Once Upon A Killer Mafia (14/17) A Writers Block:Endgame

[Streaker]

Virus, can you explain the inconsistencies that I was writing about a few posts earlier concerning Ultra? Maybe you have a different insight that could explain a few things. I'm not willing to believe you agreed to calling each other scummy to 'avoid having to claim lovers' especially.

Furthermore, if i'm getting it correctly, you have the choice to save Ultra from a death. Any death, including lynch? But you have the choice, yes? This would be another contradiction on Ultra's account, stating virus would die if we lynch Ultra.

So my last question, virus, would you let an Ultra lynch happen and not save him? This is the only option to clear this out, because if we lynch you instead Ultra dies regardless (otherwise seriously flawed lover concept).

[virus90]

yes i could just let him die, but i said i would take the fall for him. Maybe in some twisted universe like this it unlocks something we dont know or anything, my only ability in this game is to die for him, so im ok with that being "my purpose" in this game. and maybe after all lovers generally die together, we dont know that, maybe thats a way to get out of that.
i dont know what other purpose i have besides dying for him.

and yes i know i am town and not 100% sure if he is, thats how our conversation started in our QT aswell but the mod saw it and confirmed to us that we are same allignement so i trust the mod in that way else it would be twisted.

WOWWWWWW when i think about it 3 pairs of lovers CAN be explained. I am gonna call it: RECRUITER/CULT
it would explain why we are all the same allignement and why the mod confirmed that, that even makes it possible for all 3 lovers pairs are town.
its a genius cruel twist, at the start all lovers are town and a recruiter can change that.
to me this would make sense, its just speculation but it would be so perfectly cruel <3 i would see rishead doing something like that.

fped by ultra:
my response: point 1: our communication is not ideal since we are like day and night apart in timezones, we are like never around at the same time. we did not agree on calling eachother scummy, ultra announced i am gonna call you scummy in the QT and did, at which point i made a joke about that in the forum: the post where i say "i get why people believe why he is scummy etc" as a response to show my surprise, cause even in my opinion the whole me framing him is far fetched.
point 2: you understand correctly i have a choice, he stated that since we agreed i would take the fall, see also comments in this post about that.
point 3: if we agree in the topic on that, and he is ok 2, since i said i would take the fall i rather take the fall i dont like making promises and then not deliver my end. (sidenote: i still dont nescesarily think lovers die together, for points made previously: 6 lovers, my role, mod being vague about it)

[virus90]

lol when i thought about that twisted mod confirming we are the same allignement the possibility just strook me... cult would be so perfectly twisted while not telling something untrue about the allignement at that time.

[Streaker]

Did you even stop and think about posting that? It's one of the most sick twists i'd have seen in a game... To even bring it up in the midst of this discussion... I ask you to give us your thoughts on Ultra's play, and the things I pointed out, and you bring a story about how there are lovers waiting to be recruited? Amazing. (If it turns out to be true I will apologize ofcourse, if I survive the brain bleed to follow).

[virus90]

well it just came to me when i was typing, and it actually made sense to me. besides, i am already on the hotseat (or ultra but thats the same to me), so why wouldnt i throw the speculation out. i mean a scum lover pair doesnt make that much sense either, you kind of have to add another scum because of the risk of losing 2 at the same time is pretty real, advantages that we have like a QT, i assume scum have them to, so for scum to have a lovers couple would probably need balancing out in either extra scum or more powerfull scum roles.
i had this epiphany, and so i decided to write it down. and i still think its a viable option. who would have expected 3 pairs of lovers? why wouldt it be so impossible that there is something i described?

further i replied to your 3 points right? its in the same post in which i suggested this (ridiculous or brilliant) thought of mine.

[StorrZerg]

@ultra/virus need to start talking about who should be the lynch.

Since the only reason that makes sense to me, as to why ultra would want virus to die to "prove himself" is if he gains power when virus dies. Since he has claimed no additional powers. (and if all the other lovers have powers...) Now this theory makes more sense, if the other lovers can confirm their powers interact at all with each other/ benefit each other. And if this is the case, its more hiding of your claim...

cause atm ultra for you to be "confirmed" town with virus death saving you, i can't see it doing that much good. I know i'd still value the opinions, and views of several people over yours, as i imagine others would to.

