Psychology Mafia ~ Game Over, Mafia Victory

[jak111]

Ok. Fos saf for not addressing my jak case.

You have no case Doom, no matter how much you wish you were right you seriously have no case ON me for Safari to bother replying to. Just saying. I could be like "Oh Doom is trying to lynch anybody he can to get the day done and over with" <- Whether that's true or not. Then I could be like you and expect people to give that a serious analysis with no evidence backing it up.

[pancakemix]

Unvote for starters.

Ok. Fos saf for not addressing my jak case.

You have no case Doom, no matter how much you wish you were right you seriously have no case ON me for Safari to bother replying to. Just saying. I could be like "Oh Doom is trying to lynch anybody he can to get the day done and over with" <- Whether that's true or not. Then I could be like you and expect people to give that a serious analysis with no evidence backing it up.

You're suggesting that vodean use his action to verify Doom's claim. It's pretty much using it just to be super duper 100% very much sure. It's kind of a waste. Is it scummy? Not enough to vote, I don't think. It's not worth it just because you're scared of a little WIFOM, though.

[jak111]

Not scared, just pointing out that Doom pressuring Safari to reply on his case on me isn't really going to get him far.

[/]

Honestly, if scum is smart, the cop won't die tonight even without a doc, I think confirming the role wouldn't be a bad move for town objectively.

[safariguy5]

Normally I would say directing actions isn't scummy, but I think being illogical is scummy. Get ready jak, our regularly scheduled argument is coming up. Why would you have the tracker waste an action following the cop when you know full well that the doctor is dead?

Basically, if I am alive tomorrow, I am not the cop. Vodean should use his action on scummier players.

Vote jak

I assume this is the case on jak you wanted me to reply to?

So you say we shouldn't be directing the investigative role, but then you say vodean should be using on "scummier people". Which is basically just a vaguer way of directing the action. If you truly thought that we shouldn't be directing actions, then you would have said something like "vodean should investigate whoever he wants to". You yourself are also influencing vodean's action, especially when you vote jak in the same post. It's basically like saying "investigate scummy people" while highlighting jak as a "scummy person" for vodean to investigate. The only difference is that you just weren't so blatant about directing the action.

So no, I don't think your case on jak holds any water.

[DoomYoshi]

Wrong. I specifically said that directing is not what is scummy. Using bad logic is the scummy part. He is intending to waste the tracker's action on a role which will most likely be proved tomorrow. / , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

[jak111]

Wrong. I specifically said that directing is not what is scummy. Using bad logic is the scummy part. He is intending to waste the tracker's action on a role which will most likely be proved tomorrow. / , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

There's still the possibility of you being scum bud. No matter of a counter claim no role is promised in this game and since you visited a now dead person, me telling Vodean to keep a tab on who you visit it a VERY solid idea. Real cop could be hiding or not exist at all. So truthfully, you're not in the clear. I'm hoping a tracker report can solve it up for you. If you do die then we'll use whatever other roles are out there. But if you don't die then we'll need someone to confirm that you didn't go off and visit another dead person. Get what I mean?

[/]

/ , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

Because certain common roles could still be in the game, let's leave it at that and let scum make their own mistakes.

[DoomYoshi]

Wrong. I specifically said that directing is not what is scummy. Using bad logic is the scummy part. He is intending to waste the tracker's action on a role which will most likely be proved tomorrow. / , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

There's still the possibility of you being scum bud. No matter of a counter claim no role is promised in this game and since you visited a now dead person, me telling Vodean to keep a tab on who you visit it a VERY solid idea. Real cop could be hiding or not exist at all. So truthfully, you're not in the clear. I'm hoping a tracker report can solve it up for you. If you do die then we'll use whatever other roles are out there. But if you don't die then we'll need someone to confirm that you didn't go off and visit another dead person. Get what I mean?

Nope.

[soundman]

Wrong. I specifically said that directing is not what is scummy. Using bad logic is the scummy part. He is intending to waste the tracker's action on a role which will most likely be proved tomorrow. / , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

There's still the possibility of you being scum bud. No matter of a counter claim no role is promised in this game and since you visited a now dead person, me telling Vodean to keep a tab on who you visit it a VERY solid idea. Real cop could be hiding or not exist at all. So truthfully, you're not in the clear. I'm hoping a tracker report can solve it up for you. If you do die then we'll use whatever other roles are out there. But if you don't die then we'll need someone to confirm that you didn't go off and visit another dead person. Get what I mean?

