Wishy-Washy Mafia (7/13) Endgame: Forgiveness (Town Win)

[kratos644]

Sorry one more problem, Safari, you can't play follow the cop if I die because then there is no guarantee that the cop won't get recruited/killed.

If you die, we have two probable scenarios.

1. If you are town- greg wasn't recruited, ergo follow the cop.

2. If you aren't town- greg probably was recruited, ergo lynch greg and win game.

Again, you're trying to say that we have 2 cult recruiters in a 13 person game? I cannot see how that would be balanced for 13 people unless every town player has some sort of night action. And with VT's being part of the game, it would be very difficult for town to win with what we have.

Scare tactics to get pressure off you doesn't work when the numbers don't back you up.

What explanation is there other than a second recruiter? I'm not trying to use scare tactics just saying that a second recruiter seems our probable explanation. Remember continued balance was not promised so this could be the scenario. Not to mention, the recruit method was done completely different from the other cult. I believe it was likely the scenario that hotshot offered where the two recruiters hot the same target causing the recruitee to die

[Nebuchadnezer]

Sorry one more problem, Safari, you can't play follow the cop if I die because then there is no guarantee that the cop won't get recruited/killed.

If you die, we have two probable scenarios.

1. If you are town- greg wasn't recruited, ergo follow the cop.

2. If you aren't town- greg probably was recruited, ergo lynch greg and win game.

Again, you're trying to say that we have 2 cult recruiters in a 13 person game? I cannot see how that would be balanced for 13 people unless every town player has some sort of night action. And with VT's being part of the game, it would be very difficult for town to win with what we have.

Scare tactics to get pressure off you doesn't work when the numbers don't back you up.

What explanation is there other than a second recruiter? I'm not trying to use scare tactics just saying that a second recruiter seems our probable explanation. Remember continued balance was not promised so this could be the scenario. Not to mention, the recruit method was done completely different from the other cult. I believe it was likely the scenario that hotshot offered where the two recruiters hot the same target causing the recruitee to die

Did nobody read my post?

[gregwolf121]

i would have to agree with the 2 cult idea, for the following reasons
1 start of day 2 we learned that the night kill was a recruitee, peggy dow fan club member,
2 end of day 2 we lynched TFO who was megan fox turned peggy dow fan club president,
3 i believe that the club president would be the equivalant of the recruiter
4 based on the information in scene that started day 3 some one else was recruited during night 2
5 there is a second recruiter

unless, there were more peggy dow fan members and with the death of the president one of them was given the recruiting powers, but that seems unlikely.
also looking at the night scenes the way it shows the people being recruited is completly different, which would indicate there being 2 recruiters instead of one

It was the longest night of the year, everyone knew that. It was what they didn't know that scared them the most. Not the peaceful quiteness, broken by trains and the occasional animal, but rather the deathly silence that bode no good will to those in town. One Vanilla Townie was up particularly late that evening working on an experiment when he heard a knock on the door. The character looked vaguely familiar and as he opened his door showed him some Gravure black and white photos of a stunning Miss in her prime. Whispering silently he said, I'll lend you some more if you sign here and attend the regular meetings. Silently he slipped out the door and not a block down the street he hears two loud gunshots from the house he just vacated. Terrified he ran into the night.
Anarkistsdream I.M.A. Genius Peggy Dow Fanclub Member has been Killed!

If you haven't received your Night action results don't worry, I wanted to open the day first since it has been delayed.

The night was peaceful. The fake photographer was gone, through sickness, absence or otherwise. Gone, gone for good. The night hung on edge, waiting for something to happen. But not all was tense that night. A knock on a door, the man opened a crack peering out. "Who is it?" in quiet the gruff tone. A jovial voice replied, "Why don't you open up a bit more so you can see!" When the door opened a bit more the man presented a drink. "I am persuaded he said that just a bit of my special mix will make you much happier! Here I will show you that it isn't poisoned!" Taking a sip he passed it to the man in the house, and they soon became comrades. As the man walked home he tensed, remembering the fate of another the previous night. But no gunshots no dead appeared that night. In fact, when the sun arose they were all still there.
D3 Start!

in the first the recruiter shows pictures, which would be the peggy dow fanclub
in the second he offers a drink, a second cult

so to me the events say that there is a second recruiter, if you disagree would you please explain how there is only one?

