Two Sides Mafia: Side A, Endgame, The Old Ways

[Victor Sullivan]

It's not like you're doing much better, Rodion

-Sully

[edocsil]

@VS - "The looks of it"? That's some solid attempt at scumhunting!

Here's the thing about taking the deal. Assuming someone does take the deal. So we lynch them in the side where he's mafia and we assume he's town in the other side. He immediately rises to the top of the mafia kill list as being a psuedoconfirmed townie. Which means he'll probably die relatively early there as well.

Now, not only is he dead in both games, the promise of a town win is still unclear for him, AND he cannot do anything to push the town win closer to reality because he's dead.

Make no mistake about that: I agree with a good ammount of what you say. But why are you arguing that it is best for mafia players NOT to take the deal? If you truly think that and are a town/town player, keep it for yourself and hope they will confess anyway. At least the game in which he confesses to be mafia will earn town a solid boost, right? So why derail the plan by showing mafia players why they shouldn't accept it?

I am going to say this one last time and then I am not going to continue this unless there is a question specifically addressed to me about it.

You are a good player, so you know that the S/T is going to have serious problems if he agrees to this.

You have some plan going to trick people (someone specific I imagine) and I see it having potential to do me harm as a townie (dead/recruited town will happen because of a claim like this)

I distrust this plan because it seems to have little to do with a town victory, so I do my best to put a stick between the spokes so to speak.

[/]

An A Vote Count

You are on side A
!%$!@#$% same as yesterday!

Sully; 1 vote: safari
Rodion; 3 votes: PCM, VS, jonty

with 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch

Deadline Thursday

[Rodion]

I've seen Milkshake "browsing this forum" for a good portion of the day. Too bad all he really ended up doing was unvote his jokevote on Side B. What makes him ignore the much more important discussion in Side A in a game with a really short deadline puzzles me, but hopefully I can get an answer by voting CMS.

[Rodion]

http://imageshack.us/f/521/cms.png

Online after being called out and offline before replying?

This is not looking good...

[crazymilkshake5]

I dont stalk the mafia forum, nor CC, I'm on Sporadically, so i cant post every time im on, and i literally just checked this. And others have been more silent than I have...

[Rodion]

25+ minutes to write this? Ok...

Others who?
And what do you think about their silence?
And why would you prioritize unvoting your jokevote on Side B over answering a more important question on Side A?

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,

Why is the offer scummy? Do you think one (or both) of the towns would get closer to a loss if someone were to take me on the confessing offer?

[pancakemix]

He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying he's not telling us whether he's M/T or not. That's not fair if he's asking for that disclosure from others. His whole plan is based around unconditional trust and I don't see how he could hope to achieve that.

[drunkmonkey]

He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying he's not telling us whether he's M/T or not. That's not fair if he's asking for that disclosure from others. His whole plan is based around unconditional trust and I don't see how he could hope to achieve that.

Huh? From his original "plea bargain" post:

That said, I'm a town/town player (going with the 9-3 speculation, there are at least 6 town/town players in the game).

[crazymilkshake5]

25+ minutes to write this? Ok...

Others who?
And what do you think about their silence?
And why would you prioritize unvoting your jokevote on Side B over answering a more important question on Side A?

Just read up on every thing and I Shall FoS Rodion and possible vote until further notice.

Can you give a reason to go with your FOS, if that's not too much to ask?

I find your offer quite scummy and with your quick "i'm town" doesnt help the situation either,

Why is the offer scummy? Do you think one (or both) of the towns would get closer to a loss if someone were to take me on the confessing offer?

Well first off It was your first post, And in that first post you very quickly claimed town/town while appealing to town/mafia (switch) players, If you claimed town/mafia (switch) then i would probabbly believe you, but you didnt, but i dont mean to say that nobody should take your offer. I just strongly dislike the fact that you claimed town/town IN YOUR FIRST POST!
Fastposted

[pancakemix]

He wasn't upfront about why he was telling mafia to claim they were mafia in one of the games. I admit, I didn't see what his plan was, and I posted reasons it would backfire, but I can't see a good reason a mafia member would want other mafia to out themselves. I guess maybe if he's A mafia, and a B mafia claimed "mafia/town", he could confirm them as B mafia. But that runs a risk of giving himself away in A. If he's doing it strictly to catch scum, he's not going to come out and say "mafia should claim M/T, and then this is how we'll catch them later". I think it's shaky reasoning to keep a vote on someone, and coming up with two "so-so" reasons is overcompensating for the fact that there isn't really one "good" reason.

