[SPECIAL] Surprise Mafia - Over - Mafia Wins - MVP Aladdin

[PLAYER57832]

note that I did NOT vote falko!

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

note that I did NOT vote falko!

You didnt defend him either, so dont get to claim superiority afterwards.

[degaston]

Hmm that didn't go well I thought worst case he would be 3rd party.. Sorry falko but u did come across a little scummy

Yes... who could have possibly predicted that he would be town?

Oh, that's right - I did:

I think that if I had been wrong about Ragian, some scum would have helped push that case. The fact that this bandwagon formed so easily on Falko, without much of a case, tells me that he's probably town. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Is anyone going to start listening to me now (that it's probably too late)? I doubt it.

Mets - i could also go Falko, that vote against PTLowe and VT claim. Low risk, high reward.

I'd really like to know what you thought the reward was supposed to be. Though from a scummy point of view, I suppose Falko was a low risk, high reward lynch.

Vote Ragian

My personal feeling is the deadline is too close for this.

Yes, it would have been difficult since scum would discourage it, as opposed to a Falko lynch. Of course, now it's going to be even more difficult to get a scum lynch.

Vote Ragian

Ragian orso sed he sent sumtink to Benga, and Benga has been logged in today, but has not made an appeerence in teh game. Maybe Ragian's gift has sumtink to do wit dat but den, it wood have been stoopid for Ragian to announse teh gift if he ment harm to Benga. Maybe, tho, teh gift malfunkshunned, as dey orl seem to do, and Benga got acidently silensed or sumthing?

No dout teh usual suspecks will jump on me fer spekulating...

Of teh too inventers, I'm moor conserned about LSU TJ atm, fer reesons awreddy stated. Still, Deg is rite - we shood look at Ragian ferther. I don't see him as a viable D3 linch tho.

FPed WCG. Agree. We don't have time fer this now.

Scum buddies, much? I'm not really buying the cop enabler role anymore. It provides no verifiable proof, and it's existence would be very harmful to town if it were true, making it possible to neutralize at least 3 important town roles.

I investigated Rag during night and he cam back town.

As you admitted, this could have been manipulated.

You're wasting your vote. Do you think all the players voting Falko are scum?

Not all, but probably several (including you). After losing so many townies already, town couldn't afford to take the easy route. Once the flood of votes started for Falko, the townies should have seen that they were being manipulated and unvoted. If you were also town, then scum should have preferred to lynch you, in case you came up with a useful invention.

So that's what I can come up with for now. The few remaining townies may as well follow me, because you're not doing very well by following scum. Right now, I'd go with Ragian, Wing and Aladdin as my top 3 scum picks.

[PLAYER57832]

note that I did NOT vote falko!

You didnt defend him either, so dont get to claim superiority afterwards.

Baloney. You guys were bandwagoning.

[StorrZerg]

Aladdin, white rose, deg, benga, rish, falko are all anti town.

Tis a shame, Falko was my really obvious doc "save" target! Gonna have to carefully consider now!

Yeeeeeeah, about dat. Wit dat kind of judgement, I'm def not hapy haven you runnen around at nite killen peepul, even if you are Town.

Are you going to help lynch wing tomorrow?

[Metsfanmax]

Oh, that's right - I did:

I think that if I had been wrong about Ragian, some scum would have helped push that case. The fact that this bandwagon formed so easily on Falko, without much of a case, tells me that he's probably town. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Is anyone going to start listening to me now (that it's probably too late)? I doubt it.

Or you're scum and playing off the other scum involved to make yourself look townie. It didn't cost much to make that statement at the time, Falko was L-2 by then and it was clear he was going to be lynched. So if you're scum and know he's town and know he's going to get mislynched, why not gain some town cred by "predicting" he's town?

Mets - i could also go Falko, that vote against PTLowe and VT claim. Low risk, high reward.

I'd really like to know what you thought the reward was supposed to be. Though from a scummy point of view, I suppose Falko was a low risk, high reward lynch.

I don't agree. Why is a VT a "high reward" lynch? It's only a moderate reward, i.e. not getting scum lynched. High reward lynches from their point of view are town power roles. So if (say) Wing is scum and scum thought there was a risk of him being lynched, I could see why switching to Falko would be a good idea. But if they weren't worried about that, then Falko is a pretty lame thing for them to have achieved today. And since the main people at risk for lynch were Falko and DJPatrick, I don't think they were too worried about that.