So if you keep insisting, that you should be the lynch, i will keep pushing that virus dies over you.

@VIRUS FIND SCUM i know you can scum hunt, and you are not doing it 1 bit this game... one of the reasons you are scum in my books. maybe the deal with ultra being his lover muddled things up. yet i don't see why that would change how you play that much...

[StorrZerg]

why does it always feel that you are so behind in the game....

@Storr's response to my post: This is why I hate in-post responses to some extent, because they're really hard to respond to themselves. In broad points, I think our lines on what defines "mechanical" are in different places, as are our interpretations of the extent to which mechanical discussion can be indicative. That itself could become considered mechanical discussion, so I'm not gonna delve too deep there lest I risk of being accused of starting another.
its probably true. I think the reads by themselves that you develped off what i call mechanics, can be ok, when died with something else. but that alone i can't relate to.

ok, so then it's filler in your post. Not to mention I'm sure no one thought it was a joke.

Sorry, I'll include these guys more in the future.
you probably should. it looked like an incredibly late comment, to a subject that had resolved itself, + add in following posts that seemed to repeat the same behavior made it look worse.
You responses to my reads are basically that there are two sides to each coin. And that's true. But saying that interpretation could go one way or the other doesn't really generate anything.
ok? you recall when people pushed against my reads? i kept fighting, kept trying to make people see the way i saw things. Or maybe my read was misguided, so now i've cleared up a wrong impulse who knows. Seems more like an reason to not continue your pressure.
Moving on from there:

You bring up the joke vote a lot, that happened a long time ago in the day. Basing you reads of that far ago goes against what you state as reading the game as you go along as you seem to be still using information from early in the day to relate to what is happening now.

The joke was directly addressed by Storr, so it warranted response. Outside of that, it is much involved in the reads on certain players, such as Anam, whose first post had a great deal to do with that. My point really is that it's moot and we shouldn't keep talking about it or reading into it. As for using early day info (and in Anam's case that's basically all there is), you wanted reads on particular people and that requires research/citations to double check that I'm refering to the correct person. Plus, the idea is we get the whole field of info about everyone and have that for reference. Isn't that why the "no-edit" rule is in place?

On Ultra's claim: I'll agree with aage that there is a tendency for opposite alignment lovers to be a thing, but that also proves to be untrue as often as it is actually true. Which kinda blows. 1:1 town to mafia is typically a good trade for town, but the question is is that worth the gamble? For ultra's part, I doubt he'd be the scum side of such an arrangement. That said, it's also the type of claim that would spook anyone who might dare challenge it. Oh, but that's a whole other dance...
Is it a thing? who else has done it besides my got game? and why are you talking about opposite alignments. Fairly certain all lover pairs claimed to know for certain they are all the same alignment.

Hmmm I am a lover, and my partner and I are confirmed town. And no, you are not my partner....

Scum slip? Tell me why the hell would you pick lovers to fake claim in a group this large of non vanilla? Did you really think there would not be a pair of lovers to counter claim you?

Oh, now THAT is interesting...
This is the big thing, that makes me feel you are really behind in this game. tons of discussion has been had about lovers, and it seems you are just looking into it, with out reading the developments

@PCM, I can understand you feeling i'm too agressive on Ultra, but don't accuse me of going for an 'easy' case. It's anything but easy as nobody is giving a crap to lynch him, while i'm trying to persuade everyone to lynch him.

With the situation as it is, I don't feel we can let go of Ultra's claim (and the counterclaim that followed). Would there be 2 pairs of lovers in this game? Unlikely, not impossible. Mafia would never counterclaim here (I think).

"Easy" is relative, to be sure. My concern is less about the difficulty and more about pounding the hammer.

As for your second question, no. Two sets of lovers is bastard modding unless BOTH of the lovers have a scum pairing, which is bastard modding the other way.
again its even more clear this post is being written as you read the game, you haven't caught up to the discussion, and i really don't think you are adding anything productive with this, it just looks like a big fluffy post

Also, if you believe it's unlikely that there are two pairs of lovers, it's more unlikely that there are 3... And no neither Ultra or Ziv is my lover. Ultra seems very scummy for claiming that he is a lover first. Ziv gets townie points for coming forward to counterclaim.

