Final Fantasy VII Mafia - Shinra Corporation and Elena win

[edocsil]

Point 1: I suggest you research the proper definition of a straw man argument. You are using it incorrectly here.

I am a firm believer that you can find more in what people do and what they do not say then in how active they are. I also believe that inactivity, not totally, but a good bit, can lead you to peoples roles, whether they be town or mafia.

If your point was to make everyone active in this game, then that really hurts town. People not posting gives you something to go on. Forcing people to post takes this away. now everyone becomes active and no one can submarine. If no one can submarine, no one can be called out and pressured for submarining. If you can't pressure a person, they can't be cracked and caught.

Is this not a direct contradiction? Quote 1 says that activity is not a basis for a case. Quote 2 says no case can be made except against submariners.

Now it is time to LAL.

You still have not addressed the main point of where the cases are going to come from. If they are not forced, and nobody says anything, then someone has to volunteer or the game dies. If you can't build a case on jokevotes, then how does day 1 get started? I haven't changed anything about day 1 mechanics. All I did was notice a lag in activity, and force activity up again. The plan got sideswiped by the holidays, but for the most part it worked (for a bit).

I really don't appreciate your tone. It borders on insulting. Actually, it is insulting.

His opinion on the roll-call is both foolish and scummy. Talk only serves the town. There is some weight that can be given to the thoughts that the roll-call doesnt make the creator townish, but the effort given by the results benefit the town. It shows links between players and drastic changes could indicate links between scum. Information is what we need and to complain so vigorously about its collection is scummy.

That is all.

[Rodion]

Vote Count

1. shieldgenerator7
2. edocsil - shieldgenerator7
3. Commander9
4. DoomYoshi - wildwilliam
5. killboy108 - ???
6. strike wolf
7. Victor Sullivan
8. alt1978
9. VioIet - chapcrap, MOB Deadly, alt1978, dazza2008, drake_259 (L-8)
10. drake_259
11. maximumbandit
12. Djfireside - thehippo8
13. wildwilliam - DoomYoshi, edocsil
14. zimmah - Victor Sullivan
15. MOB Deadly
16. thehippo8 - Violet
17. agentcom - killboy108
18. new guy1
19. ghostly447
20. Master Bush - strike wolf
21. Dukasaur
22. Eldario
23. slowreactor -
24. dazza2008 - Commander9
25. chapcrap

Remember to unvote before you vote again.

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Soft deadline at january 5th, noon (EST).

[VioIet]

I am at L-8, and the deadline is in three days. If its the case that the person with the most votes by the deadline is lynched, then I should surely claim.

I do not wish to be replaced in this game, and I will try to participate. Of course, I am behind as usual. I received two prods from Rodion, and in both, I informed him that I would be busy. Not so much from the holidays, but more or less because I was moving to a new house.

And yes, the games that I am modding are my #1 priority, however, if you were truly attentive to Stool Pigeon Mafia, you would notice that I had some inactivity in that one as well (went five days without posting).

I think it would be a bit uncanny for me to say that I find wildwilliam suspicious. Doomyoshi made a good case against him, but I think it is better for me to address the case against myself.

Basically- yes I was inactive, and I missed my role call. Before doomyoshi made the case on wildwilliam, I found Victor slightly suspicious. It wasn't enough to think that he was scummy. I just wanted to know if anyone could decode his messages.

The irony is that I had posted shortly before it was my turn in the role call, but that post didn't have much sustenance. Then my next post was about agentcom- which had nothing to do with the game. I believe that's when I started to receive a flurry of votes.

But once again, I don't mind the votes, and I will claim if needed.

[Rodion]

If its the case that the person with the most votes by the deadline is lynched

It isn't. If nobody has 13 votes by the deadline, a no-lynch occurs.

[chapcrap]

I buy Vio's explanation. unvote

[dazza2008]

I buy what she said too so I will unvote.

I found wildwilliams reply to dooms case a bit scummy and I do not understand why he is so against the rollcall. I agree with what everyone has said that it could be doom trying to appear townish but either way it got the game moving and people talking. We need people to be talking to gather any sort of information.

Vote wildwilliam

[slowreactor]

vote DoomYoshi I will explain:

While I don't fully understand the reasons that wildwilliam is opposed to the roll call (a lot of fluff in his talk) I think it might be the same as my reason for opposing it. The roll call, as I said earlier, while it does try to force everyone to be active, it forces everyone to be active IN THE SAME WAY. That is, it makes noobs appear scummy because they can't make the same good arguments pros can, especially since their arguments will be compared against everyone else's. Doom, as a pro, should understand this (at least I hope), and the only reasons I see him doing this is to make him look more active than he is, and to be able to set up other people as scummy.