[Melkor52]

i would have to agree with the 2 cult idea, for the following reasons
1 start of day 2 we learned that the night kill was a recruitee, peggy dow fan club member,
2 end of day 2 we lynched TFO who was megan fox turned peggy dow fan club president,
3 i believe that the club president would be the equivalant of the recruiter
4 based on the information in scene that started day 3 some one else was recruited during night 2
5 there is a second recruiter

unless, there were more peggy dow fan members and with the death of the president one of them was given the recruiting powers, but that seems unlikely.
also looking at the night scenes the way it shows the people being recruited is completly different, which would indicate there being 2 recruiters instead of one

It was the longest night of the year, everyone knew that. It was what they didn't know that scared them the most. Not the peaceful quiteness, broken by trains and the occasional animal, but rather the deathly silence that bode no good will to those in town. One Vanilla Townie was up particularly late that evening working on an experiment when he heard a knock on the door. The character looked vaguely familiar and as he opened his door showed him some Gravure black and white photos of a stunning Miss in her prime. Whispering silently he said, I'll lend you some more if you sign here and attend the regular meetings. Silently he slipped out the door and not a block down the street he hears two loud gunshots from the house he just vacated. Terrified he ran into the night.
Anarkistsdream I.M.A. Genius Peggy Dow Fanclub Member has been Killed!

If you haven't received your Night action results don't worry, I wanted to open the day first since it has been delayed.

The night was peaceful. The fake photographer was gone, through sickness, absence or otherwise. Gone, gone for good. The night hung on edge, waiting for something to happen. But not all was tense that night. A knock on a door, the man opened a crack peering out. "Who is it?" in quiet the gruff tone. A jovial voice replied, "Why don't you open up a bit more so you can see!" When the door opened a bit more the man presented a drink. "I am persuaded he said that just a bit of my special mix will make you much happier! Here I will show you that it isn't poisoned!" Taking a sip he passed it to the man in the house, and they soon became comrades. As the man walked home he tensed, remembering the fate of another the previous night. But no gunshots no dead appeared that night. In fact, when the sun arose they were all still there.
D3 Start!

in the first the recruiter shows pictures, which would be the peggy dow fanclub
in the second he offers a drink, a second cult

so to me the events say that there is a second recruiter, if you disagree would you please explain how there is only one?

Granted I'm new to this mafia game stuff, but where does it say that recruitment is always done by the same method? As I understand it, for a traditional mafia, the mafia leader chooses the victim and a thug goes out and kills him. Isn't a cult likely to be the same way? The cult leader chooses the one to recruit and a follower goes out to recruit him. If the cult recruiter is killed then wouldn't the cult leader (presumably the only one left) have to go out and recruit by himself? If so perhaps he recruited the peggy dow lover by using a potion originally (before the game started). I tend to agree with Safariguy, two cults seems like a lot stacked against the town. And like I say, "new guy here", but it just seems to me that declaring yourself as a town power role makes you a prime target for recruitment unless your already scum.

I also don't think any of these recruit one night/ kill another theory's/red hearings, is correct. A far simpler explanation is an undeclared vig. Since TFO was lynched he probably seen his intended target dead and so stayed home last night. But all of this is conjecture. Is there ANY way to verify anything or is this game all about who you believe is telling the truth?

[jonty125]

The 2nd recruiter could be a pro town mason recruiter.

[safariguy5]

All we really have is some flavor spec based on the scenes. We don't know for sure whether or not we have 2 cults, but for the mod to be moving the goalposts based on how we are playing would be exceedingly imbalanced.

Let's assume for a second that kratos is telling the truth about his role. How useful is his role really if we assume there are 2 cults. If all he can tell us is whether or not the person has been recruited, then all we can do is lynch the recruitee. It doesn't help us figure out who is doing the recruiting. On the surface, it seems like an investigative role, but really, it doesn't do anything too relevant. And if we have 2 cults, the number of recruits would have risen much faster, which makes your power much stronger.

If I had to guess what the night scene represented, I would say we have some sort of poisoner role instead. And I figure kratos used the cover to cult to eliminate the person most likely to find him.

[kratos644]

All we really have is some flavor spec based on the scenes. We don't know for sure whether or not we have 2 cults, but for the mod to be moving the goalposts based on how we are playing would be exceedingly imbalanced.