...

'Kay, I need to Unvote and take a step back here for a minute...
yeah
So, some analysis for a moment. There are 6 lovers now in the mix:

1. Ultra/Virus
2. Zivel/???
3. DD/???

Of those six, the likelihood that at least one of them is mafia is very high just based on numbers alone (think: if we had 6 people whose deaths were tied together and they were all town, we'd be boned from the get-go). I think it behooves us then to roll the dice lynch at least one set of lovers today because we probably have like a 1/3 chance of finding a scum in the process, which is decent odds. The downside here is guessing wrong, in which case it's at worst a 6:1 trade. That's reeeally bad. Also, we're basically going to have 4 deaths by tomorrow if we do that, but at this point we're probably going to have 3 deaths minimum anyway.
yet we are not even certain lovers die as pairs, since none of them are sure if they both die if one dies...

So virus doesnt believe he dies with his lover. DD seems confident he does. Virus says hes been talking to his lover today, DD says they can only communicate at night. DD says he has another ability. Virus dodged the question. Did I miss anything?

Don't think so. It's awful fishy.

Unvote dd
Lynch Ultra
Best course of action.

Of course, this is assuming we have a bg to keep me alive til tomorrow.

nopenopenope



I think you're the scum and you're totes bussing your townie lover. Which becomes a strange conundrum. Actually, his entire power makes no sense. Are you lovers or not? Because him saving you would make you die anyway, the way you tell it.
can you explain pcm how they could be different alignments, when they are certain they are the same alignment?
God, this is totally baffling. Some consistency at the very least would be nice...

Want to hear more from others. PCM what is your read on all this?

Oh, how I love being picked on.
This isn't picking on, and this shouldn't be a surprise. YOu had been under pressure from him, you made a good post, relieving pressure, and so further involvment of you shouldn't be a surprise.

Ultra wants to self sacrifice himself to prove himself, thats retarded if hes mafia or 3rd party.

The first CC might be the most scummy of the 3 if there is any,
DD counter counter claiming is the most towny.

Either that or he's crazy like a fox. It's very possible he's taking a huge gamble here/doesn't care about virus.

Virus can only take the bullet himself the first time I die. Essentially he can only revive me.

So if you have no value, what use is it to keep you around? Or rather, why should we sacrifice another townie if you are our only reward for it? Also, how do you feel about the fact that the more you throw your partner under the bus, the more you paint a target on his back should he live through the night? I'm pretty certain there's more to this than you're actually telling us.

I can agree with the last statement, he def makes virus look more and more like the lynch with this talk.


Overall this post is very weird from pcm. Sure it shows him posting while reading the game, and updating his thoughts. but nothing is new from this post. its almost like giant filler. He has missed key points about the lvoers claiming to be same aligned, and many of the questions he has has all ready been asked. I see no conclusion from the situation as well, or what direction he wants to go about this. (considering he unvoted )

I also asked pcm to make a case/push someone else. i didn't care if he kept his vote on ultra or not. He didn't follow through. Sure he didn't say he would, but if we look at how he stands in the game, we don't know where he stands. If we don't lynch a lover, who would we lynch? For all the ground he gained in the post that satisfied myself, he just back peddled a great deal with this post...

[StorrZerg]

@zivel, now i'd love to know who your partner is. since i do think you are town, how ever i understand why its probably for the best to not announce that yet.

anamainiacks is no longer a strong town read. He is probably still "leaning town" , he no longer "bleeds town"

While i really liked his one large first post, his activity level is abysmal, and his care for who is lynched doesn't seem to be on the radar. I can agree his stance/ read on the situations make sense, how ever he isn't trying to do anything productive in the sense of lynching a mafia.

DD seems to have the most inconsistency out of the lovers. as for what they have claimed and what he has. Out side of his lover claim.

2. @dd- Did you get this same mod confirmation for you and your partner being both town aligned?

No. I also did not ask, however I'm town and I read my partner as town as well

well now..

I've received confirmation that lovers are the same alignment

Ok, with that all lovers have claimed same alignment, thus any speculation about 1 mafia 1 lover, seems grossly misguided and a waste of time to discuss.