That's not what I was saying. I'm saying he's not telling us whether he's M/T or not. That's not fair if he's asking for that disclosure from others. His whole plan is based around unconditional trust and I don't see how he could hope to achieve that.

Huh? From his original "plea bargain" post:

That said, I'm a town/town player (going with the 9-3 speculation, there are at least 6 town/town players in the game).

Victor and I have been saying that for two pages and no one bothered to point that out until now?

And even with that, I still can't say I find this in any way, shape, or form worth spending time on. How is saying "I'm town, mafia forfeit please." worth the time spent typing it? And tbqh, if someone says they're town, that's even less reason to trust them.

There's also the issue of the WIFOM statement Rodion made, which he has not yet bothered to respond to and has instead decided to pursue crazymilkshake. My vote stands.

[crazymilkshake5]

Depending on his response he will have my vote.

[Rodion]

Victor and you have been saying shit for the last 2 pages, but I had no idea that was at least partly due to skimming until you just made it obvious. I'm not even sure Victor was saying (or, better, meaning to say) the same thing you claim you meant to say.

I'm not sure what you want me to say about any WIFOM statement I made. Care to elaborate? Or, even better, since CMS also wants to hear the answer, perhaps he could mention the WIFOM statement and ask the question himself? That would surely help him prove he knows what he's talking about instead of simply threatening to vote the biggest current bandwagon.

[Rodion]

Well first off It was your first post,

What is that supposed to mean? That it would have been less scummy if I had done some jokevoting instead first and only made the offer later?

And in that first post you very quickly claimed town/town while appealing to town/mafia (switch) players, If you claimed town/mafia (switch) then i would probabbly believe you, but you didnt, but i dont mean to say that nobody should take your offer.

Ok, you don't meant to say that nobody should take my offer. So, would you rather like someone to take my offer and confess?Why (or why not)?

I just strongly dislike the fact that you claimed town/town IN YOUR FIRST POST!
Fastposted

Oh, ok, so that seems to be the problem. Is mafia any more likely to win the game after I said I was town/town in my first post? Why (or why not)?

[Victor Sullivan]

Rodion, I really don't think the aggressively defensive stance your are holding is helping your cause. Sounds more like a frustrated scum to me! Just saying from my own experience (i.e. when TheGeneral got me, the Godfather, lynched on reasoning that I thought didn't hold any water).

-Sully

[Rodion]

Rodion, I really don't think the aggressively defensive stance your are holding is helping your cause. Sounds more like a frustrated scum to me! Just saying from my own experience (i.e. when TheGeneral got me, the Godfather, lynched on reasoning that I thought didn't hold any water).

-Sully

Check NBC D2 and MtG D1. I'm agressive when people are stupid and that should by no means be proof of "frustrated scum". But if instead of comparing Rodion with Rodion you think it's more accurate to compare Rodion with VS...

[Victor Sullivan]

Well, I don't particularly remember how Rodion was in games Rodion was in. At any rate, I don't understand why you continue to argue your point?

-Sully

[Rodion]

Well, I don't particularly remember how Rodion was in games Rodion was in.

Well, it just so happens Victor was in MtG as well (and he kinda co-modded NBC).

At any rate, I don't understand why you continue to argue your point?

-Sully

Not sure what you mean here, Victor. If by arguing my point you mean defending myself against people that are voting/FOSing me showing why what I did should not be perceived as scummy, the answer is obvious, isn't it? If you mean anything else, then please explain.

[jonty125]

I don't think I've played a game where Rodion was scum, so I can't help with the meta.

[crazymilkshake5]

First off I want to say that i have read all of it, and i am posting this just before i go to work, so i wont be able to get much in it.

Secondly, I could care less about you other games! that was those games, this is this game! who the f*ck cares about a previous game? not me. peoples play styles change and can change, so im ignoring all statements reffering to previous games.

That all i have, I currently have to run off to work, and will have more later.

[shieldgenerator7]

I don't think I've played a game where Rodion was scum, so I can't help with the meta.

Really? lshicastr! In almost all the games I've played him in he's been Mafia: Terminator, UNKNOWN, ... I forget the rest. Anyway Terminator is Rodion's original claim to fame because he got the real cop lynched after the cop outed him as scum! (and I got NK'd )

Since then Rodion has been a plotting powerhouse , taking down scum like a sniper on steroids. He's pretty much unstoppable. He's actually younger than me in mafia years, but way more overpowered (but he's still not as cool as me )

-SG7 ( )

[Rodion]

First off I want to say that i have read all of it, and i am posting this just before i go to work, so i wont be able to get much in it.

Sounds fair, let's see what you decided to prioritize this time.

