INTO THE DEEP (COMPLETE - Mafia Win !!)

[TX AG 90]

More rookie mentoring needed again.

Can someone please explain to me why it is in town's favor to lynch on D1? I keep hearing it's because we get more information, but aren't we only getting information on the person we lynched? They're now gone, how does that help?

I'm sure there is a more nuanced reason, but I'll need help understanding it.

Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial to discuss what our night actions could be. I'm talking about in a general sense, not asking everyone to claim. But since, jfm has claimed a "protective role", if we don't lynch jfm, shouldn't he be guided on who to protect? Can he protect himself at night?

Generally on all days, not only D1, voting patterns are the information you get from lynches. So you can see who was on the wagon, how quickly did they join it, did it turn good or bad, who unvoted and who voted and for what reason... who hammered and why etc.

jfm's soft claim and later not willing to fully claim is scummy as it is, as he is afraid to claim for example a Doctor because he knows he could be counter claimed and therefore scum. So speaking of the night actions in general sense is bad unless you mean to fully claim.

Can't we determine the voting patterns without actually getting to lynch stage? We've already seen people jump off and on the jfm wagon.

You say "for example a Doctor". I'm assuming that is a role and/or there are other protective role titles. And again, can a Doctor protect themselves?

Wouldn't it be just as beneficial to determine as a group who we think is town so jfm or whoever is the Doctor can protect them?

I'm not sure if I should be asking these strategy questions "in game". Maybe I should just takes notes and ask them in between mafia games. But, I'm really enjoying this (my first) and want to continue with future games and would rather not continue bumping around in the dark. I'm just trying to shorten the learning curve so I can be a solid contributor to the game experience.

[aage]

You guys need more proof that jfm is town?

People are appearing from the abyss to vote him, restating old and previously refuted arguments to support their votes

how is that proof he is town?
The whole point anyway is that it is in town's favour to have a lynch on D1. It's unlikely we will hit scum but we will have more info to go on on D2.

OK,

More rookie mentoring needed again.

Can someone please explain to me why it is in town's favor to lynch on D1? I keep hearing it's because we get more information, but aren't we only getting information on the person we lynched? They're now gone, how does that help?

I'm sure there is a more nuanced reason, but I'll need help understanding it.

Entire essays have been written about the subject and not everyone agrees D1 lynch is always good, but I think it is. Dakky already partially answered why. The other, slightly more straightforward reason is that we should be lynching on every game day, because that's the only way town can kill scum (with the exception of vigilantes, but we don't know if we have any of those).

Also, wouldn't it be more beneficial to discuss what our night actions could be. I'm talking about in a general sense, not asking everyone to claim. But since, jfm has claimed a "protective role", if we don't lynch jfm, shouldn't he be guided on who to protect? Can he protect himself at night?

No, we shouldn't be guiding him. Protective roles only have a chance of preventing a death if the scum don't know who they are protecting, and townies mostly don't kill people at night so they don't need to know. Whether or not a protective role can protect themselves depends on the specifics of the role, and again, it's best not to reveal anything because that helps scum, but doesn't help town. That basically goes for every role.

The hypocrisy is not in changing your vote to a wagon that has a chance of succeeding. The hypocrisy is in not helping that wagon to succeed other than with your vote, because as you say, the fabled pro town hero is unlikely to be arriving any time soon.
...
Have a look at me then. But recall that we've played enough games together that you know that this is just my style and is not very alignment indicative. I've never been much of a case-maker, as town or as scum. I mostly just point out what's wrong with other people's arguments, and sometimes that lands me scum.

Alright.

I've already generally described in a previous post why I think Mets is worth looking at. He's pretty deeply involved in the jfm wagon, but chooses to only play defense.
I find that people who 'discuss' as passively as Mets does are generally scum. Mets has been pointing out what's wrong with people's arguments... and nothing else. His vote is on chap but we have to go back to page 2 to see why. Mets has bitten early and isn't letting go. He has been on the defensive for almost the entire game, and not even on behalf of himself at that.
We're trying to find out which people are scum, but Mets isn't looking at people. He's been poking holes in the jfm wagon, but never called anyone on it scummy. Never called anyone out other than chap, for that matter, which seems odd given the amount of discussion so far. He's willing to stick his neck out for jfm, possibly because that's fairly safe - several people, myself included, have done the same and he's statistically likely to flip town - but doesn't accuse the attackers despite his strong disagreements. He says he wants to lynch someone today, but doesn't want to make the case.