AoG could be scum. havn't really looked at him all game that much. Also i don't understand his logic that we have a 50% of lynching scum, by lynching either zivel or dd.. Part of his logic is assuming a scum could be in the lover pair , when (zivel has claimed both are confirmed town to each other) and im pretty sure dd did as well.

@Crasp, bit more activity from you would be nice, you seem to have fallen off since the start as well..



Lover talk. If i had to peg a group to being mafia right now. It would be dd + who ever. (no day talk is strange since the other 2 have it) I'd def put zivel as town with who ever he has.
And i'd put ultra/virus as 3rd party. (maybe zivel group is switched with ultra) But I'd be fairly certain that ultra is hiding something about his power if virus is lynched.

[Whatsausage]

since i dont want to givve any reason for a modkill im gonna summarize only the important stuff

so my full claim:
name: Yuuki Asuna,
ability: shield lover
explanation ability: if ultra dies i get a pm and i can choose to revive him at cost of my own live. (this is for both day and night kills)

Okay, but why would you do that? Ultra has no further use since he has no power role and you are just as much confirmed townie as he would be. Stuff like empathy aside, why would you get yourself killed if it doesnt help you or your game goals? You know you are a townie! Do you have a death wish?


I fear what pcm said... either Ultra is throwing you under the bus, or you're just both lying.

The fact that he other two lovers have inconsistent stories does not help. Rish mak
ing a point of being vague also points to foul play, though I'd rather not use that argument.

aage makes a good point here, why would you off yourself when you know your alignment 100% no doubt about it? A promise? While wanting to keep a promise is understandable, why did you make the promise in the first place? Ultra claims to not have any other power, so he isn't any more valuable to town than you are.

The only thing that is adding up with what we know in my mind is that ultra is scum, virus would flip town, but his WC is for ultra to live to the end or for ultra to win. Having the "same" win condition would make them the same "alignment" even if one shows scum and one shows town right? I think that is why ultra and virus are so willing to have virus take the lynch in ultra's place, so willing to the point of ultra voting himself. This would be a way for ultra to be "confirmed" town, when he may very well not be.

@zivel, now i'd love to know who your partner is. since i do think you are town, how ever i understand why its probably for the best to not announce that yet.

I don't understand the purpose of this statement. I think we all want to know, but you say yourself that it isn't the best yet. It seems a little off to me to bring it up and shoot it down like that. Why bring it up at all?

So this is back a couple pages, but here I am with comments/concerns DD.
Previously you read anark, myself, and aage as scum with no reasons provided. And now in this post, anark has become primarily neutral, aage has become town, and I have stayed the same while you have added AOG, ultra, and virus to the scum list.
So what are reasons for the original scum reads, the changes, and the current scum reads. (You can also give reasons for your town reads)

The original reads were my thoughts on like half the game at the moment. I felt like I needed to post something after I was prodded, after reading through the rest of the posts I changed my mind.
As for Ultra and virus... Did you skim through everything? They have been read as scum for numerous reasons: poor reads, weird votes, calling each other scum and then coming out as lovers... Do I need to say more? I will go back and quote everything if necessary, but if you read through the last 4ish pages you will find everything on them.

Alright I was really looking for what changed your mind, and actually I thought about putting "these may be a bit more obvious" behind ultra and virus, but now you have at least clarified that they are your thoughts. So no, you don't need to say any more on them, but perhaps you could share why you lessened on anark and made aage town?

[StorrZerg]

eah more so that i'd have another town person when he does out. since, he claims they have been quite active in their convos. Thus lots of information being said, when they do out, this kind of thing imo is hard to fake. its alot easier to state "hey we had different time zones so didnt say much" or just not use it at all. + i wanted to give my stance on him and his partner, even though its someone i don't know yet.


@what, where do you want to go today? lynch a lover? or someone else? if someone else who?
i like the point you bring up about virus/ultra situation. similar to my view, i can't see why we would lynch ultra and let virus die if we have any doubt about them it should indicate we have to lynch virus first.

