Hurling: Fastest Field Sport - VACATION

[Androidz]

wow, more bickering in this thread?

I've said this before and I'll probably say it a dozen more times before I get fed up with with site and start my own (wink) - no map is going to make everybody happy. This Foundry is full of folks with strong opinions and the willingness to voice them, which is fine so long as they restrict their comments to the map and don't get mean/personal.

So, if one or two users hates your map should you stop? No, especially if you feel passionate about the project which it seems you do, seamusk. This is clearly the map you want to see at ConquerClub, so I say by all means go for it.

However, the fact that over half of the poll respondents aren't behind the production of this map doesn't bode well, because most such polls around here (even for what I think aren't great ideas) get at least 80% support. Now, just because people don't care for the idea doesn't mean its a bad idea, nor does it mean that this couldn't be a great map. What it does mean is that as you try to get this map to progress through the Foundry you aren't going to have very much support, and for better or for worse the Foundry process is one that relies on constructive criticism and support from the community.

For a map to be considered 'good' around here it needs to 1) have a unique or interesting theme, 2) play well, and 3) look good. I've been lucky enough to see maps get through with only two of those elements, and now nobody plays them (Chinese Checkers, anyone?). And I've started a few projects that had only one - or none - of those elements going for it, which you can find on the back pages of Map Ideas if you're interested.

I'm hearing concerns in this thread from different folks about all three areas - theme, play, and graphics - which suggests you have a long road yet ahead of you. You may need to seriously rethink some elements of this map if you want to rally the support you'll need to get this map through the Foundry.

im probably not the on to speak for seamusk, but 5-10 voters of that poll voted after DiM was on the warpath, so he has most likly asked them to vote no for it. I feel strange that in just 20min there is over 10 + in bad votes.

Also i know hes working alot of this map adding more all the time, so hes burning passion for this map will make 80% happy with it.

PS: i want to do a revamp of Chinese checkers:D (not)

[edbeard]

I changed my vote.

I think the idea of the map is good.

The presentation is not good at all.


Distinguishing between types of players is not easy. One example. You've essentially labeled fullbacks as only being in the two corners (top right and bottom left) when, in fact, each team has 3 fullbacks. The same happens for players at all positions. Consider different shaped army circles.


The balls for who can attack goals and who can attack uprights are almost the same.


The text for player types isn't readable.


The legend needs work. There are too many rules that can get lost in the fold. Why is there a rule for the ball when there are attack lines going to it.

[seamusk]

I changed my vote.

I think the idea of the map is good.

The presentation is not good at all.

Thanks and fair enough.

Distinguishing between types of players is not easy. One example. You've essentially labeled fullbacks as only being in the two corners (top right and bottom left) when, in fact, each team has 3 fullbacks. The same happens for players at all positions. Consider different shaped army circles.

I did a major overhaul on the labels a couple of days ago. In fact, I was surprised few had mentioned this specific issues earlier.

The balls for who can attack goals and who can attack uprights are almost the same.

Yeah good point. I mean obviously they are the same ball, but I should be able to distinguish more clearly.

The text for player types isn't readable.

Just an attempt at using a gaelic font that didn't work. Since abandoned.

The legend needs work. There are too many rules that can get lost in the fold. Why is there a rule for the ball when there are attack lines going to it.

haha. Being thorough? Thanks for the good comments!

[Ditocoaf]

I say keep going with this map. It's complicated, but it looks like it could be really fun. Just ignore DiM; he has a habit of being an asshole to unaccomplished mapmakers. He'll keep trying to kill this map, but the less weight you give his opinions, the less weight others will.

Sure, a nasty comment from DiM has the power to end a thread, quite frequently. But the fact that this thread is still going, shows that it's good enough, and you have enough resolve, to get this through to quenching anyway. I wish you good luck.

[oaktown]

Sure, a nasty comment from DiM has the power to end a thread, quite frequently. But the fact that this thread is still going, shows that it's good enough, and you have enough resolve, to get this through to quenching anyway. I wish you good luck.

Actually, I think nasty comments from DiM means you're doing something right. Now you're one of us!

A big shout-out to edbeard for giving some constructive criticism. It's nice when somebody points out what specifically is wrong and needs to be changed about a map - gives the mapmaker someplace to go.

[wcaclimbing]

Looks like you've gained a bit of support through this whole thing. as of this post the two "i like it" options have 26 votes, and the two "i dont like it" only have 22. So you've got enough people behind this, even though there are a few rather loud people against it. Good luck.