Why waste a Tracker result on something that is practically confirmed? If Doom isn't the cop then it'll come out eventually.

[jak111]

Why waste a Tracker result on something that is practically confirmed? If Doom isn't the cop then it'll come out eventually.

When's eventually? At the end of the game? We don't know if the mafia have fake claims and which roles are in place here. The fact that he visited a dead person coincidentally could mean he was cop who got a bad guess or he is mafia who took Jonty out in the night.

Also Soundman. You haven't claimed yet. This is the final day I believe for today. So without any better cases to go on Unvote, Vote Soundman.

[safariguy5]

Wrong. I specifically said that directing is not what is scummy. Using bad logic is the scummy part. He is intending to waste the tracker's action on a role which will most likely be proved tomorrow. / , why don't you think I will be dead tomorrow?

I may be arguing semantics here, but you started out your post with "Normally I would say directing actions isn't scummy" which implies that this is not a normal case and that in this instance, you DO think directing actions is scummy. I will say that mafia roleblocker and framer can just as easily fake a cop claim to justify tracker seeing them visit someone. So no, I don't think we can automatically assume role confirmation based on 1 night's investigations.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Sorry for the delay. Deadline has arrived. I will write the scene tonight.

[Mr. Squirrel]

I am very very sorry for the delay guys. I just moved into my new apartment and I have had little internet access here. I had the scene written, but I need to clarify something with a player before I post it.

[Mr. Squirrel]

Vote Count

Soundman (2) - vodean, jak
jak (1) - doomyoshi

A memo from the office of Dr. Wright

Patient: Arthur and Helen Wetterer
Reason for Visit: Marital Counseling
Time of Visit: 7:30 AM Saturday, August 25th

Notes:
This morning's session was quite the setback. This is the third time I have seen the Wetterers and little progress has been made. I talked to Arthur 1 on 1 today, hoping he would open up some more without his wife present. Unfortunately, I was correct.

He told me how he never wanted a child to begin with. He said he only did it because Helen wanted one. He blames her "womanly sensitivities" for the current unhappiness in their marriage. I listened attentively. He was in quite a fit and I felt it would be better to address this when he is calmer. Hopefully I can lead him towards changing this mindset, but I fear it might be too late.

Love - Soundman (Town Helpful Roleblocker) has been lynched.

I decided to change the subject. In a previous session he had told me of the nice dinners he had taken her to and the gifts he had given to cheer her up. I asked if he was still doing these things. He answered no. When asked why, he exploded into a long tirade on how he feels it is a waste of money, calling his wife an "emotionless leech". I asked him to do something personal, not expensive. Needless to say, he refused.

Generosity - Lord Voldemort ( Suicide Reviver) has died.

As he was walking out, Arthur turned at the doorway and smiled at me. He said, "Y'know doc, I am glad I got that off my chest." He gave a grin that looked rather odd. I can't help but feel that he is going to get worse before he ever gets better...

Hope - Strike Wolf has been revived!

Night 2 begins!
you have 72 hours to send in your night actions

[zimmah]

told you so.

go mafia. you should have this game in your bag now.

[lord voldemort]

told you so.

go mafia. you should have this game in your bag now.

Dont blame the town because you played bad. A claim would of saved you and it would of been fine

[zimmah]

told you so.

go mafia. you should have this game in your bag now.

Dont blame the town because you played bad. A claim would of saved you and it would of been fine

you didn't even have a serious case on me, me and sound were right not to claim.

don't shove it on me everytime. you failed.

[lord voldemort]

No you failed.....You failed into letting everyone believe you were scum....

[strike wolf]

I'll be biting my tongue until morning (hopefully not longer)

[Mr. Squirrel]

An excerpt from the journal of Helen Wetterer

Aug. 27th, 2012

Arthur and I had another fight today. I tried to calm him, explain more thoroughly my feelings, but all he did was yell louder. At one point he raised his hand as if he was going to hit me. I no longer feel safe here. As of tomorrow I will be living with my mother. I fear that this may be the end for us.

Trust - campin_killer (town sharer) has been lost.