[TheForgivenOne]

Also remember that I get lynched (and js we lose another if I get lynched... one with an important role...) if I have the most votes by deadline, since plurality seems to apply.

since i dont want to givve any reason for a modkill im gonna summarize only the important stuff

so my full claim:
name: Yuuki Asuna,
ability: shield lover
explanation ability: if ultra dies i get a pm and i can choose to revive him at cost of my own live. (this is for both day and night kills)

This still bothers the living hell out of me. Ultra made it apparent that you had a very good role that was important. So what you're telling me is your amazing role is just to save Ultra?

[dd515087]

DD seems to have the most inconsistency out of the lovers. as for what they have claimed and what he has. Out side of his lover claim.

2. @dd- Did you get this same mod confirmation for you and your partner being both town aligned?

No. I also did not ask, however I'm town and I read my partner as town as well

well now..

I've received confirmation that lovers are the same alignment

I didn't have the confirmation that Ziv and Ultra claimed to have so I asked the mod myself and was told lovers are the same alignment
Ok, with that all lovers have claimed same alignment, thus any speculation about 1 mafia 1 lover, seems grossly misguided and a waste of time to discuss.

AoG could be scum. havn't really looked at him all game that much. Also i don't understand his logic that we have a 50% of lynching scum, by lynching either zivel or dd.. Part of his logic is assuming a scum could be in the lover pair , when (zivel has claimed both are confirmed town to each other) and im pretty sure dd did as well.
this is correct
...
Lover talk. If i had to peg a group to being mafia right now. It would be dd + who ever. (no day talk is strange since the other 2 have it) I'd def put zivel as town with who ever he has.
In my role pm it explains that I have to visit my lover in secret (at night) because of some bad history between our families. So it makes sense that we don't have day talk
And i'd put ultra/virus as 3rd party. (maybe zivel group is switched with ultra) But I'd be fairly certain that ultra is hiding something about his power if virus is lynched.

[dd515087]

The only thing that is adding up with what we know in my mind is that ultra is scum, virus would flip town, but his WC is for ultra to live to the end or for ultra to win. Having the "same" win condition would make them the same "alignment" even if one shows scum and one shows town right? I think that is why ultra and virus are so willing to have virus take the lynch in ultra's place, so willing to the point of ultra voting himself. This would be a way for ultra to be "confirmed" town, when he may very well not be.

i like the point you bring up about virus/ultra situation. similar to my view, i can't see why we would lynch ultra and let virus die if we have any doubt about them it should indicate we have to lynch virus first.

Absolutely agree with both of these
unvote Ultra
vote virus

[virus90]

well as i pointed out in my previous post i got the feeling that me dying might somehow be a part of it, dont know if it unlocks something or it is the only way out of 2 lovers dying together. So maybe indeed when i die ultra dies 2, i dont know. fact is if ultra is lynched i can decide to save him.
its also what i offered cause i was very frustrated yesterday (that should be quite obvious from the posts yesterday), so for me. as a towny believing my partner is also town, its towny to do that (for the reasons just stated).
if we all agree and most importantly ultra agrees that we decide to let him die and not for me to catch a bullet im fine 2. it indeed doesnt matter if you have the one useless town or the other... but since i said i would, and i think it might be beneficial somehow for me to die instead of him, since i kind of see it as my purpose, i prefer to jump the bullet if ultra gets lynched or NK'ed

[virus90]

just imagine for a moment, before i posted my first things, ultra was already the center of attention.
knowing what my ability was, before my game even began i was already kind of doomed to die.
for the 2nd game in a row not making it to day 2, might just not be the best experience you can have.
there for my cynical approach and my indifference who dies.
i still hope somewhere we come to senses and decide otherwise but i feel dead before the game even began for me. maybe if you view it from my point of view you get where my actions and decisions come from.

[StorrZerg]

Ultra is never lynched today. It's 100% you over him.
It absolutely does town no good if you both are town. Since we lose a town on "seeing if it's true " and if it is true, we really lack leads on day 2...
If you are mafia, why would we follow your suggestions on ultra lynch.

If you ever have the option to die for ultra you are forced to take it. Since not taking it would leave doubt in this whole mess.


So you need to start presenting something else...

[StorrZerg]

Stop hoping something happens virus and do something. ..