As to suggestions, I'm not even going to pretend to understand Hurling, so I will leave the comments on Gameplay to someone more knowledgeable. (and gameplay is really, really confusing me as to how it works... any move towards simplifying the gameplay would be greatly appreciated)

About the graphics, though, there are a few things I see that could help immensely.

For one, your map has no center of focus visually. Everything is either bright white, bright green, or bright orange, with nothing to draw your eye to the main focus (the playing field). My first suggestion is to darken the background (I think its a flag. The green/white/orange stripes). Doing that will bring focus away from the background and towards the playing field which is bright green. To increase that even more, put a light shadow behind the playing field and goals, so the field pops out in front of the background.

To connect the attacking territories (because I don't know a better word for them than territories) make those lines more solid colors. Right now you can kind of see through them.

I know you're trying to go with a color scheme to match the flag, but have you tried making the white banner with all the explanations on it a darker color? Maybe a light grey. And try making it sort of 3D ish, so it also stands in front of the background.
Maybe try the edges something like this image, but without the metallic shiny look. Just nice smooth edges that bring it in front of the background.


Your image has quite a bit of potential, its just hard to see that through what you have now. Try what I suggested and maybe it will look a bit better. It'll be really difficult to do, but if you keep at it, I think you'll see this one to the end.

Good luck!

[DiM]

im probably not the on to speak for seamusk, but 5-10 voters of that poll voted after DiM was on the warpath, so he has most likly asked them to vote no for it. I feel strange that in just 20min there is over 10 + in bad votes.

you realize you're being absurd here, don't you?
since you're always present in this thread to help your buddy you should have noticed that when i first posted option A had 19 votes and option D had 18. now it's an even 21 votes for each.

I say keep going with this map. It's complicated, but it looks like it could be really fun. Just ignore DiM; he has a habit of being an asshole to unaccomplished mapmakers. He'll keep trying to kill this map, but the less weight you give his opinions, the less weight others will.

i have the habit of being an arrogant bastard as mibi kindly posted
i admit to that BUT it's not against new map makers it's against all map makers. i have always voiced my opinion regardless who made the map. i've had clinches with CAs, with andy with mibi, widowmakers and basically anybody regardless of reputation statute or whatever. if i feel something is wrong then i will say it without any sugarcoating.

Sure, a nasty comment from DiM has the power to end a thread, quite frequently. But the fact that this thread is still going, shows that it's good enough, and you have enough resolve, to get this through to quenching anyway. I wish you good luck.

a nasty comment from me has the power to end a thread only if the map maker is not worthy of quenching a map. if he is then a nasty comment from me has the amazing power of making a map even better.

yes i have a brutal way of pointing out the flaws of a map and yes the more resistance i encounter the more brutal my posts become. if seamusk wants to be a great map maker he needs to get over these comments take them for what they are (constructive criticism) and improve the map. ignoring me will not get him anywhere because the flaws are still on the map and i will keep pointing them over and over again

[seamusk]

Thanks for the good graphics suggestions wca. I did try bringing out the legend banner a bit but I'll try a bit more. And I see what you mean about the field. THANKS!

[DiM]

it's good you're improving the graphics seamus but my advice is to first solve the gameplay issues me and mibi pointed and then take cere of graphics. it's much easier to do graphics when gameplay is finalised and you know you don't have to change stuff.

[yeti_c]

Comments below are from following image.

Version 2.6 - posted 6/27/08

Click image to enlarge.

So - can I just clarify?
a) Goalies can't get attacked of bombarded?
b) Goalies get +3 a turn?
c) You only start on the goalie?
d) Why is one of the forwards Red? (Is that a mistake?)
e) Can the Goalies attack ALL the offense - or just the ones on it's side?
f) How can you "switch teams" if you can't become the goalie? -> In fact - this is the best technique - then you're shooting at your own goal - with no defense... -> So is this a race to the ball - swap around - score own goals? (Hmmm - not sure this works too well for me) in fact - you have a two fold attack on your own goal - cos your fullbacks can weaken them.

Other comments
a) The font on the map is horrible - and completely off theme.
b) you've got 2 bits of vertical writing overlapping each other (in a different font)
c) I think the fact that you have too many "full forwards - half forwards" etc all over the map is helping to clutter and cramp the look.
d) Orange is brutal - but I'll let you off as it's the colour of the flag.
e) The silhouetes are crap - and do you have copyright for them?
f) The ball looks like it is stuck on and flat (And is it copied from somewhere? Do you have copyright?)

C.

[Lone.prophet]

I dont think it is a good thing you cant elimite your opponent.

