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Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - Endgame

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby DRoZ on Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:00 pm

Aage, we are just arguing semantics, anything brought up in attack or defense of a person could be used to build a case. The issue is if that case has any merit. You obviously see Jak's case as weak, and I agree with you, but to say someone should not try to build a "case" is not an optimal goal for the town. Even if someone has a vendetta against a player, it is best for it to be seen out in the open so that everyone can debate its validity, and should someone be seen as overreaching, then it just points the light on the one leading the charge. All in all, I think we are on the same side of this issue, I suppose it is just the phrasing that is causing the conflict.

Chap, I agree the OMGUS seemed like a noob move, and is exactly how I took it as well. It is also what led me to believe he may be scum, not because of the vote itself but what it said about the player (he is unexperienced). So my thought process is that as an unexperienced player, he saw the votes mounting on CM5 and got worried, not realizing how little pressure was actually on CM5. He made the post asking what CM5 did, without either looking back to the penis vote and figuring it out or waiting for things to become a bit more clear. The rushed reaction to the CM5 pressure is what looked like a possible alliance between them. A more experienced player would not have worried any about such early pressure in the joke stage. There is always information out there, even during the joke stage, it would be wise to dissect as much of what is available as possible. Day one cases are going to be weak, it is just the nature of the game.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby soundman on Tue Sep 11, 2012 7:59 pm

Unvote. I think Hensow is a pretty inexperienced player. However, he is on my Day 1 radar for completely missing the CM5 vote reason which was only a couple of posts before his. I'm lost as to who to pursue (usual Day 1) but will probably push Hensow if nothing else comes up and we start getting close to the deadline. Would like to see Illiad and Jak back in here.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby jak111 on Tue Sep 11, 2012 8:00 pm

Well, I'm alive and still here :P

Unvote, Vote Aage

While yes, my case against Greg is weak at best (but lets face it, it wasn't too shabby for the first case of the day XD) your constant push of your pov on don't bring forth cases unless they're damning cases is total bs and like others have said unproductive. If anything it takes away production of better cases if the small ones never see the light. For who decides which case it worthy before it's posted?

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby F1fth on Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:40 pm

FOS Jak for a blatant OMGUS vote. While I agree with you and DRoZ (mostly DRoZ) that Aage discouraging early accusations is counter-productive and counter-fun, I have to say I find it more suspicious that you vote for him based on this. Of course scum wants to inhibit the town, but more often I find that town are overly cautious about lynches on the first few days which can explain Aage's behavior. Plus, scum benefits from random bandwagons so long as it's not one of their scummates being targeted so I don't see why discouraging bandwagons is necessarily a scumtell. But since OMGUS is frequent enough in early days as well among townies, I'll leave it at a FOS.

That said, Shaggy has been lying low (i.e. not posted once) since I mentioned his contradictory calling out of jgordon. I presume he's trying to skirt past the first day without drawing attention to himself which, after his aggressive "semi-serious" vote, is suspicious enough in my eyes to warrant this:
Vote ShaggyDan
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby aage on Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:22 am

I don't recall ever discouraging discussion. I think at least some of you missed my point. I simply don't see the value of building a case against someone on the third page of the thread. Yes, you could say that I believe the case is not "worthy" to be made such a big deal of. Your actual suspicions could have been formulated in two sentences, yet you elect to put in five quotes and call it a case. That is why I find it unworthy of a case, and that is why I'm responding to it. I hope that was clear.

You're probably right when you say we are discussing semantics, though, DRoZ. In my experience, building cases is not what you do when you just want to pressure someone for a bit. In my experience, cases are made to get players lynched. That is why people normally only have one at a time. Though, everyone seemed to think it but I was first to call out on it, and now I'm the a-hole? Got it. ;)
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby chapcrap on Wed Sep 12, 2012 7:38 am

aage wrote:I simply don't see the value of building a case against someone on the third page of the thread.