[TheForgivenOne]

well as i pointed out in my previous post i got the feeling that me dying might somehow be a part of it, dont know if it unlocks something or it is the only way out of 2 lovers dying together. So maybe indeed when i die ultra dies 2, i dont know. fact is if ultra is lynched i can decide to save him.
its also what i offered cause i was very frustrated yesterday (that should be quite obvious from the posts yesterday), so for me. as a towny believing my partner is also town, its towny to do that (for the reasons just stated).
if we all agree and most importantly ultra agrees that we decide to let him die and not for me to catch a bullet im fine 2. it indeed doesnt matter if you have the one useless town or the other... but since i said i would, and i think it might be beneficial somehow for me to die instead of him, since i kind of see it as my purpose, i prefer to jump the bullet if ultra gets lynched or NK'ed

Yeah, but it sounds like you are unsure, and Ultra was completely sure you had some certain powerful role. Just seems inconsistent to me.

[Army of GOD]

Ultra and Virus seem the least possible for scum? Really?
I've had confirmation from the mod that lovers are the same alignment (He could have been referring to my lover pair specifically, but they way it was worded makes me believe that it refers to all). Why would I falsely claim something that the mod has told me? Anyone could easily ask the mod the same question and receive the answer themselves...
You are now a very scummy read on my list

I'm not saying you're wrong. Here's what I gathered from the lover pairs so far (I could be wrong and I'm going to re-read after I post this):

1. Ultra (doesn't have a power/maybe could save virus? I don't know, it's been confusing)/virus (can sacrifice self to save Ultra) - now think about it: if virus can sacrifice himself to save ultra, why the hell would that power make sense if he was scum and we KNOW that lover pairs are confirmed same alignment? If we lynch ultra, virus saves him and dies and is revealed scum, then we know for a fact that ultra is scum too. Which means we'll have lynched 2 scum in the first two days and unless there's an inordinate amount of scum (say like 6/17 which seems very high) that seems like awful, terrible modding.

2. Zivel (has power that we don't know of yet)/????? (has power that we don't know of yet) - Zivel says they're both confirmed town...ok...why should we believe that? I believe that lovers in this game are the same alignment but why should we take Zivel's word for it that they're both town?

3. dd (has power that we don't know of yet)/????? (has power that we don't know of yet) - like other two pairs, are same alignment, but no other information really

also I think we're leaning right now that lovers, going against the classic lover model, DO NOT die together. I just trust ultra/virus more because they were both willing to claim lovers together (Which means that if one of them are scum, they're both scum) instead of us just lynching ultra and not knowing who his other half was. Here are our possibilities in terms of lynching the lovers right now:

(red means he turns out scum, blue means he turns out town after death)
1. Lynch ultra - virus dies, reveals scum, ultra is scum too/virus dies, reveals town, ultra is town too
2. Lynch virus - virus dies, reveals scum, ultra is scum too/virus dies, reveals town, ultra is town too
3. Lynch zivel - zivel dies, reveals scum, ????? is scum too/virus dies, reveals town, ????? is town too
4. Lynch virus - virus dies, reveals scum, ????? is scum too/virus dies, reveals town, ????? is town too

the point I'm poorly making is that if ultra and virus were both scum, it would be a horrifically bad play to come out as lovers. I just feel as if zivel and dd are protecting their lovers' identities because they know that lovers are same alignment and they don't want to screw their other half over.


also the fact that ultra/virus got counter claimed means nothing to me. zivel and dd could've just done it thinking "oh, I am scum but I am a lover pair also, maybe I can convince the town I am non-scum by counter claiming".

[pancakemix]

yes i could just let him die, but i said i would take the fall for him. Maybe in some twisted universe like this it unlocks something we dont know or anything, my only ability in this game is to die for him, so im ok with that being "my purpose" in this game. and maybe after all lovers generally die together, we dont know that, maybe thats a way to get out of that.
i dont know what other purpose i have besides dying for him.

Well, let no one accuse you of not being a man of your word, but do you honestly believe you can trust him at this point? He's very vocally be shopping your life in exchange for his own skin.

WOWWWWWW when i think about it 3 pairs of lovers CAN be explained. I am gonna call it: RECRUITER/CULT
it would explain why we are all the same allignement and why the mod confirmed that, that even makes it possible for all 3 lovers pairs are town.
its a genius cruel twist, at the start all lovers are town and a recruiter can change that.
to me this would make sense, its just speculation but it would be so perfectly cruel <3 i would see rishead doing something like that.

