Battle of the Bulge - CLOSED

[shieldgenerator7]

As for Yoshi saying "vig kill NG", that's something of a WIFOM situation as to whether mafia or town would say that. M for Mafia run by Doom and Sully had shield say something to the effect of "oh, I'm playing something I've never played before" right before night and as mafia, that was enough for us to kill him because I knew he had played VT before. That's usually a WIFOM ploy which I honestly don't see as being much different from what Doom did.

lshicastr I remember that (BTW S7C that's a lower case "L" not an uppercase "i"). It totally worked too.
But I don't get how that has anything to do with what Doomyoshi did. Doom tried to direct a power role while I was trying to trick mafia into hitting me.

-SG7 ( )

[safariguy5]

As for Yoshi saying "vig kill NG", that's something of a WIFOM situation as to whether mafia or town would say that. M for Mafia run by Doom and Sully had shield say something to the effect of "oh, I'm playing something I've never played before" right before night and as mafia, that was enough for us to kill him because I knew he had played VT before. That's usually a WIFOM ploy which I honestly don't see as being much different from what Doom did.

lshicastr I remember that (BTW S7C that's a lower case "L" not an uppercase "i"). It totally worked too.
But I don't get how that has anything to do with what Doomyoshi did. Doom tried to direct a power role while I was trying to trick mafia into hitting me.

-SG7 ( )

First of all, I thought your role was more useful than you were willing to give it credit for. And if you were really successful, you would have attracted a doc save and negated the night kill.

Second of all, I'm saying that deadline posts tend to be WIFOMy anyways, so I see that attempted direction by Doom more as a possible test to see if new guy was mafia and try and draw a mafia NK on doom on the off chance that the vig did kill new guy and new guy turned out to be mafia. Should that have happened, Doom would have gained tons of town cred, and mafia would have been forced to NK him soon anyways for fear of him being around at LYLO and lowering their chances of winning.

[Ragian]

Alright .. I have to know. I figured LAL was "lie and live", but now I'm not so sure. Help, please

[pmchugh]

Understood. But then you are assuming I protected NG to gain town cred, which proves me as mafia. And out of all possibilities that may have made me protect NG, you assume it was the town cred one because you think I'm mafia. Which means you are using a premise ("Rodion is mafia") to draw the same conclusion ("Rodion is mafia"). Begging the question.

No I didn't presume anything and I still don't. I made a judgement call on your posts. The "all of the possibilities" part of your post is silly, I am sure there are many other reasons which you could reel of in a sarcastic and unhelpful manner, probably an infinite amount of possibilities, but one of them has to be true and I came to the conclusion that it was this one. If there is an actual reason feel free to say it, or feel free to say why my conclusion is a bogus one but to simply point out that there could be other reasons is surely a logical fallacy of its own.

It is still unacceptable to repeatedly lie to the town in that manner, unless there are no better alternatives.

I don't know how other players feel about the whole LAL situation, but it is simplistic to assume there are better alternatives from a "NG hypothetical liar" perspective.

He could:
a) keep lying, insist he merely forgot and never have the opposite proven otherwise
b) come clean, explain why he lied in the first place (to dissuade the vig from shooting him) and hope most of the town has common sense not to lynch him for that.

A only depends on him, while B is something he cannot control.

There were many better alternatives from the start, he should not have lied in the beginning unless he was willing to come clean about it. Instead he has been pro-active in his defence of telling the truth.

Why would mafia care this much about one character? At worst it smells of a lyncher esc role, unless ng is an uber power but given this is ghostlys first game I doubt it.

I can only speculate.

1 - Yoshi thought he could get a freebie NK while managing to stay alive. He could stay alive by:
a) hoping a cop finds someone else guilty, correctly or not
b) WIFOMing the situation, much like you are doing now ("if I were mafia, would I care so much about NG? If you can't answer yes, it means I'm town")
c) turning the tide on a patsy that BWed him the following day ("ok, guys, I know I said you could kill me today if NG flipped town, but see how Player X took this 'easy lynch bait' without actually bothering to comment about anything else? He must be scum")
d) hoping NG is an anti-town character (SK, for instance)
e) I could probably reach letter "z" if I wanted to present crazy busdriver/godfather/lightning rod alternatives, but I hope 4, plus the knowledge that there are more out there, are enough.

2 - Just like Jak claimed town gets a special prize if Hitler dies before a certain deadline, mafia could want a certain townie dead before a certain deadline. Maybe they've found out that townie is NG.