Let's assume for a second that kratos is telling the truth about his role. How useful is his role really if we assume there are 2 cults. If all he can tell us is whether or not the person has been recruited, then all we can do is lynch the recruitee. It doesn't help us figure out who is doing the recruiting. On the surface, it seems like an investigative role, but really, it doesn't do anything too relevant. And if we have 2 cults, the number of recruits would have risen much faster, which makes your power much stronger.

If I had to guess what the night scene represented, I would say we have some sort of poisoner role instead. And I figure kratos used the cover to cult to eliminate the person most likely to find him.

How is my role investigative at all? If you were to compare it I'd say the comparison is more like a doctor because I can prevent a person from being recruited not tell if they were recruited...

[kratos644]

All we really have is some flavor spec based on the scenes. We don't know for sure whether or not we have 2 cults, but for the mod to be moving the goalposts based on how we are playing would be exceedingly imbalanced.

Let's assume for a second that kratos is telling the truth about his role. How useful is his role really if we assume there are 2 cults. If all he can tell us is whether or not the person has been recruited, then all we can do is lynch the recruitee. It doesn't help us figure out who is doing the recruiting. On the surface, it seems like an investigative role, but really, it doesn't do anything too relevant. And if we have 2 cults, the number of recruits would have risen much faster, which makes your power much stronger.

If I had to guess what the night scene represented, I would say we have some sort of poisoner role instead. And I figure kratos used the cover to cult to eliminate the person most likely to find him.

How is my role investigative at all? If you were to compare it I'd say the comparison is more like a doctor because I can prevent a person from being recruited not tell if they were recruited...

EBWOP, I see in my claim I referred to it as being like a roleblocker on effective on the recruiter so the same analogy applies because in essence a doctor is a "roleblocker" only effective against killing roles and they have to target the one being killed just as I have to target the one being recruited in order to prevent the recruitment.

[Nebuchadnezer]

The 2nd recruiter could be a pro town mason recruiter.

Yes...I'm sure that's it....

[kratos644]

Did nobody read my post?

Which post are you referring to? The case against Melkor or a different one? I agree that trying to push a lynch on a recruitee instead of finding the recruiter can appear scummy but I also feel like his vote was more of a noobie vote thinking hey I bet he is scum so let's lynch him not thinking that the recruiter should be the ultimate goal instead. Or he could be a mafia genius and anticipated that to be people's reaction so he thought he'd try to sneak it through.

[Flow520]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

[safariguy5]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

If that was the case, then if the two groups are close in number, we would never see a lynch and the game would stall by around Day 4.

[Nebuchadnezer]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

If that was the case, then if the two groups are close in number, we would never see a lynch and the game would stall by around Day 4.

There was no promised balance in this one. in that case, it would have come down to who recruited the best players and how the nightkills played out.

[Melkor52]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

So why weren't there two recruits on both day one and two? NO, I think we have only one cult and that they/he can still recruit despite having us lynch their first recruiter. We lynched TFO and a SK/Vig took out his first recruit is my belief. If I am correct then only one recruit will happen tonight. I think we need to find the cult leader who is now recruiting. And is still believe Greg and kratos are the prime suspects. Greg as the recruited and Kratos as the cult leader.

I also note that both Greg and kratos are the ones promoting the 2 cult's theory/red hearing. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

[kratos644]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

So why weren't there two recruits on both day one and two? NO, I think we have only one cult and that they/he can still recruit despite having us lynch their first recruiter. We lynched TFO and a SK/Vig took out his first recruit is my belief. If I am correct then only one recruit will happen tonight. I think we need to find the cult leader who is now recruiting. And is still believe Greg and kratos are the prime suspects. Greg as the recruited and Kratos as the cult leader.

I also note that both Greg and kratos are the ones promoting the 2 cult's theory/red hearing. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Greg and I oh and flow. Don't forget hotshot. Oh and Neb, too. But yes Greg and I are the only ones who have said they think there were 2 recruiters in play. With TFO dead that makes 1 left

You do realize the idea of the recruiter's powers passing to one of his recruits is even more absurd than 2 recruiters right?

I believe it was hotshot that brought it up and I think I agree with his scenario most. Both recruiters went for the same person so one recruited and the other killed.