This just went straight-up tinfoil hat.

why does it always feel that you are so behind in the game....

Maybe it's because I read as I go, not before I post (like I've said umpteen thousand times)? And that there are things to respond to pages back?

you probably should. it looked like an incredibly late comment, to a subject that had resolved itself, + add in following posts that seemed to repeat the same behavior made it look worse.

God, you are a completely humorless fellow, aren't you?

Overall this post is very weird from pcm. Sure it shows him posting while reading the game, and updating his thoughts. but nothing is new from this post. its almost like giant filler. He has missed key points about the lvoers claiming to be same aligned, and many of the questions he has has all ready been asked. I see no conclusion from the situation as well, or what direction he wants to go about this. (considering he unvoted )

I also asked pcm to make a case/push someone else. i didn't care if he kept his vote on ultra or not. He didn't follow through. Sure he didn't say he would, but if we look at how he stands in the game, we don't know where he stands. If we don't lynch a lover, who would we lynch? For all the ground he gained in the post that satisfied myself, he just back peddled a great deal with this post...

Um, to reiterate, I've said that's what I've been doing... now umpteen and one times. If you had a problem with it, I think the cutoff to complain is somewhere before umpteen. I don't have as much time as I'd like to dedicate to this game, so I'm covering a lot of ground at once and giving natural reactions. If some of it's not relevant anymore, then it's no different from any post where all you do is crack the whip, which only makes you a bully.

As for the alignment thing, I didn't miss it. I hadn't gotten there yet, if you would kindly pay some attention. Either way, I question it. If they don't die together, they're not lovers. It's plain and simple. They could be referred to as "lovers" flavorwise, but they're not lovers. That, to me, seems to be the only reasonable explanation. Otherwise we've got a whole clutch of liars waiting to be hung. And if it's inconsistent, then f*ck that.

For one, I don't recall you telling me to make a case. Knowing you, you probably did. That said, it would be kind of silly now, doncha think? I'd be either virus or ultra, and that's been done to death. Either way, the jury's still out on them as far as I'm concerned. You see, I don't make snap judgements like you do. I actually take time and think about a lot of stuff (my posts often take well over an hour to write, even when they're not the length of a Russian novel). I feel like you're looking for reasons to come after me, specifically because you know that I could go toe-to-toe with you. If that requires you to disregard what I've said for the umpteenth and two hundred and seventh time, hell why not?

Interesting thought, and indulge me here with some mechanics talk: could this fold back onto the fakeclaim discussion? Maybe the roles of the two are town aligned, but are the lovers actually who they say they are?

...yeah, I don't even believe that. I'm gonna leave it here to see if it resonates with anyone else though. It'd actually be kinda clever to some extent, and make me want to shoot myself to another.

@zivel, now i'd love to know who your partner is. since i do think you are town, how ever i understand why its probably for the best to not announce that yet.

Why would you even ask that? We don't even know if they die together. I know not knowing leaves us in the dark about some other stuff, but c'mon man. You know better than that.

just imagine for a moment, before i posted my first things, ultra was already the center of attention.
knowing what my ability was, before my game even began i was already kind of doomed to die.
for the 2nd game in a row not making it to day 2, might just not be the best experience you can have.
there for my cynical approach and my indifference who dies.
i still hope somewhere we come to senses and decide otherwise but i feel dead before the game even began for me. maybe if you view it from my point of view you get where my actions and decisions come from.

While I understand the frustration, I'd also like to point out that you are held to no obligation to fulfill that promise and could live to Day 2 if you so chose, given that it's uncertain whether or not you'll die if he does. Considering the way he has no value for your life in this game, I wouldn't save him in your shoes.

[StorrZerg]

Why is zivel most likely town, and even if 3rd party, his win conditions are likely the same as towns.

His style of play compared to the 2 other lover claims. He is active, he is scum hunting. He is giving reads, and proactive.

His counter claim was very townie. A mafia cc wouldn't make much sense, if ultra was lynched and flipped town, he is gunned next. Not a good trade of 2 for 2.

His counter claim also includes information that he had an additional power and his partner has one as well.

