[FINISHED] Board Game Mafia: Endgame - Piece of Peace

[Ragian]

I call bullshit on that, sir.
1) None of your scummates was on the Tim and TWR lynches either.
2) Your argument leads to the conclusion that the last scum must be all the things you're claiming not to be (dumb and/or inexperienced) since everyone left was on either the Tim or the TWR lynch.

What have you done in terms of nailing scum (not cult, scum) this game?

[Metsfanmax]

I call bullshit on that, sir.
1) None of your scummates was on the Tim and TWR lynches either.

...that's the point I was making. If I was scum, then -- given that I have in fact played this game before -- I would know that a smart scum team splits up their votes. It would be completely unreasonable to expect that a scum team with at least some veterans on it would all be missing from that D1 lynch. It is actually pretty insulting that you are suggesting I am scum for this reason -- you're effectively saying I'm too stupid to have gotten on the Tim lynch, given that none of my alleged scum mates were on it. So if anything the place we should probably be looking for any remaining scum is in the latter part of the list of people who voted for Tim.

2) Your argument leads to the conclusion that the last scum must be all the things you're claiming not to be (dumb and/or inexperienced) since everyone left was on either the Tim or the TWR lynch.

Not necessarily. Sometimes things prevent optimal play from occurring even when it comes to veterans. As a hypothetical, just for the sake of example, you could have someone who might have wanted to get on the lynch but was too busy with RL issues and missed the hammer. This particular thing doesn't apply to me -- I am basically always online -- but maybe it could happen to someone else. Or, who knows, maybe someone decided to go the next meta-level up and stayed off the Tim lynch as part of a WIFOM maneuver. I certainly would have considered this angle too if I were scum. So the point here is mainly that it's damn hard to infer meaning from someone's presence or absence on the lynch list.

What have you done in terms of nailing scum (not cult, scum) this game?

Nice try, but I'm not falling for that. "Well he helped nail an anti-town player -- one that I didn't even get on the lynch for -- but that's inconvenient to my case right now, so I'm going to shift the goalposts and redefine what it means to help town." Killing IB is way more important to town's long-term interests than killing a mafia stooge, and you know that, but admitting that would be like admitting maybe you're wrong, and no, Ragian can't do that can he?

[Metsfanmax]

LSU and Hotshot pretty much have it right. IB is cult recruiter. He recruited me night 2. Why? I guess because he thought I might have something on him which I did. I am the cop and had him as third party/cult after night 1. Why confess? I become third party survivor if IB is lynched or killed. I wanted to help cult win but that doesn't seem likely any more so I'll go with trying to win it on my own. Note: I don't trust madmitch. Im a cop and we have a tracker and watcher. Too many investigative roles. Already have 3 with a role that could have replaced one.

Upon further review, this just doesn't add up.

1) This investigation result claim is odd. Cop investigations almost never tell you if someone is third party and/or cult; they only tell you whether someone is mafia or not mafia.

1a) Why investigate IB? He wasn't really on anyone's radar during D1. In D2 you say that you thought he was cult because he was laying low and didn't go after the claimed third party -- but if you thought he was cult, and specifically you thought he was not mafia, why investigate him, given the above, that investigations don't tell you if someone is cult? You would know that basic mechanic, you've played enough.

2) If this is supposed to be a full claim, why didn't you list who you investigated N2?

3) Your first post in D2 asks LSU if he wants to talk about anything other than IB -- why push someone off the IB case if you know he's anti-town?

4) If you wanted to help cult win, why didn't you claim that you were the cop, and that you investigated IB, and that he came up clean?

[Metsfanmax]

vote strike wolf

I'm actually thinking that maybe strike is a mafia rolecop or something. That would explain all of the facts much better than his flimsy claim does. It would also explain why he didn't die to a mafia killshot last night.

Of course, I could have been right the first time, and maybe he's telling the truth about his role but lying about his WC. Either way, that's enough for me to pull the trigger.

[Ragian]

I call bullshit on that, sir.
1) None of your scummates was on the Tim and TWR lynches either.

...that's the point I was making. If I was scum, then -- given that I have in fact played this game before -- I would know that a smart scum team splits up their votes. It would be completely unreasonable to expect that a scum team with at least some veterans on it would all be missing from that D1 lynch. It is actually pretty insulting that you are suggesting I am scum for this reason -- you're effectively saying I'm too stupid to have gotten on the Tim lynch, given that none of my alleged scum mates were on it. So if anything the place we should probably be looking for any remaining scum is in the latter part of the list of people who voted for Tim.

2) Your argument leads to the conclusion that the last scum must be all the things you're claiming not to be (dumb and/or inexperienced) since everyone left was on either the Tim or the TWR lynch.