He has been spending many long nights at work. That is when I will leave. He won't even realize I'm gone until I'm safely at my mother's house. I hope his job help him through this, because I'm done trying.

Apathy - / (third party canceler) has been lost.

Day 3 begins.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline a week from today

[/]

Oh, my non-existence is rather inconvenient, it makes me feel...nothing

Go whoever, or not...

[jak111]

If I'm right, we're at LYLO boys (I'm thinking maybe 3 mafia) But if I'm wrong we're at MYLO

Strike = CLEARED (for obvious reasons)

from my angle I'm looking at 5 of ya and with 2-3 mafia I'm liking my odds if we're able to get night actions with incriminating evidence.

[edocsil]

Safari. Verify my action if you will.

[strike wolf]

Ok. Thoughts. The love thing yesterday was ridiculous. Reading it. It was an off-hand comment. Maybe shouldn't have been made but two to three people (notably Jak and vodean) really jumped on it and turned it into a bigger issue. Zimmah did make an off-hand comment about how love isn't negative and then it started getting twisted into "Love is negative" in this game. Zimmah did screw up his defense but not including Hope ( ) love is the most believable claim in the game.

The Vodean/Dim back and forth..while I have trouble arguing with a cop and tracker claim...sounded a lot like a messed up scum plan. "Hey vodean you have info for us?" "yeah but how do you know that? Did you feed me the info?" "Oh well umm...no...I just figured because you were curiousity maybe you were investigative." Could still be an innocent transaction.

However my bigger issue is with Jak. He was one of the one's who really pushed the Love can be bad issue and some of the things he've said were blatantly false:

With great love.. comes great jealousy (<.< See what I did there? XD). You may think these to be two different emotions, but they hardly are different in reality. You can't really love someone and not be jealous if he/she loved somebody else. It's still love, just a twisted version that can bring forth hatred..

Wrong, love is not jealous under any circumstances, if you truly love someone you want someone to be happy, even if that does not directly affect you. Being in love with someone is still not the same as having love for someone. Stop confusing entirely different emotions with love. No matter how you put it, love is a very pure emotion, and there is a reason god IS love. God would not state he is love if love was not a pure and good emotion. And clearly, god loves us all and is in love with neither of us, and he surely doesn't want to have sex with us either.

There's also no need for me to claim, there's more than enough scummy people out there, and claiming would only help the mafia.

I'm going to throw my Fos at you for even bringing up this subject. Especially since we have a sadness to chase already, I mean, sadness can really destroy someone. Especially after what the main character has been through, sadness is one of the mayor emotions that can bring the main character down.

So now you're claiming someone stated he is love when no one has really heard him speak? Scummy.

Anyway, the main reason why I'm on you and pressuring you is because you're CONSTANTLY trying to get us onto Vodean, could be scum trying to throw another under the bus, or could be scum trying to divert our attention for all we know. Either way, you keep raising my suspicion on you and you're not letting other people really post to divert my attention away from you. Lord V could be laying low by just being like "Yep, I agree" and let us keep dueling this out. (All WIFOM of course).

Ummm...false. He was not pushing the case on Vodean. He seemed more in favor of pressing a case on Edocsil day 2 and he had sided with Vodean initially day 1.

But in Mafia you can't use some religious text to defend yourself, and without about 1 million people playing this, chances are some emotions are combined with others to form a BASIC emotion. Love is not pure because there are just too many branches of love to just say the emotion of love is a pure emotion at all.

Another problem I'm having is the religious text you're bringing into the Mafia game. This is a game, no religious text, no personal feelings, no outside information is going to say that you are town or mafia.

To say that love cannot bring forth some of the most evilest emotions known to man is completely off. Some of the worst emotions we know about are the result of an emotion that we believe to be innocent.

Now, going to sadness. It probably is one of the more town emotions. Honestly, he just lost his daughter, without sadness he'd be a cold hearted man for sure. Without sadness he wouldn't really be human if he was happy or excited about what happened. If he were any of those I'd question the main character's sanity.

Love however can drive the man to suicide. If he loves his daughter too much he may take his own life.

Do not say love is pure, for it is a dark emotion that can drive people down to insanity. It's an emotion that can rip people apart from the inside. You can hide behind religious texts, but I'm going on FACTS. Love.. is an emotion that if left unchecked, can make a man into a monster. Do not try and claim that it is pure and always good.