Now Mets is claiming this is style indicative... I'm not gonna read back several games to see if this is true. I do know he's played plenty of mafia (cause I was there), and if this is his style, his style is scummy. Playing defense is safe, and it's the scum game. Playing offense is the town game.

[aage]

fp'd

Can't we determine the voting patterns without actually getting to lynch stage? We've already seen people jump off and on the jfm wagon.

We can, but we don't know if jfm is lying or not until he dies, and that information is pretty vital to the analysis of this wagon.

You say "for example a Doctor". I'm assuming that is a role and/or there are other protective role titles. And again, can a Doctor protect themselves?

Wouldn't it be just as beneficial to determine as a group who we think is town so jfm or whoever is the Doctor can protect them?

As I said in the post above, these question aren't pertinent to a town player. If an experienced player were suggesting what you do here, I'd accuse them in a heartbeat. It would only benefit scum.

[dakky21]

I believe the things are currently like this...

Mets wants to lynch D1 but won't vote jfm...
There is not enough momentum to get anyone else to L-2
jfm is currently at L-4 (me, Tobikera and Sirius unvoted)

That means D1 will end in less than 24 hours since no one is at L-2 (as mods said)

Thas said, I will again

vote jfm

but I doubt that will change anything since that is our best chance to get him to L-2 and therefore an extension of 48h.

[dakky21]

Actually, day will end in roughly 13 hours if I counted it correctly... 10-03-2019 at 2 am CCT is in less than 13 hours.

[TX AG 90]

No, we shouldn't be guiding him. Protective roles only have a chance of preventing a death if the scum don't know who they are protecting, and townies mostly don't kill people at night so they don't need to know. Whether or not a protective role can protect themselves depends on the specifics of the role, and again, it's best not to reveal anything because that helps scum, but doesn't help town. That basically goes for every role.

We can, but we don't know if jfm is lying or not until he dies, and that information is pretty vital to the analysis of this wagon.

Good points - thanks!

[Skoffin]

I'd like an extension honestly.

I'm willing to vote pershy, jm or mets at this stage if we can get a move on any of them.

[dakky21]

Exactly that Skoff... I would vote pershy or jfm as I said and aage brought some good points about mets. But none of that can happen if the day ends in 3 hours so I would like an extension too, really. Weekends are slow here on CC and those days shouldn't even be counted towards day ends

[Sirius Kase]

Why would anyone want an extension?

I'm willing to move my vote again, even to someone I've previously voted and unvoted. Except,

I'm still stinging from the accusation of throwing my vote around like a teenager at his first prom. It's true, I am a first timer, but my natural instinct it not to play like an over eager virgin. I was reading without posting until someone sent the mods to poke me, so I started posting. I saw no reason not to vote, if I'm going to post, it might as well be a vote with some sort of explanation. The reaction can be interesting.

So no vote this time. But, if we need to get someone to L-2, I'll join the bandwagon. Knowing why we might want an extension is justification enough to me.

Is dakky right about day ending in 3 hours? I'll check back.

[jfm10]

Why would anyone want an extension?
we need an extesion to get another player to L-2
I'm willing to move my vote again, even to someone I've previously voted and unvoted. Except,
i am asking you to vote for me
I'm still stinging from the accusation of throwing my vote around like a teenager at his first prom. It's true, I am a first timer, but my natural instinct it not to play like an over eager virgin. I was reading without posting until someone sent the mods to poke me, so I started posting. I saw no reason not to vote, if I'm going to post, it might as well be a vote with some sort of explanation. The reaction can be interesting.
i know that uncomfortable feeling
So no vote this time. But, if we need to get someone to L-2, I'll join the bandwagon. Knowing why we might want an extension is justification enough to me.
it's in our best interests that you do put me to L-2
Is dakky right about day ending in 3 hours? I'll check back.

yes he is and 2am becomes 3am for CCT due to daylight savings

[dakky21]

Welp, there goes D1 without a lynch. Not saying it should have happened, but here we go into D2 without knowing anything from D1 except from night actions.. a lot of talk for nothing...