Not necessarily. Sometimes things prevent optimal play from occurring even when it comes to veterans. As a hypothetical, just for the sake of example, you could have someone who might have wanted to get on the lynch but was too busy with RL issues and missed the hammer. This particular thing doesn't apply to me -- I am basically always online -- but maybe it could happen to someone else. Or, who knows, maybe someone decided to go the next meta-level up and stayed off the Tim lynch as part of a WIFOM maneuver. I certainly would have considered this angle too if I were scum. So the point here is mainly that it's damn hard to infer meaning from someone's presence or absence on the lynch list.

What have you done in terms of nailing scum (not cult, scum) this game?

Nice try, but I'm not falling for that. "Well he helped nail an anti-town player -- one that I didn't even get on the lynch for -- but that's inconvenient to my case right now, so I'm going to shift the goalposts and redefine what it means to help town." Killing IB is way more important to town's long-term interests than killing a mafia stooge, and you know that, but admitting that would be like admitting maybe you're wrong, and no, Ragian can't do that can he?

Well, at least you're saying things now. The personal touch with me calling you stupid, I can do without. That's entirely how you perceive it. And for the record, I'm used to being wrong. It jsut so happens that I'm not wrong in this case. (Well, in my point of view, of course.)

And yes, it makes perfect sense for me to "shift the goalposts" now that I'm asking someone whom I am certain is scum given that it's in your interest, too, to get rid of the cult recruiter before he becomes too powerful.

It would be completely unreasonable to expect that a scum team with at least some veterans on it would all be missing from that D1 lynch. It is actually pretty insulting that you are suggesting I am scum for this reason -- you're effectively saying I'm too stupid to have gotten on the Tim lynch, given that none of my alleged scum mates were on it.

Or, who knows, maybe someone decided to go the next meta-level up and stayed off the Tim lynch as part of a WIFOM maneuver.

That would be someone experienced...like you...

At least we agree now

---

re: strike wolf and mechanics

I've played loads of games as cop where I've gotten the result scum/town, but also loads of games as cop where I've gotten the result not town/town. It's up to the mod really. I don't think that your first argument against strike is airtight. Your second point about the lack of fully claiming with reasons for investigations, however, makes perfect sense. I guess 3 and 4 are also worth exploring.

But if strike were indeed the last scum, why didn't he kill anyone last night?

[Ragian]

Also, I'm not solely calling you scum for that reason. I'm also calling you scum for that reason.

[rizky_biznezz]

strike did your investigation on IB just come back as 3rd party or was cult included?

[LSU Tiger Josh]

Vote Mets I can confirm that strike did visit him last night. I would have my doubts bout him staying cop after going cult and changing, but this will help me feel confident that cult did not live on via strike.

[Ragian]

Any thoughts on whom you think the SK is, LSU? Before we kill off mets?

[LSU Tiger Josh]

AoG is my best guess for sk but i don't know yet

[Metsfanmax]

re: strike wolf and mechanics

I've played loads of games as cop where I've gotten the result scum/town, but also loads of games as cop where I've gotten the result not town/town. It's up to the mod really. I don't think that your first argument against strike is airtight.

That doesn't change the nature of the argument. Even if the result is town/not town instead of mafia/not mafia, it still doesn't allow for the possibility of getting a "third party/cult" result.

But if strike were indeed the last scum, why didn't he kill anyone last night?

How do we know he didn't try? LSU confirms that strike visited me. Perhaps the wishbone saved me, or perhaps a doc tried to protect me. I don't think this is more likely than the cult possibility, but that's OK, because if I'm wrong, we still kill cult.

[Ragian]

My main argument is that your argument hinges on something we're not privy to. The mod decides how he wants to divulge information. Some mods have different ways is all I've learned. Anyway, I'm still keeping my eye on Strike, so really I shouldn't take up the argument. And yet I did.

@mets, this wishbone you keep mentioning. What does it do? I'm not asking you to quote your role PM, but could you provide some information, please?

[strike wolf]

Mets you are using the same half logic that you are accusing others of. Cults almost always die when they visit mafia yet you are trying to make me into the last mafia when I have admitted that cult visited me.

I was never asked for the logic behind my investigations either by the way. N1 and N2 I went for people I was suspicious of who I thought were unlikely to be the main lynch target the next day without an investigation. N1 that was IB, he had basically taken day 1 off after voting the easy in actives and only drew a little bit of attention. My result came back third party. If it had come back cult than I would have gone for the lynch whether it was sporting or not. As it was I knew there was a good chance that he was cult but held off due to uncertainty of alignment and it being unsporting to lynch a guy who seemingly couldn't defend himself. N2 I investigated whatsausage. He had scum marines the entire game and I think I was maybe one of two or three people who ever called him out on it. N3, I was curious about the mets/mitch situation and investigating one of them seemed the quickestimate way to start the process of cleaning it up.