[CatchersMitt14]

The bodies were piling up. Two more were slain by the invisible hand during the day. The people decided someone had to pay for the ongoing confusion and bloodshed, so they turned their attention towards Falkomagno. They strung him up and finally saw what he truly was.

show

It is now N3.

Deadline in 3 days unless Streaker or dakky say otherwise.

Using Epi's post to get the correct subject line back on the posts (it is N3 now).

Aladdin. If you never let me shoot, how will you ever know my alignment?

My role is negative utility which means I am harmful to my own faction, in this case town. (Not a ghreat in terms of win conditions, thats different)

Lol Storr, you realise that solo mafia wing once spent an entire game not using kill power....

You state here that your role is harmful to town, so why shouldn't we lynch you tomorrow?

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

You state here that your role is harmful to town, so why shouldn't we lynch you tomorrow?

I am town, and I can choose not to use my power. My role is not a reason to kill me.

[degaston]

Oh, that's right - I did:

I think that if I had been wrong about Ragian, some scum would have helped push that case. The fact that this bandwagon formed so easily on Falko, without much of a case, tells me that he's probably town. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Is anyone going to start listening to me now (that it's probably too late)? I doubt it.

Or you're scum and playing off the other scum involved to make yourself look townie. It didn't cost much to make that statement at the time, Falko was L-2 by then and it was clear he was going to be lynched. So if you're scum and know he's town and know he's going to get mislynched, why not gain some town cred by "predicting" he's town?

Was I under some kind of pressure where I needed more town cred? I don't think there's been a vote against me the entire game. I could have easily slipped under the radar just by joining in on the lynch. No one was looking at Ragian either. If I was scum, then I was taking a big, unnecessary risk with that statement.

When I first accused Ragian, I was not entirely sure, but now I am pretty sure that if both he and Falko were town, then at least 1 scum would have given me a little support to help set Ragian up as a future lynch, and to then blame me for starting a bad lynch. There's been nothing but mild discouragement so that no one can be accused of defending scum if/when he is lynched.

And Falko did not have to be lynched. People were admitting that there was not much of a case against him, and they were just bandwagoning, but nobody was willing to really think about what I was saying, or that, with the number of townies left, lynching Falko was too easy for him to be scum.

Mets - i could also go Falko, that vote against PTLowe and VT claim. Low risk, high reward.

I'd really like to know what you thought the reward was supposed to be. Though from a scummy point of view, I suppose Falko was a low risk, high reward lynch.

I don't agree. Why is a VT a "high reward" lynch? It's only a moderate reward, i.e. not getting scum lynched. High reward lynches from their point of view are town power roles. So if (say) Wing is scum and scum thought there was a risk of him being lynched, I could see why switching to Falko would be a good idea. But if they weren't worried about that, then Falko is a pretty lame thing for them to have achieved today. And since the main people at risk for lynch were Falko and DJPatrick, I don't think they were too worried about that.

With so many town dead, any town lynch is pretty high reward for scum at this point, but Falko was especially nice for them because it did not reveal any new information. It does not prove anyone is town or scum, and no one had to push very hard for it, so there is no one person to blame. And who knows, maybe DJ is scum too, so perhaps Falko was the only reasonable choice they had.

Besides, it was Wing who first said that Falko was a high reward lynch. Assuming that he meant for town, that statement doesn't make much sense. Whether he flipped town or scum, there was nothing to be learned by lynching Falko.

[StorrZerg]

You state here that your role is harmful to town, so why shouldn't we lynch you tomorrow?

I am town, and I can choose not to use my power. My role is not a reason to kill me.

yes.

how ever your choice on how you tried to use your role. is

[Metsfanmax]

I don't agree that we learned nothing from lynching Falko. You are almost certainly right that there were several scum on that wagon. We had to sacrifice a VT to do so, but that wasn't a big sacrifice, especially given how unhelpful Falko has been all game.

Was I under some kind of pressure where I needed more town cred? I don't think there's been a vote against me the entire game. I could have easily slipped under the radar just by joining in on the lynch. No one was looking at Ragian either. If I was scum, then I was taking a big, unnecessary risk with that statement.

Again, poor reasoning. You would be seeking town cred regardless of whether you were under pressure. Indeed, you have playing at this angle even if I make the assumption that you are town, with the explicit stated purpose of being recognized as a town leader so that you can lead the way on future lynches. Furthermore, it's a very well established scum tactic to split the vote so that some appear on the lynch and some do not. You'd be doing yourself a disservice to appear on the lynch since that would peg you as potential scum when he flipped town, and it didn't cost you anything to stay out of the vote since it was clearly going to be happen.