3 - Maybe Dazza visited NG. Mafia suspects NG is a PGO. Yoshi planned to direct the vig there, perhaps also the doctor (in case Jak felt he wanted to block the vig) and knows who else more?

As you can see, I can speculate loads of things. I don't know exactly what went through Yoshi's mind when he called for the vig (again, something we'll only be able to comprehend in the post-game discussion), but it's scummy enough to have my vote once you consider the pre-existing FOS for voting Jak.

Yes you can speculate, and again there are infinite possibilities but how many of them are likely? We have to make decisions in mafia games and if you wanna throw 9 million alternatives into every choice you have to make then you will never be able to make one. Occam's razor would dictate that doom was not mafia.

I obviously did not want to hammer.
I used that convenient meta to explain why I was not going to hammer without having to give mafia the advantage of seeing me softclaim.

Yes, it is an admission. I fail to see how admitting that is suspicious, though.

It is an admission that you used a fake reason, so how do we know this one is true? LAL

I soft claimed nothing, I would not soft claim as I think it is a poor strategy in most situations.

Doesn't matter how much you deny it, you did. By volunteering to hammer you've stated stuff. Anyone with half a brain knows you are not the cop. You wouldn't be a role whose death would cause serious losses to the town either, like a lover or a beloved princess. Hopefully, you'd keep quiet as another "minor" power role while waiting for vanillas to volunteer. Regardless, I can guarantee you are not a major power role.

Unless, of course, you knew your vote had been stolen, which meant you only offered to hammer because you knew that simply would not happen.

Oh but there are many other possibilities Rodion:

1) I am the cop and I had a guilty result on chap
2) I am the cop but I never intended to hammer, I just said so to throw off the mafia
3) I am a major power role and I am also bulletproof
4) I was confident chap was not the bomb
5) I am willing to put my life on the line for cases which I believe in
6) *Insert cocky statement about how I could go on forever*



I'm going to unvote, not because I think you are completely innocent but because I think we could do this all day and I would like to actually get somewhere today.

@Rage- LAL = Lynch All Liars

[Ragian]

Cheers, Rod

[Some7hingCLEVER]

where is chuck he hasnt said anything since the 25th of may

[Rodion]

No I didn't presume anything and I still don't. I made a judgement call on your posts. The "all of the possibilities" part of your post is silly, I am sure there are many other reasons which you could reel of in a sarcastic and unhelpful manner, probably an infinite amount of possibilities, but one of them has to be true and I came to the conclusion that it was this one. If there is an actual reason feel free to say it, or feel free to say why my conclusion is a bogus one but to simply point out that there could be other reasons is surely a logical fallacy of its own.

Not sure why you're asking me to repeat what I've already said. When measuring Yoshi's actions, I came to the conclusion he was ill-intentioned and was trying to frame (used loosely) NG.

This is the truth. The actual reason you are looking for.

I cannot justify why your conclusion is a bogus one because it IS one of many possibilities. Your conclusion COULD be the correct one. It just happens that Ghostly sent me a town role PM and your conclusion is wrong.

There were many better alternatives from the start, he should not have lied in the beginning unless he was willing to come clean about it. Instead he has been pro-active in his defence of telling the truth.

At this point I think you should open a mafia discussions thread. We do not seem to be talking about the same thing.

You are saying "he should have handled the situation differently from his first post".*
I'm saying "without declaring his first post was the best one available, he did take a course of action that solved the short-term problem (being vig killed over peanuts). After that, since your lie cannot be caught, the correct path is to keep lying so as to avoid a scenario in which most players subscribe to a LAL policy."*

* all of that is hypothetical and getting extremely abstract, we do not have confirmation that he did or did not lie

Yes you can speculate, and again there are infinite possibilities but how many of them are likely? We have to make decisions in mafia games and if you wanna throw 9 million alternatives into every choice you have to make then you will never be able to make one. Occam's razor would dictate that doom was not mafia.

None of them are likely. They all have below 50% odds of being correct. You should, however, add all of them before you actually decide whether something is likely or unlikely.

Occam's razor can WIFOMed. Just have mafia make irrational/complex moves and see how Occam's razor will be used to incorrectly clear them.

Yes, it is an admission. I fail to see how admitting that is suspicious, though.[/quote]

It is an admission that you used a fake reason, so how do we know this one is true? LAL

How come? It was always the same reason, not hammering without having to softclaim.