Secondly, I could care less about you other games! that was those games, this is this game! who the f*ck cares about a previous game? not me. peoples play styles change and can change, so im ignoring all statements reffering to previous games.

That all i have, I currently have to run off to work, and will have more later.

So, you wanted me to answer the same question/comment PCM wanted, a question/comment I said I did not understand so I asked you, CMS, to (re)phrase it to me. I figure that is an important question/comment, since you said you would vote me DEPENDING ON MY ANSWER. Instead of (re)phrasing it and making the game move forward, you prioritize your short time to say you don't care about anything that is being discussed between VS and me.

That is the second time you claim not to have "enough time" but befuddle us all (or at least me) by using the few time you claim to have in a way that does not help with the game advancing at all. Why?

[crazymilkshake5]

So now your attacking my RL statement of having not enough time to post? that's low... I have this thing called a job. Something that you apparently don't have. Apparently you just sit on your lazy ass and eat bon bons all freaking day long...

Right, so that pissed me off.... back to your original question.

The problem of why your offer sounds scummy is because it offers to many escape paths to the mafia.

Lets pretend im mafia/mafia, I take your offer, I basically get an auto lynch. but oh wait! I took your deal saying that im mafia/town, get lynched and get basically an auto clear on the other side. Who knows, if you have a mason you could have set that s*** up. your mason takes the deal. Hes cleared.
My point being:
If someone is mafia/mafia, they basically get an auto clear.
If you have a mafia mason, he basically gets a free pass.
If you are town. then you have one hell of a mind.

[Rodion]

You totally missed the point. I did not complain that you did not have enough time. I complained that you used the few time you had to so something meaningless when you could have done something meaningful instead. And that was the 2nd time you had done that already.

Depending on his response he will have my vote.

I want to give a response. But can you give me the question?

I'm not sure what you want me to say about any WIFOM statement I made. Care to elaborate? Or, even better, since CMS also wants to hear the answer, perhaps he could mention the WIFOM statement and ask the question himself? That would surely help him prove he knows what he's talking about instead of simply threatening to vote the biggest current bandwagon.

See? I've been accusing you of attempting to join a bandwagon just because it is the closest to a lynch. I questioned your reasons and said you probably didn't have any (legit ones). Then you said you wanted me to answer something and I asked you to make the damn question. As I said, I can only assume the question to be important, since you said you'd vote depending on its response. Instead of doing that (explicitly explaining what you'd like me to respond), you decided to post saying "I don't care about what VS or you did in past games", but outright ignored the supposedly important subject. After I explained that in my last post, you decide to say you have a job and call me fat? And then you elaborate on something, but ONE MORE TIME CHOOSES NOT TO ADRESS THE THING I HAD EXPLICITLY ASKED YOU TO ADRESS. I'll end this post just like I ended my last.

Why?

[Rodion]

Wait, there's more!

Well first off It was your first post, And in that first post you very quickly claimed town/town while appealing to town/mafia (switch) players, If you claimed town/mafia (switch) then i would probabbly believe you, but you didnt, but i dont mean to say that nobody should take your offer. I just strongly dislike the fact that you claimed town/town [color=#FF0000]IN YOUR FIRST POST![/color]
Fastposted

Implies the offer itself is not scummy, what is scummy is saying "I'm town/town" in my first post.

Lets pretend im mafia/mafia, I take your offer, I basically get an auto lynch. but oh wait! I took your deal saying that im mafia/town, get lynched and get basically an auto clear on the other side. Who knows, if you have a mason you could have set that s*** up. your mason takes the deal. Hes cleared.
My point being:
If someone is mafia/mafia, they basically get an auto clear.
If you have a mafia mason, he basically gets a free pass.
If you are town. then you have one hell of a mind.

Argues that the offer is scummy (in almost direct contradiction to the former quote).
Implies I have the power of clearing people (being "almost cleared in my eyes" - the thing I actually promised - is pretty different from "being cleared in everyone's opinion"). You probably don't need a law background in order to know that if Rodion makes a deal with, say, Edocsil, everyone else is not bound by it and are not forced to consider Edocsil cleared. At all. That means that if a mafia/mafia player were to take the offer, we'd have:
a) found free scum in 1 game
b) have Rodion (with his 1 vote and possibly 1 night action) forced to consider 1 mafia as almost cleared in the other game, while everyone else was free to conclude whatever they wanted

Do you think a + b = negative sum for town/town players?

And I do have a hell of a mind (thank you!), which makes it especially frustrating to argue with people that can't think properly (and this is not specifically aimed at you).