[Melkor52]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

So why weren't there two recruits on both day one and two? NO, I think we have only one cult and that they/he can still recruit despite having us lynch their first recruiter. We lynched TFO and a SK/Vig took out his first recruit is my belief. If I am correct then only one recruit will happen tonight. I think we need to find the cult leader who is now recruiting. And is still believe Greg and kratos are the prime suspects. Greg as the recruited and Kratos as the cult leader.

I also note that both Greg and kratos are the ones promoting the 2 cult's theory/red hearing. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Greg and I oh and flow. Don't forget hotshot. Oh and Neb, too. But yes Greg and I are the only ones who have said they think there were 2 recruiters in play. With TFO dead that makes 1 left

You do realize the idea of the recruiter's powers passing to one of his recruits is even more absurd than 2 recruiters right?

I believe it was hotshot that brought it up and I think I agree with his scenario most. Both recruiters went for the same person so one recruited and the other killed.

Why kratos, if this wasn't typed I would believe you where shouting. Have I struck a nerve?
Unvote Vote kratos

[safariguy5]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

So why weren't there two recruits on both day one and two? NO, I think we have only one cult and that they/he can still recruit despite having us lynch their first recruiter. We lynched TFO and a SK/Vig took out his first recruit is my belief. If I am correct then only one recruit will happen tonight. I think we need to find the cult leader who is now recruiting. And is still believe Greg and kratos are the prime suspects. Greg as the recruited and Kratos as the cult leader.

I also note that both Greg and kratos are the ones promoting the 2 cult's theory/red hearing. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Greg and I oh and flow. Don't forget hotshot. Oh and Neb, too. But yes Greg and I are the only ones who have said they think there were 2 recruiters in play. With TFO dead that makes 1 left

You do realize the idea of the recruiter's powers passing to one of his recruits is even more absurd than 2 recruiters right?

I believe it was hotshot that brought it up and I think I agree with his scenario most. Both recruiters went for the same person so one recruited and the other killed.

I've seen games with multiple recruiters before. Usually, it means that one of them gets their recruit denied.

Also, the flavor of the night scene did not seem to me like it was a failed recruitment that ended up with a kill. Seemed more like a deliberate kill to me. That combined with the lack of a mention of a kill or indeed anyone saving someone on the verge of getting killed makes me lean more towards vig than SKer, but we would need additional information to be sure.

[HotShot53]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

Maybe he thought this might happen... but since one recruiter has already been lynched, that's not the case anymore, and the quickest way to win is to lynch the other recruiter. Trying to make people think the recruiters aren't all that bad is kind of scummy sounding...

Plus, you bandwagoned but tried to deflect the scum hunting on whomever hammered TFO (see all the posts made back when TFO was lynched).

And so far in day 3 you've only posted once, the above post I quoted.

Overall, you seem the most suspicious to me, so I will vote Flow520

[Flow520]

Overall, you seem the most suspicious to me, so I will vote Flow520

You are trying to suggest my vote on TFO (Now known to be scum) makes me your personal most likely candidate to be scum? That doesn't make sense at all.
If TFO had instead been town, then I still think the person who hammered would have been a good choice for nighttime investigations and starting point for next day discussion.

[kratos644]

Why kratos, if this wasn't typed I would believe you where shouting. Have I struck a nerve?
Unvote Vote kratos

Good luck with that man. I'm not much of a hothead and this is just a game. I'm much more of a smartass so change the shouting to more of a rhetorical duh type of statement and you're golden.

Anyway since you guys are so strong against the two recruiter theory I guess I'll have to say the reason I'm so for the two recruiters is flavor text I have in my role pm. The reason I was avoiding sharing that is because it's not exactly something I can tell you what it says... I'm not looking to be the next mtamburi

[HotShot53]

Overall, you seem the most suspicious to me, so I will vote Flow520

You are trying to suggest my vote on TFO (Now known to be scum) makes me your personal most likely candidate to be scum? That doesn't make sense at all.
If TFO had instead been town, then I still think the person who hammered would have been a good choice for nighttime investigations and starting point for next day discussion.

No, it was how you voted and at the same time tried to project scummines onto some else in advance. Since TFO was a recruiter with his recruit already killed, he had no allies so everyone would want him dead.

Plus, after drawing some heat for that, you have almost disappeared this day... but responded instantly to my vote. That looks like scummarizing to me.