I understand that if you are really town then you have to defend and advance the idea that you're town, but if you can't see that the alternate position has merit, then your reasoning skills/experience are not right for you to be leading town anywhere.

[degaston]

I don't agree that we learned nothing from lynching Falko. You are almost certainly right that there were several scum on that wagon. We had to sacrifice a VT to do so, but that wasn't a big sacrifice, especially given how unhelpful Falko has been all game.

So what did we learn from that lynch? That there were scum in on it? Really? It was worth losing a townie to find out that scum "almost certainly" joined in on lynching a townie? Well stop the freakin' presses!
(Pardon the sarcasm, sometimes I can't resist.)
Needlessly losing any townie is a huge sacrifice right now. Other townies should not treat it so lightly.

Was I under some kind of pressure where I needed more town cred? I don't think there's been a vote against me the entire game. I could have easily slipped under the radar just by joining in on the lynch. No one was looking at Ragian either. If I was scum, then I was taking a big, unnecessary risk with that statement.

Again, poor reasoning. You would be seeking town cred regardless of whether you were under pressure. Indeed, you have playing at this angle even if I make the assumption that you are town, with the explicit stated purpose of being recognized as a town leader so that you can lead the way on future lynches. Furthermore, it's a very well established scum tactic to split the vote so that some appear on the lynch and some do not. You'd be doing yourself a disservice to appear on the lynch since that would peg you as potential scum when he flipped town, and it didn't cost you anything to stay out of the vote since it was clearly going to be happen.

I understand that if you are really town then you have to defend and advance the idea that you're town, but if you can't see that the alternate position has merit, then your reasoning skills/experience are not right for you to be leading town anywhere.

Scum has a huge advantage right now, and town may have to come together almost unanimously in order to lynch scum. It may even be impossible if virus and marashu are town, but don't bother to vote. If you think that I'm scum, and that I needed to take a big risk to try to gain town credit at this point, then maybe you should lay off the wine.

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Effectively that was a D1 lynch. The first two days were process lynches with no info.

To answer Aladdin there are probs about 4-5 mafia total, with a fair smattering of 3rd party.

[Metsfanmax]

So what did we learn from that lynch? That there were scum in on it? Really? It was worth losing a townie to find out that scum "almost certainly" joined in on lynching a townie? Well stop the freakin' presses!

Your own arguments defeat this suggestion. You have already made some guesses as to who is scum based on how the wagon proceeded. So it is more than just information that scum were on it, we can use the specific people who voted to figure out who is scum and who is not. If that were incorrect, then everything you were saying about Ragian, etc. would be meaningless. So you know internally it is true, you are just letting your apparent anger about the Falko lynch cloud your judgment right now. (Or you are willfully misleading us?)

Needlessly losing any townie is a huge sacrifice right now. Other townies should not treat it so lightly.

Falko wasn't really helping us. It was not a big loss. I agree that in the bigger picture we are in a tough spot right now but there's no sense in losing sleep over the Falko lynch, let's just move on and find scum. Sometimes you mislynch a VT. That's just how this game goes.

Scum has a huge advantage right now, and town may have to come together almost unanimously in order to lynch scum. It may even be impossible if virus and marashu are town, but don't bother to vote. If you think that I'm scum, and that I needed to take a big risk to try to gain town credit at this point, then maybe you should lay off the wine.

No, again you are strawmanning to make a point rather than treating the situation dispassionately. I have not argued that you are most likely to be scum, I have argued that this is a plausible interpretation of your actions in the last few pages, as a counterpoint to your proposal that there was only one possible interpretation, namely that you are town and have a good scum radar. Consequently, your "prediction" that Falko was town is meaningless to me from an alignment perspective.

(I also don't agree that it was at all a risk for you to try and gain town credit on that. I have already argued above why this is the case, and you haven't offered any real counterargument, you just asserted it was true.)

[PLAYER57832]

I think the bandwagoning is pretty telling here. Reasons don't really matter, once one of a couple groups makes the suggestion, its a dog pile.
We need to lynch mafia or even 3rd parties, not townies!

[dakky21]

MOD note: It's N3 now so start sending actions if you have them to all 3 of us, dakky21, Epitaph1 and Streaker. Thank you!!!

D4 will continue on Monday I believe. So take your time.

[LSU Tiger Josh]

MOD note: It's N3 now so start sending actions if you have them to all 3 of us, dakky21, Epitaph1 and Streaker. Thank you!!!