There is probably not much substance to the case itself, but there is value.
  • It starts getting people to stop joke voting.
  • It gives us the beginning of getting someone to claim if they can't come up with some kind of defense.
  • It tricks people into voting for stupid reasons, helping to reveal scum.
  • It starts to pull other scum tells out of people.
But, as for the case itself... Usually it's just hogwash.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby pancakemix on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:00 am

Joke votes --> crappy case (usually from jak) --> semantics --> wall of text

Seems about normal to me. Step 4 should be coming around any minute now.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby strike wolf on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:14 am

The biggest downside of trying to make a case too early usually falls on the person who makes the case. It's kind of the hidden opinion that the person who made it is trying to rush the town or being aggressive in an early attempt to make themselves appear townish. There's not really much logic behind either usually it's someone who really is just being a bit rash, thinks that maybe they see something early on (this happened with me in the Golden Pantheon Japanese game) or just someone anxious to get the day out of the joke stage. In this case, I am inclined to believe the third option and at this point I do not believe Jak to be scum. Based on everything making my general opinion on what's being said, generally making cases is harmless until it forces a player to reveal information about their role or action.

I think F1fth made a fairly well-reasoned post above mine and I will indeed FOS shaggy based on his disappearance and subsequent accusations. However I will leave it at an FOS as it does not appear that Shaggy has been overly active over the last few days in the forums in general.

As far as Hensow, the OMGus has been cleared up (as far as I'm concerned). He took Vio's post as a joke vote and appears to have been joke voting back with the OMGus. I would still however like to hear what had him confused over the Crazymilkshake vote as he has not addressed anything in the case on him beyond the OMGus vote. I also tend to be biased against people who bring out the newbie card out of thin air.

Hensow wrote:It was a throw away comment I meant there is no long defence it was a stupid vote.
this is about my 4th game of mafia


Since I haven't already...Unvote to get rid of my joke vote.

Fastposted by Pancake. Don't think I have anything to say about his post though.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:30 am

:lol: Nice timing, eh, PCM?

Oh, dearie...

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:34 am

As for ShaggyDan, I'm not too keen on voting him, myself. I prefer to vote off loose ends, even if they're town, simply based on the fact that whether an active player is scum or not, they should stick around at least until Day 2, just cuz it makes for a better game. I guess that's my philosophy on Day 1 voting. I'm always happy to vote off an inactive (or on occasion, an obnoxious scumzor).

But, of course, I'm not against voting an active player off 100% of the time... I do have a win condition after all.

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby jgordon1111 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 8:53 am

Victor Sullivan wrote:As for ShaggyDan, I'm not too keen on voting him, myself. I prefer to vote off loose ends, even if they're town, simply based on the fact that whether an active player is scum or not, they should stick around at least until Day 2, just cuz it makes for a better game. I guess that's my philosophy on Day 1 voting. I'm always happy to vote off an inactive (or on occasion, an obnoxious scumzor).

But, of course, I'm not against voting an active player off 100% of the time... I do have a win condition after all.

-Sully



LOL now thats subtle. And maybe a little early. :-s
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby edocsil on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:28 am

Alright, deadline is the 17th, and here is your first official VC. Using a new program to tally votes, (SG's thing) and I THINK I have everything tallied right, but it is different from what I am used to. My original method with excel just wasn't going to cut it for a larger game like this. Long story short, if something is wrong, tell me and I apologize in advance.

Vote Count:

Jonty (1) - Djfireside
gregwolf (1) - victor
jgordon (1) - Shaggy
victor (1) - aage
hensow (3) - safari , DRoZ , violet
Illiad (1) - crazymilkshake
chapcrap (1) - Jonty
Shaggy (1) - F1fth
Vodean (1) - /
crazymilkshake (2) - lsu tiger josh , nagerous
aage (1) - Jak

With 25 alive it takes 13 to lynch
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby jonty125 on Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:55 am

Well, I thought my vote was on jak. Lets fix that unvote vote jak
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby VioIet on Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:42 am

jgordon1111 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:As for ShaggyDan, I'm not too keen on voting him, myself. I prefer to vote off loose ends, even if they're town, simply based on the fact that whether an active player is scum or not, they should stick around at least until Day 2, just cuz it makes for a better game. I guess that's my philosophy on Day 1 voting. I'm always happy to vote off an inactive (or on occasion, an obnoxious scumzor).

But, of course, I'm not against voting an active player off 100% of the time... I do have a win condition after all.

-Sully



LOL now thats subtle. And maybe a little early. :-s



Why do I feel like I am missing something here? Maybe Victor can elaborate a bit on this win condition. It almost must seem as though he needs ShaggyDan to stay alive.

