer, how can discount Max? What line of reasoning are you following to reach that conclusion?

Not saying it is him, but I do think it should easily reveal the flaws in your thinking process here.

[pmchugh]

Sorry if I come across a bit preachy at times, just frustrated because I feel a loss incoming.

[Maxleod]

Sorry if I come across a bit preachy at times, just frustrated because I feel a loss incoming.

[Loose Canon]

PMC your posts about ew are 90% reminding us you said a helpful EW is a scum EW, and a lot of those came after EW was killed.

1. People just don't follow other players first instincts they almost discount them because why should another players first instincts be better than your own?
2,. It' maybe true it maybe not that helpful EW is scum ew but it reads like it could be hokum, so it's discounted as evidence based.
3. You keep keeping reminding us of it explicitly and subtly ,- that's brilliant play on your part ,,- as scum

Finally I'm not saying this is how it happened but it could be;

You were being lined up to perhaps replace max at one point.
You'd read everything that had happened till then.
Not known what alignment max was
You'd come up with your neutral read then that helpful EW is scum ew
Realised when you were subbed in for Kong that actually that line and the Traf one were brilliant intros for you, and would disguise your alignment with EW perfectly.

Sorry the way you,' be played your ew line whilst quite brilliant is now condemning you - in my book

[Loose Canon]

PMC , max is heavily discounted as being with EW because ew voted max D1 with a vote and post he would have found very difficult to get off of, gave momentum to my let's lynch max wagon, and could have led to Max's lynching.
As you said yourself - would have been terrible play on EWs part

[Loose Canon]

Yep totally understand your frustration PMC think that's real.

You've played brilliantly don't deserve to lose
As town you've played brilliantly
As scum you've played brilliantly

Don't know for sure which it is yet.

But if you're lynched you'd lose either way and for a player that's played brilliantly must feel mega frustrating

[pmchugh]

PMC your posts about ew are 90% reminding us you said a helpful EW is a scum EW, and a lot of those came after EW was killed.

Wrong, that part is fakeable. The part I keep harping on about is when I told both scum factions to kill EW.

Why is this a big deal?

1. EW has zero defence from this, he can't bargain with the other scum team.
2. It was a very good idea and they listened to me
3. Doing so did not buy me town cred, because I easily could have been in the other scum team and said this. It had no benefit until they were all dead.
4. I was under some pressure and EW wasn't

Doing this would have been so stupid.

[pmchugh]

Sorry if I come across a bit preachy at times, just frustrated because I feel a loss incoming.

Yeah, great contribution.

[pmchugh]

PMC , max is heavily discounted as being with EW because ew voted max D1 with a vote and post he would have found very difficult to get off of, gave momentum to my let's lynch max wagon, and could have led to Max's lynching.
As you said yourself - would have been terrible play on EWs part

I agree to some extent but it was very likely heading for no lynch and some people had explicitly said they didn't want to lynch Max. It is a calculated controllable risk.

Now compare this with what I did with EW, EW was never getting lynched. I point this out, and encourage him to be shot, which he is. Maybe you could say it happens without my comment, maybe it does, but you definitely don't want to plant that idea when he is your team mate, and one of the best players here.

I don't see how you can look at that Max vote and think it looks more distancing than my call for him to be night killed.

[Loose Canon]

PMC your posts about ew are 90% reminding us you said a helpful EW is a scum EW, and a lot of those came after EW was killed.

Wrong, that part is fakeable. The part I keep harping on about is when I told both scum factions to kill EW.

Why is this a big deal?

1. EW has zero defence from this, he can't bargain with the other scum team.
2. It was a very good idea and they listened to me
3. Doing so did not buy me town cred, because I easily could have been in the other scum team and said this. It had no benefit until they were all dead.
4. I was under some pressure and EW wasn't

Doing this would have been so stupid.

Maybe point to me where you were telling both scum teams to kill EW.
Genuinely not really on my radar.

[pmchugh]

OK I got to the end.

...

EW is probably scum, but pointless to try lynch him. If you are in either evil faction just shoot him. Cause if he is town he can catch you when he pays attention and if he is in the other faction he has high chances of guiding his team to success.

...
PMC is probably just town, catching up the way he did is townie - making reads as he goes? I dont like his read on me and getting two factions to aim for me but what can you do. I also dont like how ...

...

Firstly, totally agree on night kills. The other Scum faction can both shoot them and vote them out and I would definitely be targeting the other side.

If both scum shoot you, one less death
...

[PepeAtila]

I keep harping on about my posts on EW because I think its absolutely bonkers that anyone could consider me scum, other than in a mafia forcing me to double triple guess myself kind of way. Maybe I am being unfair as I have that knowledge, I am sure the graveyard chat is thinking the same.

Pepe has gone quiet since you started suspecting me.

Max doesn't even respond to direct questions asked of him, EW was right, we should have lynched him day 1, what use is he here?

As for me being cagey with my vote, here are some things to notice; you are town and you are cagey with your vote, its MYLO, its not obvious. The real question is, why on earth are Max and Pepe so loose with their votes?

I have participated less because I have been busy and since september 15th I have less time.

[Loose Canon]

Pepe, I have read you as being genuinely frustrated and confused, but trying to contribute as much as you could.
Then to cap it all I was or at least you read it as me being rude to you.

It is ok if you still have a lot to learn about mafia games.
I'm in the same boat, we are all on the same journey there

You could still though, be a much better player already than I have given you credit for in this game, and be playing very deceptively.

That leads to a question I have of PMC.

PMC is there any evidence from previous games that Pepe has played that he was then a very good player?

[pmchugh]

Pepe, I have read you as being genuinely frustrated and confused, but trying to contribute as much as you could.
Then to cap it all I was or at least you read it as me being rude to you.