D4 will continue on Monday I believe. So take your time.

Why do you need it dakky? You can't even do a vote count for us when storr and I explained how simple it was to do it and Epitaph came after I asked him to at least do the vote count that you were unwilling to do.

Falco was a bad lynch, but there was no stopping that train especially with the lack of defense that was given. I still preferred lynching DJ, but Falco was on my list as a possible scum. I agree that we probably have around 5 more scum with a few more 3rd party still living so we need to get the lynches right. If you're town, find a way to be productive and helpful to town so you won't accidentally find yourself on the wrong end of a lynch.

[rizky_biznezz]

@deg don't think it was that nobody was willing to listen there just wasn't a lot of time left to get everyone on board for a lynch... I think u have made some good points and given us something to follow up on day 4.

I was on the vote for falko I thought he had been a little suspicious not just for the ptlowe vote but because he was completely absent the whole of D1, didn't vote for pancake for the modkill, didn't really have much to say about anyone and never came back with his thoughts on wings list even though he said he would and then didn't even defend himself just gave up kinda like sausage.. So while I wasn't convinced he was scum he wasn't screaming town to me either

[AladdinSane]

Additionally lynching someone generally forces the lynched person to claim. This gives more information.

I'm not seeing dis. Fer a start, it's kinda irelevent if teh linchee claims or not; dey get linched, dey flip, and we know wit sertanty wot dey were. And if teh vig kills sumwun, likewize dey flip and we get eggsackly teh same info as if dey were linched.

Then you dont understand mafia. And you also cant justify voting Falko because he voted PTLowe if the strength of a claim has no bearng on your judgement.

If you meen dat thretening to linch sumwun can get dem to divolge info in the hope I staying alive, den I can see wot you meen, but dat's not wot you ackshually sed. Anyway, prob just a matter of frazing.

[AladdinSane]

AladdinSane, why did you not try and get wing lynched today.

I started D3 been farely convinsed Wing is lincher needing to linch me, becorse of his singul-minded attacks on me frum teh moment he entered teh game up, up to dat point. His vote agin fer me rite at the start of D3 did nuthing to change dat opinyun. As I sed den, he was a low-priority linch becorse he posed no thret to Town, so long as we ignawed him and dident give him his VC - we were better orf going after other scum, then linching him toward the end of teh game. I am still not entirely convinsed he is not lincher, btw - it mite be dat he reelized his fruntal assolt wasent werking and changed taktics. I notise he is not pushing to get me linched resently.

Later, you started dis "Wing is SK" line, but by den my focus was on you. If Wing is SK, tho, den he becums a hi priority linch, so I was keeping a close eye on teh Wing wagon. It dident pick up mutch steem, tho, and den teh dedline was looming, so jumped on teh Falko wagon to help make shore we got a linch and hoped it wood werk out. If Wing had got a cupple moor votes erly enuff, I wood have switched to him and tried fer a linch.

Aladdin, white rose, deg, benga, rish, falko are all anti town.

Tis a shame, Falko was my really obvious doc "save" target! Gonna have to carefully consider now!

Yeeeeeeah, about dat. Wit dat kind of judgement, I'm def not hapy haven you runnen around at nite killen peepul, even if you are Town.

Are you going to help lynch wing tomorrow?

I'd rather wait until we see wot teh nite and morning D4 brings, but atm yeah I tink Wing wood be a good linch target, prob teh best we have rite now. Their are tree theries floating around about Wing: he is lincher (me), he is SK (Storr), and he is Town CPR Doc (wing). If he is wun of teh first too, then it is good fer Town to linch him. If he is CPR Doc, he woodent be a grate loss fer Town, and it mite even be good fer Town becorse, as I posted erlier, he cood go ahead and shoot wun of us. Even if he holds back or (I hope) is jailed tonite, he cood still go off half-cocked tomorow night. He himself points out his roll is potenshally harmful to Town.

I'm still suspishus of you, Storr, but you do have PTLowe's chek on you and, wile not watertite, it does count fer sumtink. If dere is evidense dat, say, Marashu is now an anti-Town zombie, den I wood want to linch him D4 and you D5.

Other playas I am looking at:

LSU TJ, DJP, TWR, Ragian (now dat we are past teh linch dedline, we shood give considerashun to Deg's conserns),
IB, Mets, Player. I'll post on dese as and wen I have time.

Let's see wot teh nite and morning D4 brings, tho...

[WingCmdr Ginkapo]

Can White Rose be modkilled for being a jerk please?