[jfm10]

Welp, there goes D1 without a lynch. Not saying it should have happened, but here we go into D2 without knowing anything from D1 except from night actions.. a lot of talk for nothing...

thank you dakky or fishing for fishing for Tx vote,i will explain right now.

[jfm10]

Pershy is usually much smoother and accommodating than what I have seen since he reappeared and started posting again. Also, without much basis, he immediately take jfm10 to L-1. This is atypical pershy play from my experience with him in about 10-12 games. Most of these recent posts appear to be smoke and are defensive for him. Yes, I think we should have another claim, and I think it should be pershy. IF I was voting for a lynch, it would be him rather than jfm10.

UNVOTE
VOTE Pershy

Tobi has decided to use the wrong colour to unvote/vote meaning i am currently at L-2.

[jfm10]

My ability is "prevent all attacks against your target"

I have been trying to tell yous i am town and i just get the you must be scum for giving out info on yourself.My ability is weak at the beginning of the game as i have a less than 7% chance of picking the scums target unless i make myself the target and then they waste thier night.

I have no choice now but to target myself every night but atleast town now knows that i can only be lynched.Also note attacks is plural so you can count on vigilantes in this game.

[Sirius Kase]

I'm still here, I've got plenty to keep me on the computer until midnight.

I don't know if that #BF0000 is close enough to count as red. It looks red to my eyes, but if I was the mod, I'd have an algorithm looking for and accepting only #FF0000. I probably might have said that up in the rules. But, I'm not a mod.

So, jfm is L-2 or L-3 depending on whether the mods care about the color of Tobikera's vote. I mean, we can't be sure it Tobikera made an honest mistake. Or, how the mods will deal. If the unvote counts, the day is over. Otherwise we get an extension. If nothing changes, we'll know for sure at 3 am, but then it will be too late to do anything about it.

I have more work to do, but I'll be back.

[chapcrap]

chapcrap has been silent for a couple of days.

You'd think someone who's name keeps coming up as a lynching prospect would do more to clear his name. Is he afraid of tripping up?

Is he keeping his head down, hoping the momentum on jfm carries him to a lynching and he survives to D2?

Exactly that Skoff... I would vote pershy or jfm as I said and aage brought some good points about mets. But none of that can happen if the day ends in 3 hours so I would like an extension too, really. Weekends are slow here on CC and those days shouldn't even be counted towards day ends

Sorry, I have had a busy couple of days. Including driving 8 hours round trip (happy 75th birthday grandma!) Weekends are normally better for me on here... Update for me: I'm on vacation next week. I'm unsure if that is good or bad for my activity here. Also, while the game count is dwindling from the February madness, it's still over 250, so... That all explains my inactivity. Just read 100+posts.

i just thought of something else. Two players have been beating the scum must be predators bandwagon, chapcrap and tobi.

If they are mafia and are something innocuous like clams, they would do the same.

I have not beat that bandwagon once. I've actually never beat any bandwagon. Maybe some drums... I discussed it early on.

You guys need more proof that jfm is town?

People are appearing from the abyss to vote him, restating old and previously refuted arguments to support their votes

I am tending to agree with this. And it really sucks to have that role claimed already. I really wish jfm had not have softclaimed, because he wouldn't have gotten pressured into a full claim. I honestly do not see how anyone can vote for him at this point with a role like that as his claim.

vote mets

Come join me, then, aage.

aage's vote is already on chapcrap and he has said it's his top choice. Realistically it's the only other lynch candidate for today. Since I think we should lynch and I am not a fan of the case on jfm, the only thing I can say is that I hope people accept that he's not full claiming and also accept that he has not done enough to warrant a lynch. And then they can move on to the next choice.

At this point, you had the same number of votes as I did. L-6. So, lies.