While Doom has been making a decent amount of posts since the roll call, it mostly consists of defending the rollcall validity and attacking wildwilliam, the main opponent of his rollcall. Combined with the fact that I never see any rollcalls like this in other games really makes this one stike out as unusual.

Gotta run, will post more when I get back.

[chapcrap]

vote DoomYoshi I will explain:

While I don't fully understand the reasons that wildwilliam is opposed to the roll call (a lot of fluff in his talk) I think it might be the same as my reason for opposing it. The roll call, as I said earlier, while it does try to force everyone to be active, it forces everyone to be active IN THE SAME WAY. That is, it makes noobs appear scummy because they can't make the same good arguments pros can, especially since their arguments will be compared against everyone else's. Doom, as a pro, should understand this (at least I hope), and the only reasons I see him doing this is to make him look more active than he is, and to be able to set up other people as scummy.

While Doom has been making a decent amount of posts since the roll call, it mostly consists of defending the rollcall validity and attacking wildwilliam, the main opponent of his rollcall. Combined with the fact that I never see any rollcalls like this in other games really makes this one stike out as unusual.

Gotta run, will post more when I get back.

I understand what you're saying here, but I'm just not sure I buy into the fact that Doom did it to try and paint a noob as scummy...

And, for the record, I've seen something like a roll call before.

[Rodion]

Vote Count

1. shieldgenerator7
2. edocsil - shieldgenerator7
3. Commander9
4. DoomYoshi - wildwilliam, slowreactor
5. killboy108 - ???
6. strike wolf
7. Victor Sullivan
8. alt1978
9. VioIet - MOB Deadly, alt1978, drake_259 (L-10)
10. drake_259
11. maximumbandit
12. Djfireside - thehippo8
13. wildwilliam - DoomYoshi, edocsil, dazza2008 (L-10)
14. zimmah - Victor Sullivan
15. MOB Deadly
16. thehippo8 - Violet
17. agentcom - killboy108
18. new guy1
19. ghostly447
20. Master Bush - strike wolf
21. Dukasaur
22. Eldario
23. slowreactor -
24. dazza2008 - Commander9
25. chapcrap

Remember to unvote before you vote again.

With 25 alive, it takes 13 to lynch.

Soft deadline at january 5th, noon (EST).

[MoB Deadly]

vote DoomYoshi I will explain:

While I don't fully understand the reasons that wildwilliam is opposed to the roll call (a lot of fluff in his talk) I think it might be the same as my reason for opposing it. The roll call, as I said earlier, while it does try to force everyone to be active, it forces everyone to be active IN THE SAME WAY. That is, it makes noobs appear scummy because they can't make the same good arguments pros can, especially since their arguments will be compared against everyone else's. Doom, as a pro, should understand this (at least I hope), and the only reasons I see him doing this is to make him look more active than he is, and to be able to set up other people as scummy.

While Doom has been making a decent amount of posts since the roll call, it mostly consists of defending the rollcall validity and attacking wildwilliam, the main opponent of his rollcall. Combined with the fact that I never see any rollcalls like this in other games really makes this one stike out as unusual.

Gotta run, will post more when I get back.

I understand what you're saying here, but I'm just not sure I buy into the fact that Doom did it to try and paint a noob as scummy...

And, for the record, I've seen something like a roll call before.

First off - unvote - vio came back and gave a reasonable explanation.

Second I see what you are saying slow too as chap said, but I didn't get that feeling from Doom. I am in favor of the roll call, given the level of activity here. It helps regulate the game and makes players HAVE an opinion instead of submarining giving us no evidence in the future.

It is a good Day 1 activity I feel, and if Doom kept this up throughout multiple days, I am pretty sure we would catch on, seeing through the fog.

[DoomYoshi]

vote DoomYoshi I will explain:

While I don't fully understand the reasons that wildwilliam is opposed to the roll call (a lot of fluff in his talk) I think it might be the same as my reason for opposing it. The roll call, as I said earlier, while it does try to force everyone to be active, it forces everyone to be active IN THE SAME WAY. That is, it makes noobs appear scummy because they can't make the same good arguments pros can, especially since their arguments will be compared against everyone else's. Doom, as a pro, should understand this (at least I hope), and the only reasons I see him doing this is to make him look more active than he is, and to be able to set up other people as scummy.

While Doom has been making a decent amount of posts since the roll call, it mostly consists of defending the rollcall validity and attacking wildwilliam, the main opponent of his rollcall. Combined with the fact that I never see any rollcalls like this in other games really makes this one stike out as unusual.

Gotta run, will post more when I get back.

So your problem is that I am trying to set up other people as scummy? I am pretty sure that is the point of the game. If you mean that I am deliberately trying to paint someone who is innocent as scummy, then I need a longer explanation.