And Unvote. I feel like my joke vote against Henslow, his response to my vote, people questioning him and so forth all went a bit too far. I have no serious vote as of yet.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby ShaggyDan on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:15 am

Internet is playing up. Can post tomorrow.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby Mr. Squirrel on Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:53 am

VioIet wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:As for ShaggyDan, I'm not too keen on voting him, myself. I prefer to vote off loose ends, even if they're town, simply based on the fact that whether an active player is scum or not, they should stick around at least until Day 2, just cuz it makes for a better game. I guess that's my philosophy on Day 1 voting. I'm always happy to vote off an inactive (or on occasion, an obnoxious scumzor).

But, of course, I'm not against voting an active player off 100% of the time... I do have a win condition after all.

-Sully



LOL now thats subtle. And maybe a little early. :-s



Why do I feel like I am missing something here? Maybe Victor can elaborate a bit on this win condition. It almost must seem as though he needs ShaggyDan to stay alive.

I don't think that is what he was implying by that comment. I greatly disagree with his assessment, but its not one I'm going to argue against. In my opinion its a little scummy, but not enough that I could really build a case around it.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby jonty125 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:33 am

VioIet wrote:
jgordon1111 wrote:
Victor Sullivan wrote:As for ShaggyDan, I'm not too keen on voting him, myself. I prefer to vote off loose ends, even if they're town, simply based on the fact that whether an active player is scum or not, they should stick around at least until Day 2, just cuz it makes for a better game. I guess that's my philosophy on Day 1 voting. I'm always happy to vote off an inactive (or on occasion, an obnoxious scumzor).

But, of course, I'm not against voting an active player off 100% of the time... I do have a win condition after all.

-Sully



LOL now thats subtle. And maybe a little early. :-s



Why do I feel like I am missing something here? Maybe Victor can elaborate a bit on this win condition. It almost must seem as though he needs ShaggyDan to stay alive.


I really can't see that from the post; but then again I can't see much from it.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby aage on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:03 pm

VioIet wrote:Why do I feel like I am missing something here? Maybe Victor can elaborate a bit on this win condition. It almost must seem as though he needs ShaggyDan to stay alive.

To me it seems Victor is being quite vague by mentioning his win condition, but I assume it's a jest towards scum being active. ShaggyDan was posting fairly regularly until his internet died. I read it as "he might have to die, but not yet". As to why he would post it in this wording, I have no idea.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby strike wolf on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:14 pm

I don't think Victor meant anything by mentioning the win condition. seems he was just talking about his general win condition. saying that he can't just always vote for inactive over whole thinks should be based on his role in the game whether town or evil because it cab prevent him from winning. he cent win a game as town by always voting off inactive townies over active scum not can he win as evil by voting his inactive evil buddies over active townies (who could later cause problems for evil).
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby chapcrap on Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:54 pm

When is Victor not acting scummy? He just can't help himself.
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby Victor Sullivan on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:26 pm

I'd rather not clarify my statements. I am enjoying this discussion too much.

:mrgreen:

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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby / on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:39 pm

I will vote Crazymilkshake
As I said, I am willing to focus pressure in order to get something done before night.
But besides that, I find it interesting that on page 11, two posts after I note that I may bandwagon a person with the most votes, crazy; who had the most votes; suddenly starts an inactivity case. (which IMO, for a day one is largely random, and likely counterproductive if deliberate submarining can't be proven, as it often ends in a replacement, or is easily dismissed with a quick "sorry, I'll be more active") Seems as though he mayhaps have something to hide?
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby / on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:39 pm

/ wrote:I will [color=#0040FF]vote Crazymilkshake[/color]
As I said, I am willing to focus pressure in order to get something done before night.
But besides that, I find it interesting that on page 11, two posts after I note that I may bandwagon a person with the most votes, crazy; who had the most votes; suddenly starts an inactivity case. (which IMO, for a day one is largely random, and likely counterproductive if deliberate submarining can't be proven, as it often ends in a replacement, or is easily dismissed with a quick "sorry, I'll be more active") Seems as though he mayhaps have something to hide?

sorry, bold
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby / on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:40 pm

Well ****
UNVOTE VOTE CRAZY
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Re: Golden Pantheon - Angels and Demons - D1

Postby crazymilkshake5 on Thu Sep 13, 2012 5:55 pm

/ wrote:Well ****
UNVOTE VOTE CRAZY

I would like to point out that i was not the only one with 3 votes, hensow had 3 votes at the time of me posting that also.
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