ALL emotions are open to being good or bad Zimmah (and anyone following his "pure" claim). It doesn't matter what examples you use, there are examples to prove otherwise. Unless someone is a SPECIFIC emotion (joy, cheerful, jealousy, compassion, etc). Basic emotions have no room to claim to be good or bad.

Interesting theories on emotions that make up "love"

A list of a few emotions

^ I wish to direct you to something in this wiki
Love has THREE secondary emotions. Affection, Lust, Longing. Lust is a secondary emotion, whether you prefer it to be or not. Mind you this is only a few people's thoughts on love, Mr.Squirrel really has the final say for what love means in this Mafia. But I am here to just point out that it is not pure, it is not immune to being categorized and having branches from it. Actually, it's one of the few BASIC emotions that has soo many subcategories.

You've been served, now let everyone else reply with their thoughts while you think of something to try to throw out those links that I've posted. Good luck with that.

The rest is just him twisting love into a negative thing.

Someone has directly twisted my action, I know this for two reasons. One, Zimmah would be defending me if my action went through, two I did not target Vode.

The other option is that Vode and Zim are scum, but major conspiracy plots are not my thing in this game.

I will avoid claiming if at all possible, but I'll give some tidbits to pacify (hopefully) you. I can target at night, but my action has zero possible negative effect. If my role is known it will be nearly useless. I WILL claim if forced, but it is going to come with a very large "I told you so."

Just got back from a rather draining vacation, it will be a day or two before I am able to make a serious case of my own. I am caught up, but I must digest everything to come to decent conclusions.

Edocsil describes a role very much like my own, so I can only really agree.

My night action can do absolutely no harm to anyone, but can be very powerfull, especially if no one knows what my power is.

Anyway, jak is pushing this too far. vote jak

Ooo, feisty... I'm pushing it too far when many are agreeing with me (Or around me XD) that love is not what you claim it to be? I am neither saying you're confirmed town nor mafia. Sure I think love is most LIKELY town, but that's my point of view and this is Mafia, so love being mafia or 3rd party I am not going to rule out, especially with how overly defensive of your ROLE you are getting.

I'm just pointing this out as kind of contradictory to his overall behavior. Jak was the main guy spouting that love could be a negative emotion but when it comes down to why he's voting him, he keeps putting that as his tertiary reasoning, defending that "yeah love is probably town but it could be this".

If you get killed between now and the end of the game, to any "pure love" supporters out there and I'm still alive and you flip 3rd party or scum.. A big "I told you so" will await them.

Another thing I note about this comment is that you pretty much copycat what Edoc said "but can be very powerfull, especially if no one knows what my power is". I'm sure that can be said to quite a few roles. Like doc (who's now dead and was my first role thought on Love), Cop, Vig, Tracker, Watcher. All of those are powerful roles when going unnoticed by mafia, because then mafia will be careless with their actions. So the gambit on copycating Edoc's post isn't going to work on me.

I'm watching the others, but right now my focus is on you. You keep slipping up, and you've been here longer than I. You were in my first mafia game and you died early. You can't tell me they're noob mistakes, because if a newer person is noticing your slip ups.. then obviously you need to change something about your approach.

Until someone slips worse, someone brings forth incriminating evidence, or I hear an actual role claim from you. My vote lays on you bud.

4

Seems to be saying two not completely compatible things. mainly. "you're experienced. You shouldn't be making small mistakes." and "I've seen you slip up before".

You CLAIMED a town power? Am I missing something or are you just spewing things out without thinking? Slip perhaps?

Love is not a power, it's a name claim. Get your facts straight.

With your defense so far, my suspicions are only raising Zimmah.

Deadline is in 3 days, so we either pressure someone for a full claim by then *Cough* Zimmah *Cough* or we go into ANOTHER no lynch.

This is something that could have just been forgetfulness but yes Zimmah did say previously that he had been a power role even if he hadn't specified which.

Interesting. We got a web of lies from pressuring Zimmah, and Lord V thought it was for nothing

So, with this web of lies we have 3 possible liars.