I see what you mean about some newer players perhaps not being as good at arguing. However, all I am doing is ensuring that all players are participating. Just because somebody is new doesn't mean they get a free pass forever. I have a personal policy to not lynch n00bs on day 1. I do this specifically so they get a chance to see how a typical day/night cycle runs. However, the easiest way to learn about arguing is to participate in it, and they are going to need practice or they will never get better.

This is one of the common fallacies in mafia unfortunately. It is easy to forget the fact that just because someone is illogical does not mean they are scum. The community must be ever vigilant and wonder: does this flaw in argument point to the perpetrator as scum? In the case of wildwilliam, it does not. Yes, he is illogical. Yes, he is rude and insulting. Does this mean he is scum? No.

I needed a case to get conversation moving. I noted who spoke for each side. I also noted that the vast majority of the populace was silent on the issue after two days.

The thing I hate about deadlines is how easy they are for the scum to abuse. All it takes is a: just checking in, will post something later here and a 1-liner there and then the day is gone, with no lynch. However, with 25 players I suppose it is bound to happen.

Unvote

[slowreactor]

I see. But wouldn't asking the mod for a prod be a simpler way? I know we've had prods, and I feel that the people who don't post constructively after prods should give the same vibe as those who don't post for rollcalls. Plus, let's assume everyone posts, and it takes half a day for the next person to post. I doubt we would have the time for everyone to post and then analyze everything before the day ends.

Anyhow, that's the end of my rant on the system, and I'll unvote, but I am still not a fan of a forced, uniform system.

[DoomYoshi]

I think we should look for a replacement for shield.

[Rodion]

Drunkmonkey has replaced Shield.

[strike wolf]

unvote vote vio

Sorry for being out...will be more active after the first...hollidays are crazy. If there were a vote however to vote "IKEA"...I would certainly make a motion to start that bandwagon. I have lost more hours to that damn store saving 20 bucks than i've put into this game in this last month. I think it is my wife's passive aggressive attack against this site.

Providing reasoning for votes is for wimps. Just vote whoever everyone else is voting.

As far as wild is concerned, I was flipping back and forth but as of right now I'm not convinced he is scum. The thing that strikes me about it is the apparent contradictionm Nor do I feel doomyoshi is scum thouggh I do find it slightly interesting that he pulled a 180 about wild.

Not sure there's much else to comment on.

[Commander9]

Drunkmonkey has replaced Shield.

Since I've asked for you to put on this soft deadline... Could you now push it back? It seems people actually are commenting right now and we are heading somewhere... I hope.

[chapcrap]

Drunkmonkey has replaced Shield.

Since I've asked for you to put on this soft deadline... Could you now push it back? It seems people actually are commenting right now and we are heading somewhere... I hope.

Agreed with that. Especially with a replacement coming in.

[Rodion]

If you can reach page 32 (without spam!) by the end of the deadline, I'll postpone it until january 12th, noon (EST).

[Commander9]

If you can reach page 32 (without spam!) by the end of the deadline, I'll postpone it until january 12th, noon (EST).

Please, please tell me you are kidding... You said it yourself that you've only put in a deadline so it would spur activity... And it has, so why back out now?

[new guy1]

:O i was thinking the same thing when he said that and i looked at what page we were on. thats 3 more pages to cover in less then 2 days or so... and my school starts back up tomorrow :S...

[Rodion]

That's like 45 posts in 36 hours. Totally viable with 25 potential contributors.

[chapcrap]

That's like 45 posts in 36 hours. Totally viable with 25 potential contributors.

I agree and he's right. That seems like a reasonable deadline to me.

I think that wild going a little crazy does have some scumminess to it. He was not really backed into a corner and could have easily just brushed it off instead.

[maximumbandit]

It is easy to forget the fact that just because someone is illogical does not mean they are scum. The community must be ever vigilant and wonder: does this flaw in argument point to the perpetrator as scum?

I don't have strong feelings either was as to whether Doom's defense of WildWilliam is valid or not - but I do think that this is a good point, and have seen the "their argument is dumb, they must be scum!" thing backfire enough times, even in the few games I've played (3) to see a need for caution in a circumstance where this might be a factor.

[strike wolf]

My overall opinion is not different from the majority. THere are indeed 25 people in this game but one of them has been replaced and there are at least a few others who have not shown back up from the Holidays. If no other reason I feel the deadline should be extended to give Drunk some time to catch up with the game. Beyond that, this game is already moving as fast if not faster than the majority of mafia games right now. I believe that in and of itself should award the advantage to give us some time to discuss what we want to do especially as the holidays did represent a break in the action which has made the shortened deadline a problem for us.

[drunkmonkey]

Here to confirm - I'll catch up on the thread & get involved tomorrow.