Quick from phone: Yes, mets, I think it's scummy that you repeatedly put words in my mouth because you were unhappy with the way I posted my thought process, or whatever bugged you about my use of modal verbs.

This is exactly what I see happening every time I post. He has done it to me, you, and aage. Maybe that's why we're all voting him. He is truly the only person that I had felt scum vibes from until:

oh boy, there's a lot of literature here. Catching up....

I am probably the smallest fresh water fish in this game.The last Tokie game didn't have players that could talk with each other at night which makes me believe it was a possible test for this scenario.Players will probably have a personal objective (mine last game was to be on the lynch count of a certain player to be lynched,,which was ragian).

But this isn't a Tokle game. In fact it probably has very little in common.

I quite like that TX AG made a case, it was against chapcrap and seemed like a legit effort to make some headway to me. I still think it's too early to tell much about anything that is going on...

Darin44, that's the guy I keep forgetting. Since he's not around anyway, I'll move my vote to him. Pershy showed up and he made some interesting comments.

unvote, vote Darin44

As soon as pershy is mentioned as inactive he comes in hot. Fastposting himself, seemingly impossible, but he made it happen. And bringing someone to L-1 at the same time. Then SK says he has interesting comments. What comments were interesting? He said nothing at that point. Even his most recent trilogy of posts wasn't amazing.

@jfm If you are the role you claim, protecting yourself is not a bad idea. At the same time, that's what mafia could expect, so you may be safe anyway. Regardless, it's best not to reveal to scum what you will definitely do with your night action. If I had that role, I would protect myself until someone else who is worthy shows up and you feel like it could be worth a risk of your own life.

With jfm at L-2, it looks like we're going to get an extension. I'm going to leave my vote on Mets. He still feels scummy to me.

Fastposted by SK...

I think the mods are probably just using their eyes. That should be apparent with Raz having a few issues keeping the votes straight.

[Sirius Kase]

As soon as pershy is mentioned as inactive he comes in hot. Fastposting himself, seemingly impossible, but he made it happen. And bringing someone to L-1 at the same time. Then SK says he has interesting comments. What comments were interesting? He said nothing at that point. Even his most recent trilogy of posts wasn't amazing.

It's not always what someone says, sometimes it's the timing, or what they don't say.

@jfm If you are the role you claim, protecting yourself is not a bad idea. At the same time, that's what mafia could expect, so you may be safe anyway. Regardless, it's best not to reveal to scum what you will definitely do with your night action. If I had that role, I would protect myself until someone else who is worthy shows up and you feel like it could be worth a risk of your own life.

With jfm at L-2, it looks like we're going to get an extension. I'm going to leave my vote on Mets. He still feels scummy to me.

jfm clearly wants an extension, not quite sure why, but so do several others. Several also want a D1 lynch. I'm not sure why either. If we have the extension, we might be able to organize that D1 lynch. Otherwise, it will soon be night and our next bit of info will come from night action. I haven't seen anyone wanting it to hurry up and be night. I'm still fuzzy about the importance of having a D1 lynch, so I plan to use the extension to read those entire essays on the subject if I can find them.

I think the mods are probably just using their eyes. That should be apparent with Raz having a few issues keeping the votes straight.

Okay, it's probably L-2. I'm tempted to vote, just in case it's L-3, but I think only Raz knows for sure. If I voted and it was L-1, that would be too close, someone who's been completely silent could swoop in and get jfm lynched.

[Metsfanmax]

Just to acknowledge it: jfm's claim does not change my stance. We should not lynch him.

vote mets

Come join me, then, aage.

aage's vote is already on chapcrap and he has said it's his top choice. Realistically it's the only other lynch candidate for today. Since I think we should lynch and I am not a fan of the case on jfm, the only thing I can say is that I hope people accept that he's not full claiming and also accept that he has not done enough to warrant a lynch. And then they can move on to the next choice.