Edoc ~ Could be lying about his role
Zimmah ~ Could be lying about not receiving the thing to tell Edoc was town, in which case he could have sent this to Vodean and they could be scum mates
Vodean ~ Could be lying about what Edoc's message says, he is saying he knows for a FACT Edoc is lying, although I see no facts.

I am going to note this as falsely attributing information and using false facts to make one's position appear stronger. jak is claiming that this came off of pressuring Zimmah when in actuality it was due more directly to vodean claiming to get a message that "Edoc was unhappy". Edoc (rightly IMO) defending Zimmah did press the issue a little but considering what Vodean had claimed. he was not going to get through the day without being forced to say something in regards to his role and why Vodean may have received his message.

So one or two of these three are lying. Looks like Saf and I uncovered a lie with pressure.

For my view, I am more inclined to believe Edoc, he outed himself truly and these roles ARE a bit messed up. If Zimmah is scum then so would Vodean, so I'm leaning toward a Vodean lynch today.

But until the deadline grows nearer and more pieces come together, my vote stays on Zimmah for a CLAIM. He's one of the three in the spot light atm, so continuing to ignore the pressure will only put him in a worse view than he is now.

Fasposted by 2 of the 3 in question. Claim Zimmah, claim and I may remove my vote from you. You're the one stalling time here.

I think this is kind of misleading too. Jak claims that Vodean is the most suspicious however that the vote should remain on Zimmah because zimmah is the one in the spotlight when Jak did as much if not more than anybody to make sure that was the case.

Soundman, you're now under pressure for a claim because of how Zimmah played, not totally because of the role claim. For all we know he could have been fake claiming. Sure a dictionary definition is good and fine but remember, this is mafia first and foremost so anything goes.

There is nothing illogical about believing someone is either scum or aren't what they appear to be. Now, to go through with my promise since you are putting off claiming Unvote, Vote Soundman

I'm sorry, but this prolonging of claiming is just getting me more and more suspicious about the entire claim. Is this Mafia or is this a "he told on me" fight, hmm? I'm not satisfied with only "Love" as a claim. Stall any more and I'm keeping my vote here due to extreme scummy behaviour, first from Zimmah, now with your refusal to cooperate with what a lot of people have been waiting for. I'm sure we have a role out there that can somehow protect you, Jailer, Busdriver, Watcher, if you're really soo important. Otherwise I see it as you being caught in a lie (Well Zimmah originally) and refusing to claim because you're afraid whatever you claim may be counter claimed by the real role owner.

Sure, it may be WIFOM and we may put you at more risk, but not coming out about it may turn away any protection roles to help you due to them perhaps not believing you. If you're a powerful role, chances are mafia already have a game plan to take you out at the moment. I'm not sure about Saf, but I want to know who I am protecting, not some mystical "I have to be town because of my role emotion, and I'm powerful so it's bad for town if I claim". No.. that's not going to fly by me.

Without going into detail I need to know what I'm dealing with when using my role. Do not let me use it blindly.

As Pancake pointed out a couple posts down from this one, this is as much a distraction from an investigation on the Edoc/vode as it is anything else.

I hate to break it to you, but there's an effective investigative claim to test right now. That needs to be handled first and foremost. I really don't get why you're keeping on this so much when there are bigger fish to fry (or rather, more direct fish).

Because, to me, Soundman is part of the web of lies. Edoc claims to have sent it to him, so he could be lying and sent it to Vodean to lie about (Well Zimmah did). You guys got the Vodean/Edoc part of this case, I think Saf and I got Soundman. The biggest fish we could fry with this is catch two mafia in one lie. Without Soundman having an alibi, he's at risk of being scum and lying about his role. For WIFOM sakes there may be no love and it could have been given to scum to fake claim.

So yes, there is an effective investigation going on Pancake. We have it narrowed down. The more we squeeze the more Zimmah/Soundman wont budge. Hence, they need added pressure to pop the information out.

More or less goes back to the false attribution of cause and event of facts presented earlier. One problem with the logic here is that. Soundman turning up scum wouldn't actually prove anything. Soundman turns up scum, then the reasons you have for voting vodean are wifom based on he may have coordinated a false result with Zimmah.

Either way, we win.

I'm a bit skeptical about your use of "we" after the Rolegift Mafia revelation. But Vodean is a good lynch candidate with all that we have.