Claiming his qt is active. More than likely it's discussion on the game, trying to figure things out which lines up with how he is playing. This is something hard to do as 2 mafia, being active on both fronts, not to mention again, being ok to cc ultra.

His discussion isn't limited, he is open to new paths. He isn't tunneling on ultra, his follow up on pcm is good to.

He read pcm as mafia, revaluation of pcm. Wasn't quite sure, asked pcm a question after. Imo this is a townie trait of zivel. He is still trying to figure out pcm, hence the question which was more of a prompt to get pcm to add discussion on the subject.

[dd515087]

So this is back a couple pages, but here I am with comments/concerns DD.
Previously you read anark, myself, and aage as scum with no reasons provided. And now in this post, anark has become primarily neutral, aage has become town, and I have stayed the same while you have added AOG, ultra, and virus to the scum list.
So what are reasons for the original scum reads, the changes, and the current scum reads. (You can also give reasons for your town reads)

The original reads were my thoughts on like half the game at the moment. I felt like I needed to post something after I was prodded, after reading through the rest of the posts I changed my mind.
As for Ultra and virus... Did you skim through everything? They have been read as scum for numerous reasons: poor reads, weird votes, calling each other scum and then coming out as lovers... Do I need to say more? I will go back and quote everything if necessary, but if you read through the last 4ish pages you will find everything on them.

Alright I was really looking for what changed your mind, and actually I thought about putting "these may be a bit more obvious" behind ultra and virus, but now you have at least clarified that they are your thoughts. So no, you don't need to say any more on them, but perhaps you could share why you lessened on anark and made aage town?

The anark read is a soft scum one, aage is a much stronger town read. I'm not entirely sure why you are distracting from the main conversation of the day, but if my thoughts will help you then I will give them:
(not going to quote because there are way too many posts and most of them are long)
aage - I liked his reads on ultra and AoG on the 31st to start off. He really joins the convo and adds a lot on page 10 with more reads with solid arguments behind them. He is asked for his thoughts on other people's reads and he adds to the conversation on them and continues conversations. He basically has little BS in his posts and makes reads and pushes and has arguments to back them up. (Through about page 13 to 14 or wherever the lover topic came up)
anark - Also participated a lot back on pages 10-12ish but his posts have a lot less content. At one point he brings up something about the name of the game which was pretty irrelevant and useless. He basically participated a lot for a while but had little relevant content or solid arguments.

[dd515087]

also I think we're leaning right now that lovers, going against the classic lover model, DO NOT die together. I just trust ultra/virus more because they were both willing to claim lovers together (Which means that if one of them are scum, they're both scum) instead of us just lynching ultra and not knowing who his other half was. Here are our possibilities in terms of lynching the lovers right now:
I'm pretty sure I mentioned this earlier, but based on my Role PM and the commonly known story that my character is based off, I think that if I die then my lover will die too
...
the point I'm poorly making is that if ultra and virus were both scum, it would be a horrifically bad play to come out as lovers. I just feel as if zivel and dd are protecting their lovers' identities because they know that lovers are same alignment and they don't want to screw their other half over.
If I revealed who my lover was mafia would be able to target either one of us in the night, whereas now they can only target me

also the fact that ultra/virus got counter claimed means nothing to me. zivel and dd could've just done it thinking "oh, I am scum but I am a lover pair also, maybe I can convince the town I am non-scum by counter claiming".
I don't think that there would be any logic in a scum counter claim. That is too bold a move IMO. Maybe a third party, but I think Zivel is town and my guess for who is partner is is also very townie (granted I could be wrong about his lover, but it's something)

[StorrZerg]

Why is the anark read town at this point in time?

Dd5. What's your read on pcm

[Army of GOD]

also the fact that ultra/virus got counter claimed means nothing to me. zivel and dd could've just done it thinking "oh, I am scum but I am a lover pair also, maybe I can convince the town I am non-scum by counter claiming".
I don't think that there would be any logic in a scum counter claim. That is too bold a move IMO. Maybe a third party, but I think Zivel is town and my guess for who is partner is is also very townie (granted I could be wrong about his lover, but it's something)

[/quote]

but is it more or less bold than ultra voting to lynch himself when he's only a few votes away from being lynched? I would say a lot less bold.