It is ok if you still have a lot to learn about mafia games.
I'm in the same boat, we are all on the same journey there

You could still though, be a much better player already than I have given you credit for in this game, and be playing very deceptively.

That leads to a question I have of PMC.

PMC is there any evidence from previous games that Pepe has played that he was then a very good player?

I thought Pepe was a very new player, he was certaibly relying on that day 1. We should meta him though, a big part of my inability to read him is not knowing what he is like normally.

[Maxleod]

PMC , max is heavily discounted as being with EW because ew voted max D1 with a vote and post he would have found very difficult to get off of, gave momentum to my let's lynch max wagon, and could have led to Max's lynching.
As you said yourself - would have been terrible play on EWs part

Well, that, and also, I'm the backup Mason

[pmchugh]

OK, I have hope of winning.

LC can you confirm Max as backup mason? If so, I know its Pepe and I just need to convince you and Max.

[pmchugh]

I mean, I assume that is not a lit because you aren't going to lie like that and just get yourself killed.

I have to say Pepe done two things I did not expect, and they are the same things I think that are weighing on LC.

1. Pepe never turned on Sonic, even after sonic turned on Pepe. This seemed principled.

My explanation: we heavily hinted this would make him look townie in thread, so he did it, simple.

2. DDS night kill

Pepe just made a rookie mistake and killed the wrong person, he thought the game was dead so killed whoever or he figured it night frame Max/me.

He just has to be either below or above average, and he can make that play.

If you ignore these two things, what has Pepe done this game?

Day 1 happily bandwaggonning anyone and everyone, but not EW.
EW does not help Pepe in thread, doesn't even acknowledge him.
He is attacked by devante.
Devante dies.

Day 2, out of nowhere, he attacks Traf and is correct, when everyone else is wrong. All of his other ideas in the thread were trash, but somehow he nails Traf? How? Because EW tells him it's traf in scum chat. Then traf dies that night.

Day 3, he teams up with sonic, the one guy defending him, but does not react to sonic betraying him and voting for him

Day 4, he declares Max scum who is about to win, then you guys come in for me and he switches to me, giving the worst reasoning ever, that I explain and then he doesn't react to at all

[pmchugh]

Vote Count:

Max (1) - Pepe
PMC (1) - Max

No Vote (2) - Loose, PMC

With 4 alive, 3 votes needed for a lynch!

PS: This is the last day, there will not be a night, if town lynch wolf, town wins, if town miss lynch, Wolves wins!

We could also vote no lynch and then there would be a night.

I think it is a bad idea ... I thought Max was the main suspect but this makes me change my mind
unvote vote PMC

What's more likely:

1. This is a genuine response, from all this game this is what makes Pepe think its me. Having a bad idea which I didn't even push.

2. He was looking for any excuse to explain his change of vote so he can win the game by voting me.

[Loose Canon]

Yes I can confirm max is a mason now

Do you have the sword max?

[pmchugh]

I would recommend reading some of Pepe's posts from when he was town:

viewtopic.php?f=610&t=239406&sk=a&start=900

His English has improved since then, nice work Pepe, I know how hard it is to learn languages! But otherwise he seems much freer, more logical and less newbie. When you read this game, he is uncomfortable by comparison.

[Loose Canon]

Some good posts by PMC.
They don't immediately strike me as wrong -and I'd call it out if they did.

Need to find time to check them out and see what I think with a fresh head.
I'm not going to do that today, and quite possibly not till the weekend.

Think Max and Pepe should do similarly.

Call out now if they immediately see flaws - otherwise analyse and consider carefully.

[Loose Canon]

Actually I'm gonna post some discussions between Max and myself from earlier in this game day;

Mafia
Sent: Sat Sep 14, 2024 9:27 am
From: Maxleod
To: Loose Canon

Thoughts?

I'd go for pmc.

re: Mafia
Sent: Sat Sep 14, 2024 10:04 am
From: Loose Canon
To: Maxleod

In my book it's definitely definitely Pepe.

But we can pretend suspicions of PMC for now.

I have something set up with Charle (and was with DDS) - a will i wrote D3
Gave pmc my final last remaining FOS.

Re: Mafia
Sent: Sun Sep 15, 2024 1:31 am
From: Maxleod
To: Loose Canon

I'll post something later today. I'm almost certain pmc is scum, you'll see.


And by the time Max posted the above I was actually suspecting PMC more than Pepe believe it or not.
And that firmed up afterwards.

Now I need as I said to take the time to carefully consider the latest posts by PMC - which instinctively I feel are good ones

[Maxleod]

Boring. Loose, all I see is pmc desperately trying to save his scummy ass. Just hammer him. If we lose I take full responsability. (ofc if we win all credit goes to me)

[PepeAtila]

show

What's more likely:

1. This is a genuine response, from all this game this is what makes Pepe think its me. Having a bad idea which I didn't even push.

2. He was looking for any excuse to explain his change of vote so he can win the game by voting me.

This response is because I think that when you wrote that you thought that perhaps it is easier for you to convince one person than two.

[pmchugh]

Boring. Loose, all I see is pmc desperately trying to save his scummy ass. Just hammer him. If we lose I take full responsability. (ofc if we win all credit goes to me)

Trying to win the game for town you will actually find. You literally have no argument. You have no explanation that covers why I would throw EW under the bus. You think you are being smart by ignoring everything I say but all its allowing you to do is fit the situation to your priors.

Just look at Pepe today alone, he voted for you, after fighting me all day yesterday, then switches back to you in a heart beat.

It's better to be humble now, and consider all the possibilities than to be humble after and take responsibility for the loss.