The link shows how willing I am not to die even when I am vanilla. In this game, I range from vanilla to power role, meaning that, worst case scenario, I'm as strong as I was in that other game where I thoroughly refused to die. Ergo, I'm not willing to risk a death on a claimed bomb unless I'm 100% sure it is a fake.

Anecdotally, Chap of all people knew I was not going to hammer because he was heavily involved in what happened in the other game. He even admitted he only nominated me "in jest".

Oh but there are many other possibilities Rodion:

1) I am the cop and I had a guilty result on chap
2) I am the cop but I never intended to hammer, I just said so to throw off the mafia
3) I am a major power role and I am also bulletproof
4) I was confident chap was not the bomb
5) I am willing to put my life on the line for cases which I believe in
6) *Insert cocky statement about how I could go on forever*

I see what you did there!

I suppose it could be WIFOMed several ways. "2", for instance, would have been a huge risk if town had decided to make you follow through. I would expect you not to play so recklessly as a cop, but let's just say perhaps you've managed to outwit me (and many others, I assume). We'll know for sure once the game ends (or if you flip before that).

I'm going to unvote, not because I think you are completely innocent but because I think we could do this all day and I would like to actually get somewhere today.

@Rage- LAL = Lynch All Liars

I like reading this and going back to your "5" that is right in the above quote. It pleases me. Perhaps the cocky statement should have been "5", but I digress.

You want to go somewhere. So far I see 3 cases: NG, Yoshi and Rodion. You've just declared case #3 is not going to lead you anywhere. You seem to believe both cases #1 and #2 are wrong. What now?

@Ragian - to elaborate, it's a mafia game policy that says you must lynch players that have been caught in lies (because, theoretically, a lie is the ultimate scumtell, since town is interested in the truth while mafia is interested in misleading). Yoshi treats it as a rule with no exceptions. If I understood correctly, PMC and I admit exceptions, but we disagree on how far those exceptions can go.

[Rodion]

where is chuck he hasnt said anything since the 25th of may

Chuck is dead. Ask Ghostly to update the OP and the vote count!

[Some7hingCLEVER]

where is chuck he hasnt said anything since the 25th of may

Chuck is dead. Ask Ghostly to update the OP and the vote count!

i know just trying to get ghostly to do something but he is in new orleans and on his way home. he will do it when he gets home im sure...or ill make him. either way.

[Ragian]

Cheers omc and rod. I understood the brief one though, but you'll never know

[pmchugh]

You want to go somewhere. So far I see 3 cases: NG, Yoshi and Rodion. You've just declared case #3 is not going to lead you anywhere. You seem to believe both cases #1 and #2 are wrong. What now?

Sigh, I don't know. I am in too many games at the moment. Ragian and clever seem to have been spectating our duels without contributing much so I'd like to hear some opinions from them on our chat. Leehar needs to come in and actually post to, I would like to hear his opinions on the doom/ng thingy.

Do you still want to lynch doom?

[new guy1]

Okay guys, so I just read the last three pages that I had to go through to get caught up. Um, I remember saying I THOUGHT I was drunk that night but then I had remembered the night, remembered clever was there, reminded him of the night, and so therefore had him post that we were intoxicated. I guess its not really that bad and so if I MUST clear my name I would post exactly how we were intoxicated but it is not a prefered course of action. If that is what you guys are talking about me having lied about then I will be honest and just say our form of intoxication. Either way, as far as pmc/rodion's debate, another thing could be that they are just wifoming it up haha (not listing that as an option cause I find it pretty unlikely). Either way, if I missed something addressed to me, tell me and I will answer it in the morning but after reading 3 pages of long posts, I dont have the energy to read back through to find them.

[Rodion]

You want to go somewhere. So far I see 3 cases: NG, Yoshi and Rodion. You've just declared case #3 is not going to lead you anywhere. You seem to believe both cases #1 and #2 are wrong. What now?

Sigh, I don't know. I am in too many games at the moment. Ragian and clever seem to have been spectating our duels without contributing much so I'd like to hear some opinions from them on our chat. Leehar needs to come in and actually post to, I would like to hear his opinions on the doom/ng thingy.

Do you still want to lynch doom?

At the moment, Yoshi is my best bet as far as who's scum. It's worth noting that D3 has just started (we don't even know who lost his vote, if anyone) and many players are yet to comment on the subjects. I can find someone more scummy than Yoshi depending on how things go, so it's a little hasty to say I want to lynch him. But, yeah, if I had to make a lynch call right now, it would be Yoshi.

and so if I MUST clear my name I would post exactly how we were intoxicated but it is not a prefered course of action.