At this point, you had the same number of votes as I did. L-6. So, lies.

i thought it was a fair statement at the time. No one was offering much of a case against me at the time. Ragian's case was that I misinterpreted his comments, which was a ridiculous argument then and is still ridiculous now. He's the one who waffled on whether a D1 lynch would be a good thing in this game, and somehow I'm the one who looks scummy for pointing it out? aage's "case" against me (and BuJaber's) is that I spend most of my time pointing out how other people are wrong. And again, I'll say, that's what I do Every. Single. Game. It's just how I play. I never claimed to be the best mafia player on CC. I do claim to be consistent. Meanwhile there were other people who expressed interest in the case against you, but the jfm business was going on, so it was hard to get other cases started.

Regarding the point that I put words in aage's mouth or answered for him: no. I didn't. I merely pointed out what aage had already said. How is that answering for him? He can make up his own damn mind on what to do. The point of my post was to try and convince Ragian that his approach was foolish. I had no idea that aage would up and switch his vote almost as easily as Sirius Kase does. I might have been wrong about aage, but that's different from saying that my post is scummy. There's nothing scummy about trying to convince other people not to start a wagon against you if you are in fact town.

This is exactly what I see happening every time I post. He has done it to me, you, and aage.

When have I put words in your mouth?

[Razorvich]

strike wolf is going to replace Darrin

I think it only fair that a 48 hour extension be in place for Day 1 for him to get his head around things..

Vote count to come shortly, had a few "Issues" and "paperwork" to deal with in Chat.

[Ragian]

Thanks, Razor.

And oh my lord, mets, why is that you're still beating that dead horse. Not lynching D1 is NOT MY STANCE! Why is it that it's impossible for you to understand that even if you do not hold a particular stance, it's possible to ponder it. All I was saying was that a D1 without a lynch has a higher chance of better consequences in a game with loads of power roles than in a game with few. It was an unimportant sidenote that you're still humping like a rabbit.

Am I not saying it right? English isn't my first language, but I've been known to communicate at least decently in the past. Does anyone else understand what I'm saying?

Welcome, Strike.

[Metsfanmax]

And oh my lord, mets, why is that you're still beating that dead horse. Not lynching D1 is NOT MY STANCE! Why is it that it's impossible for you to understand that even if you do not hold a particular stance, it's possible to ponder it.

Why is that it's impossible for you to understand that merely suggesting things for people to ponder, if they're not serious considerations, is exactly what scum does?

All I was saying was that a D1 without a lynch has a higher chance of better consequences in a game with loads of power roles than in a game with few. It was an unimportant sidenote that you're still humping like a rabbit.

It only continues to be important to the extent that the exchange was essentially the entire basis of your vote on me. Drop the vote on me, I'll drop the issue.

[Ragian]

My vote on you is NOT because you have an issue with me pondering alternatives, which, according to you, is what scum does, but because you keep representing A D1 no lynch as my stance. I don't care (ish) whether you think I'm scummy, I care about how you change my words. To me, that's what scum do. Hence my vote.

[Metsfanmax]

My vote on you is NOT because you have an issue with me pondering alternatives, which, according to you, is what scum does, but because you keep representing A D1 no lynch as my stance. I don't care (ish) whether you think I'm scummy, I care about how you change my words. To me, that's what scum do. Hence my vote.

You're the one who is misrepresenting my stance here. I've never once said that you definitively advocate a D1 no lynch. I've said that the original post represents indecision on the issue, and I gave you the opportunity to clarify why you expressed indecision, which should make it clear that I didn't accuse you of holding that alleged stance. Why would I ask the question below if I thought your original post clearly was advocating for a no lynch?

So my question is simple: are you in favor of a D1 lynch today or not? If you are, why are you pointing out that you might have made another decision?

So to summarize, my original comment was that you shouldn't have any indecision on this matter, not that you were definitively taking a stand for a D1 lynch. I think the indecision was something of a scum tell, so I brought it up. Perhaps the only reason it got to this point is because your initial comment accused me of "pounding" on you merely for commenting that I disagreed with your reasoning.

[BuJaber]

Mets if you had to vote someone on the jfm wagon who would it be?

[strike wolf]

Confirm. I still have a bit to read up on but should be able to at least have a general idea where the game is before long.