In short, I get results that say mafia, third party or town. I haven't asked what an SK would come up as.

By the way, the night 1 scene suggests that the person who killed Wing was the same as the one who got shot at in the scene. Rizky admitted to being shot at (deflected by his vest), so I would say he is by far the most likely candidate for SK.

vote rizky

@raglan he claimed that the wishbone causes a 50/50 chance for actions to be reversed.

[Metsfanmax]

My main argument is that your argument hinges on something we're not privy to. The mod decides how he wants to divulge information. Some mods have different ways is all I've learned. Anyway, I'm still keeping my eye on Strike, so really I shouldn't take up the argument. And yet I did.

Your main argument that I am mafia, that mitch (and strike?) said I am, is also based on something you're not privy to

@mets, this wishbone you keep mentioning. What does it do? I'm not asking you to quote your role PM, but could you provide some information, please?

It has a 50% chance of reversing the result of an action that targets me. I can't really say anymore without treading on the role PM.

Mets you are using the same half logic that you are accusing others of. Cults almost always die when they visit mafia yet you are trying to make me into the last mafia when I have admitted that cult visited me.

I have no reason to trust your claim that cult visited you. If you're a mafia rolecop as I suggested, you could have been making that bit up entirely.

I was never asked for the logic behind my investigations either by the way.

If you were town-aligned you wouldn't need to be asked, you would do it because town-aligned people are always as forthcoming with the truth as they can be.

N1 and N2 I went for people I was suspicious of who I thought were unlikely to be the main lynch target the next day without an investigation. N1 that was IB, he had basically taken day 1 off after voting the easy in actives and only drew a little bit of attention. My result came back third party.

Before you said the result was "third party/cult." Now you're saying the result was "third party." Seems like you're changing your story.

N2 I investigated whatsausage.

How convenient that you investigated the person who died that night.

[Ragian]

I have it down to AoG, rizky, BuJ, or you.

I'm striking (badabum-tschj) from the list given LSU's information and the scene. I.e. AoG, rizky, and BuJ. My initial thoughts on rizky was the weird BP thing that he should've kept to himself. Well, I would anyway. Keep scum in the dark. It could be seen as a clever way for an sk to tell scum that they shouldn't kill him, I guess.

I need to investigate it further.

@strike, would you rather lynch sk than scum? I'm sorry if I've already asked this question...

[strike wolf]

You don't have to trust me, you can trust LSU's result that IB visited me. I was willing to answer any questions but the actual explanations of why I visited who I did seemed unnecessary at the time when I felt I had other things to say. I say third partty/cult because cult shows up as third party. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

At this point, I would rather lynch known SK than known mafia. I can still potentially reveal definitively the SK and that makes me a threat to him. As survivor, I have to eliminate those who I think might kill me. If Mets is mafia which seems likely at this point, I have already revealed him and killing me at night would just be a waste of his efforts making him much less of a threat to me.

[Metsfanmax]

Ok fine. I forgot about LSU's claim. You're probably not mafia. However, I still think there's zero chance that you are a survivor.

[madmitch]

that sounds like a threat , lets try to find and hang the SK . I think it might AOG .

[Ragian]

Why?

[madmitch]

He has been really quiet ,not saying much and it just a gut feeling.

[/]

Vote Count

Ragian: (1 vote) BuJaber
Metsfanmax: (1 vote) LSU Tiger Josh
strike wolf: (1 vote) Metsfanmax
rizky_biznezz: (1 vote) strike wolf

With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch!
Deadline Saturday the 7th, extensions available!

[BuJaber]

if rizky was lying the whole time it would explain a whole lot.

[madmitch]

I going back to a sure thing VOTE METS

[rizky_biznezz]

I only revealed the info because scum already knew they tried to kill me I thought town should know that there should have been 3 kills thus letting u know there was a possibility of 2 kills still the next night... If I had anything to hide I wouldn't have said anything..

I'm gonna vote mets for now and hope the investigations are right.. I would rather try for mafia today if we start killing randomly and get it wrong we may still be faced with 2 kills so we lose 3 towns in one go

[Ragian]

I acknowledge your point, rizky. But if you were the SK, I would expect you to say just that. Catch 22.

Anyway, I'm not comfortable lynching anyone without having AoG participating. I'll vote AoG (who's a strong candidate for the SK in my opinion) if he doesn't show up.

@BuJ, you're still voting me?