Pointing out that you did have a tendency (with the exception of LoVo who laid pretty low yesterday. Fos Lovo for that) to go after those whose positions did seem contrary to your case on Soundman. Honestly, if I had felt the game was big enough to support it I would have thought you were a lyncher.

So, we have 3 outed roles and 3 name claims.

We have Edoc's Joy and Friendly Neighbor
We have Vodean's Curiosity and Tracker
We have Doom's Watcher
We have Soundman's Love

Correct me if I'm wrong in any of these spots but are there any counter claims? Doom sounds like Intelligence or whatever to me. But his emotion claim is yet to be seen and Soundman's role claim is yet to be seen. With Doc dead and less and less good roles for Love to be... I'm a bit worried of whether Love is really any type of power role for us. Cop, Vig, Roleblock are all doubtful to me.

Now we have DiM who decided to take a stop by Strike Wolf's body. Confirmation DiM?

Again another small issue but more evidence for some minor skimming.

we could always just lynch / and try to garner some info from the night....

Let someone in the night deal with him, for now we do what we can in the day time instead of wasting a perfectly good lynch.

Innocent, obviously.

Still, it was a valid question because it'd confirm you insane/sane once we prove you're a cop. Vodean, just to be DOUBLE sure, check Doom tonight and see who the cop decides to take a visit to...

Directing actions in a way that could severely limit our abilities as town. If Doom is mafia and he knows that Vodean is tracking him, mafia could send someone else to make the kill and he can worst case scenario claim he was roleblocked if he doesn't have an alternate action he can take. Town will have no proof going into tomorrow and we've effectively wasted a tracker investigation. We also can't say for sure there isn't a mafia busdriver (it's unlikely if we had a mafia busdriver 1 or 2 things probably would have happened differently) in this game who could have been effectively used to make Doom look like scum today.

Normally I would say directing actions isn't scummy, but I think being illogical is scummy. Get ready jak, our regularly scheduled argument is coming up. Why would you have the tracker waste an action following the cop when you know full well that the doctor is dead?

Basically, if I am alive tomorrow, I am not the cop. Vodean should use his action on scummier players.

Vote jak

Just because you're alive wont make you scummy, but tracking you can prove both roles. That being said I can't force anyone to do anything, I'm just suggesting what CAN be done since everyone else is giving up on the day when we have a pool of 2 inactives and Saf who isn't inactive yet but is getting there.

See above post for why this isn't necessarily true.

Ok. Fos saf for not addressing my jak case.

You have no case Doom, no matter how much you wish you were right you seriously have no case ON me for Safari to bother replying to. Just saying. I could be like "Oh Doom is trying to lynch anybody he can to get the day done and over with" <- Whether that's true or not. Then I could be like you and expect people to give that a serious analysis with no evidence backing it up.

As you can see, I disagree but I also think it goes farther than what Doom claims.

Why waste a Tracker result on something that is practically confirmed? If Doom isn't the cop then it'll come out eventually.

When's eventually? At the end of the game? We don't know if the mafia have fake claims and which roles are in place here. The fact that he visited a dead person coincidentally could mean he was cop who got a bad guess or he is mafia who took Jonty out in the night.

Also Soundman. You haven't claimed yet. This is the final day I believe for today. So without any better cases to go on Unvote, Vote Soundman.

Going to note, two no lynches in a row are bad but in this case it was a better alternative than laying the deciding vote on someone because they haven't fully claimed.

Getting off of jak. This post got me wondering as well:

ok, well considering the facts, i think a full claim from me is in order. Its pretty clear that im gonna die at this point. ok. i accept that. Im town tracker. I didnt want to do this either, because there were no guarantees that it was a killing action, but doom visited Strike last night. then edoc is caught guilty, as per the strange PM i got, and then Zimmah/soundman is guilty as per the role.

lynch me, but then please follow up. use this information wisely.

You had a tracker investigation on someone who visited the person that died that night, you had a result that you believed more or less meant that Edocsil was lying but your vote was on Zimmah.

As far as Edoc, I tend to believe him. the role is hard to fake claim sucessfully and his actions throughout the game are mostly in line with my thoughts.

I also strongly distrust Safari. I can't pin it as clearly as I can on Jak but I think he was doing the same thing that Jak was with the Love claim just not quite flying so high on the radar as Jak had been. he also twisted Doom's reason for voting Jak.