[Falkomagno]

die in hell

[AladdinSane]

I think that if I had been wrong about Ragian, some scum would have helped push that case. The fact that this bandwagon formed so easily on Falko, without much of a case, tells me that he's probably town. I'm keeping my vote where it is.

Is anyone going to start listening to me now (that it's probably too late)? I doubt it.

Vote Ragian

My personal feeling is the deadline is too close for this.

Yes, it would have been difficult since scum would discourage it, as opposed to a Falko lynch. Of course, now it's going to be even more difficult to get a scum lynch.

Vote Ragian

Ragian orso sed he sent sumtink to Benga, and Benga has been logged in today, but has not made an appeerence in teh game. Maybe Ragian's gift has sumtink to do wit dat but den, it wood have been stoopid for Ragian to announse teh gift if he ment harm to Benga. Maybe, tho, teh gift malfunkshunned, as dey orl seem to do, and Benga got acidently silensed or sumthing?

No dout teh usual suspecks will jump on me fer spekulating...

Of teh too inventers, I'm moor conserned about LSU TJ atm, fer reesons awreddy stated. Still, Deg is rite - we shood look at Ragian ferther. I don't see him as a viable D3 linch tho.

FPed WCG. Agree. We don't have time fer this now.

Scum buddies, much? I'm not really buying the cop enabler role anymore. It provides no verifiable proof, and it's existence would be very harmful to town if it were true, making it possible to neutralize at least 3 important town roles.

Re: the Falko wagon and teh hesitanse to discuss yer case aginst Ragian, you have to bare in mind dat teh dedline was Feb 2, and you posted yer ackusashuns aginst Ragian at Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:41 pm - you simply dident leeve time fer teh nesesary diskushun dat wood convinse peepul to go fer it. We needed to get a viable linch wagon together quikly, so wunce momentum gathered on Falk, it pritty mutch became a shore ting. IMO, teh peepul you need to look at on teh list of those dat voted Falk are teh wuns who got dat final push on him started. Benga and RB were their erly on, so whoever was after those two. Now dat teh dedline has passed, I'll spend sum time tinking about yer case aginst Ragian.

"Cop enabler" is wot it is. Wen I got my roll PM, I did sum reserch, hoping fer hints on how to play it: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Enabler.

I don't tink, in teh context of teh game, dat it is as potenshally harmful to Town as you tink.

Firt, in a field of 28 starting, I prob wood have been abul to stay out of site for quiet a wile (at leest until Benga had dun his two investimagashuns) if not fer dis stoopid massclaim ting, and hense no particklar reeson fer Mafia to try to kill me.

Secund, Town got at least wun verry powerful roll (Storr as Town god), a cupple cops (albeit wun insane), and a retired Cop - plus perhaps moor who were sensibul enuff not to claim cop. Town Enabler mite have been included to balance dese.

Turd, dis game incloodes teh posibility of bringink peepul bak frum teh ded, so even if I did get killed and investimagashuns stopped werking, their was a posibility dat I cood be Revived so dey cood start werking agin. BTW, I don't tink teh Mods wood have bothered to set up a Dead Chat id teh only chanse of Revival was a wun-shot by Storr - I tink their have to be moor.

Forth, wun of teh two full-time cops we know about was insane, and Town in a sense prob cort a bit of a brake wen he got NKed - yeh, it's never good to lose a Town, but imagine how confusing tings cood have got if he had lived to do investimagashuns. Losing Marashu's investimagashun ability mite have been a good ting fer Town, were we not in a posishun to know he was insane. Now, of corse, Marashu's alinement, roll, and perhaps sanity is under a cloud, sinse he has been ded and Revived, but if we can sumhow re-verify him, then yes my deth wood agin be potenshally damaging fer Town (apart frum just been damaging in teh sense of a Town ded, I meen)..

Fiff, we had a Doc and we have a Jailer, so I can be perteckted frum NK.

So, it's not true dat my deth wood nootralizes tree inportant Town rolls - only PTLowe's, reely, and - if he can be re-verified - Marashu's.

As fer verifickashun, my roll is as verifabul as a VT's.

[AladdinSane]

die in hell

Dat's not how hell werks, genrally, LOL. You usualy only get their after yer ded awreddy.

[AladdinSane]

You state here that your role is harmful to town, so why shouldn't we lynch you tomorrow?

I am town, and I can choose not to use my power.

By yer own admishun, you tried to use yer power on both N1 and N2...you havent eggsackly demonstrated restraint so far...