Chill, NG. The way you got intoxicated is totally irrelevant as far as whether you are town or mafia in this game. Nobody wants to invade your privacy that much.

[Rodion]

Nobody wants to invade your privacy that much.

Or so I assume.

[new guy1]

Well I just wanted to make sure if that is the LAL problem that I could address it.

[pmchugh]

Nobody wants to invade your privacy that much.

Or so I assume.

Haha yeah it is totally irrelevant to the game.

[new guy1]

Okay, so what are you guys talking about that is putting me into the category of LAL? Lol

[Ragian]

Okay, so what are you guys talking about that is putting me into the category of LAL? Lol

That bit cracked me up

To be honest, I'm on NG's case because I think it's the best case at the moment. I was on his case on D2 because some of his wordings were weird and contradictory. I even got complimented by pmc for a decent find. NG managed to talk himself out of it, but I think I unvoted because somewhere along the road I'd misunderstood NG. The problem was, however, that I think I unvoted for something that wasn't the crux of the matter. Hence, when D3 started, he was my no.1 suspect.

Doom directing the vig near closing time didn't really bother me. Surely, a vig is not going to act upon it just because one guy wanted it done. Another thing is the vote business that I did not realise until NG brought it up, and, as Doom is saying, it's weird that he would go straight to that conclusion. I wouldn't and I didn't

To me that's the most scummy business.

Really, the discussion between Rod and pmc got out of hand to me. You kept going forwards and backwards on what seemed to be semantics and whatnot. Also, for a newbie like me, it was difficult to follow.

It seems that the essence of this post is that I feel NG is the most scummy at the moment and that I'm too thick to really take part of the discussion that Rod and pmc had.

[new guy1]

We covered the post about a possible vote stealer. I have been in several games recently with one and so I guess my mind was on that. Either way, it happened and I have explained what I was thinking for me to come up with the conclusion. Im too tired to reargue the point, so Ill leave it at that.

[Ragian]

I don't want you to re-argue, mate. I just don't think I believe you (even though I'm not calling you a liar in real life ).

[pmchugh]

Okay, so what are you guys talking about that is putting me into the category of LAL? Lol

Neither of us wanted to lynch you, we just disagreed on why. The potential lie was that you never intended to post a defense today and that yesterday you just said it to avoid being vigged. Rodion apparently thinks this would be an acceptable town lie where as I don't, however I don't think you are lying so it doesn't really matter. The reason I brought it up is that I think Rodion was just talking out his arse in an attempt to appear townie and incriminate doom.

Really, the discussion between Rod and pmc got out of hand to me. You kept going forwards and backwards on what seemed to be semantics and whatnot. Also, for a newbie like me, it was difficult to follow.

Sorry about that rage, it tends to happen when one experienced player goes after another. I am actually slightly suspicious that Rodion was making his posts deliberately verbose to make them hard to understand, like when I missed a single point in one of my posts he brought it back up. However I don't see this as scummy, it is just how you avoid getting lynched. Look at what sg7 rather suspiciously wrote about rodion, he suggested we just straight up get him to claim because we can never best him in an argument.

[Ragian]

But surely you don't go after anyone just because they're experienced? I thought that was a joke ...

[safariguy5]

But surely you don't go after anyone just because they're experienced? I thought that was a joke ...

That goes both ways. A good experienced player tends to come up with better town cases and generally can spot scumslips easier.

On the other hand, an experienced scum player can defend themselves well and it's more difficult to get the votes needed to lynch them. How long did it take for us to lynch vamp Rodion in Unknown Mafia?

As for the vote stealer thing, I know it's a bit of mod meta, but I'm a bit confused as to why we didn't have a vote stolen on Day 2. Also, pmc says he didn't receive any PM saying he had lost the vote.

I'm in favor of pursuing an inactive case at this point. Leehar comes to mind, we need to get some of this dead weight out now before we get to LYLO and need every vote we can get.

[pmchugh]

But surely you don't go after anyone just because they're experienced? I thought that was a joke ...

I never went after him purely because he was experienced, I went after him because I think he is suspicious. Him being experienced is just a pain in the arse.

[Ragian]

But surely you don't go after anyone just because they're experienced? I thought that was a joke ...

I never went after him purely because he was experienced, I went after him because I think he is suspicious. Him being experienced is just a pain in the arse.

I know, mate. I was referring to SG7 ...