[jonty125]

Has anyone considered the idea that the game was designed for "town" as it is normally defined to fail?
I mean, if we are considering two recruiting groups, it's possible the game was designed for all the VT's to be quickly recruited into one of the two groups and the real game to be the battle between these two groups for dominance. So it's like "Wishy-Washy Mafia" because there is no mafia and instead the "Wishy-Washy" battle between two recruiting groups.

So why weren't there two recruits on both day one and two? NO, I think we have only one cult and that they/he can still recruit despite having us lynch their first recruiter. We lynched TFO and a SK/Vig took out his first recruit is my belief. If I am correct then only one recruit will happen tonight. I think we need to find the cult leader who is now recruiting. And is still believe Greg and kratos are the prime suspects. Greg as the recruited and Kratos as the cult leader.

I also note that both Greg and kratos are the ones promoting the 2 cult's theory/red hearing. I could be wrong, but that's what my gut tells me.

Greg and I oh and flow. Don't forget hotshot. Oh and Neb, too. But yes Greg and I are the only ones who have said they think there were 2 recruiters in play. With TFO dead that makes 1 left

You do realize the idea of the recruiter's powers passing to one of his recruits is even more absurd than 2 recruiters right?

I believe it was hotshot that brought it up and I think I agree with his scenario most. Both recruiters went for the same person so one recruited and the other killed.

Why kratos, if this wasn't typed I would believe you where shouting. Have I struck a nerve?
Unvote Vote kratos

Melkor, I don't understand your case on kratos. It seems to be based on him saying that the power of recruitment been inheritable is absurd - which it is.

[safariguy5]

Why kratos, if this wasn't typed I would believe you where shouting. Have I struck a nerve?
Unvote Vote kratos

Good luck with that man. I'm not much of a hothead and this is just a game. I'm much more of a smartass so change the shouting to more of a rhetorical duh type of statement and you're golden.

Anyway since you guys are so strong against the two recruiter theory I guess I'll have to say the reason I'm so for the two recruiters is flavor text I have in my role pm. The reason I was avoiding sharing that is because it's not exactly something I can tell you what it says... I'm not looking to be the next mtamburi

So if we assume that we indeed have two recruiters (I'm still not sold on it based on flavor text, but I'll assume that right now) then was is the utility of kratos's role?

If people are going to get recruited, what's the point of preventing the recruitment? You're at most going to block one recruitment a night, and this is assuming you yourself don't get recruited. So all you really do is mess around with the recruitment balance, and this is assuming you guess the right person being recruited. Which in the early game is pretty low in probability due to the large number of targets.

Bottom line is that my case on kratos hinges mostly on him visiting the claimed cop on Night 2, and his roleclaim being of limited utility at best which makes me think he's fakeclaiming. I've yet to hear any good reasons why kratos would have that role, and the two recruiter theory actually makes his role weaker rather than stronger.

[kratos644]

I believe he thought he frustrated me implying I was scum? It's a fairly weak one but oh well. At least safari actually had a case

Fast posted by saf himself. Would you say a doctor has no use because they have to get the same person as the one being killed? From what it appears, I'm essentially the protective role because our threat was recruiters instead of killers. Now that we have one recruiter instead of 2 my role is obviously strengthened

[safariguy5]

I believe he thought he frustrated me implying I was scum? It's a fairly weak one but oh well. At least safari actually had a case

Fast posted by saf himself. Would you say a doctor has no use because they have to get the same person as the one being killed? From what it appears, I'm essentially the protective role because our threat was recruiters instead of killers. Now that we have one recruiter instead of 2 my role is obviously strengthened

You're using the fallacy of hindsight to defend your role. Your defense hinges on the assumption that we dealt with one of the cult recruiters early. If indeed we had 2 cult recruiters at the beginning of the game, then your role still is near useless. Just conveniently, we happen to deal with one faction almost right off the bat, but that doesn't justify the role balance here.

I think there's a good indicator here of whether or not we have two cult recruiters. The real question here is if anyone was assigned a doctor role (or bodyguard). If they were, then we know we have to have night killing roles (mafia or SKer) which would strongly weaken the 2 cult claim. If nobody claims doctor or bodyguard,then I'd be willing to believe the 2 cult claim.

Also, no worries if you do claim doc or bodyguard, I can at least watch you to prevent the SKer for a night or two and give greg more time to find the scum.