[yeti_c]

I dont think it is a good thing you cant elimite your opponent.

I disagree with this comment - as I think that "non elimination" games are a great idea...

I'm not sure if it's used to it's full potential on this map though.

C.

[Lone.prophet]

still i get the impression this map will be a luck race

[yeti_c]

still i get the impression this map will be a luck race

That may well be true.

C.

[seamusk]

a) Goalies can't get attacked of bombarded?
b) Goalies get +3 a turn?
c) You only start on the goalie?
d) Why is one of the forwards Red? (Is that a mistake?)

yes, yes, yes, and because I didn't switch from the armies from a test game in progress. So those would start 1 neutral.

e) Can the Goalies attack ALL the offense - or just the ones on it's side?

Goalies can only bombard the offense of opposing team (any offense to simplify the rule - the sample has not been updated to reflect this). They can only attack the fullbacks on their side.

f) How can you "switch teams" if you can't become the goalie? -> In fact - this is the best technique - then you're shooting at your own goal - with no defense... -> So is this a race to the ball - swap around - score own goals? (Hmmm - not sure this works too well for me) in fact - you have a two fold attack on your own goal - cos your fullbacks can weaken them.

Not exactly. The only players who can score 3 point goals are full forwards. So you'd have to fight back through neutrals. You could in theory race to the ball and try and score 5 1 pointers but that requires a lot of neutral killing and you become vulnerable. And the fullbacks cannot weaken the 1 pointer neutrals (probably need to clarify this). But the ball is a new rule and needs to be tested out more.

a) The font on the map is horrible - and completely off theme.
b) you've got 2 bits of vertical writing overlapping each other (in a different font)
c) I think the fact that you have too many "full forwards - half forwards" etc all over the map is helping to clutter and cramp the look.

Yes, the font and double writing is gone. Also is the labels. I have replaced with position initials. So Right Mid Fielder = RMF. It is cleaner and clearer.

d) Orange is brutal - but I'll let you off as it's the colour of the flag.

I hear ya but I think the Irish flag provides a good back drop to this national sport.

e) The silhouetes are crap - and do you have copyright for them?
f) The ball looks like it is stuck on and flat (And is it copied from somewhere? Do you have copyright?)

I have most copyright's covered so far. I need to add some effects to the ball for sure.

Thanks for the good comments yeti!

[yeti_c]

f) How can you "switch teams" if you can't become the goalie? -> In fact - this is the best technique - then you're shooting at your own goal - with no defense... -> So is this a race to the ball - swap around - score own goals? (Hmmm - not sure this works too well for me) in fact - you have a two fold attack on your own goal - cos your fullbacks can weaken them.

Not exactly. The only players who can score 3 point goals are full forwards. So you'd have to fight back through neutrals. You could in theory race to the ball and try and score 5 1 pointers but that requires a lot of neutral killing and you become vulnerable. And the fullbacks cannot weaken the 1 pointer neutrals (probably need to clarify this). But the ball is a new rule and needs to be tested out more.

Hmmm - but when you get to your goal - you're home free - because the goalie will be able to defend your guys... and he can load up the full backs who can weaken the points?

I think that the team swapping thing should be ditched.

Thanks for the good comments yeti!

No probs

C.

[oaktown]

Now that you have explained the movement rules to Yeti, the trick will be making all of the rules clear from the map itself. With maps that are even mildly complicated you have to keep in mind that 99% of the site's users will never have read any of this thread.

[seamusk]

Hmmm - but when you get to your goal - you're home free - because the goalie will be able to defend your guys... and he can load up the full backs who can weaken the points?

I think that the team swapping thing should be ditched.

Yeah, this is an area of concern. In most cases both players will have goalies on each side. And it is impossible to hold the fullbacks and rush to the center of the field and take the ball and rush back and score two goals without the other guy having enough to beat down on you. The concern I think comes when you start on opposite sides.. Then with good dice you can rush to the middle and rush back. But could you really do that without getting hit from behind? And if you cannot do it on one turn, then the goalie on the other side can bombard your midfielders. I think it needs test play. Once you get to that point you get into so many variations that I cannot chart...

On the other hand, the team switching does resolve a gameplay concern I had. The sit and build. If players start with strengths on opposite sides (which will happen frequently) I worry that player B can take his fullbacks and sit and build on them to prevent an objective win because you won't be able to hold the goals. Switching teams forces player B to actually strategize for both ends of the field. There are some other ideas in the works to help with this. For example a bonus on the ball.

Another complication of switching teams is do I keep the ball? I have attack lines from both teams. Explaining the ball without the switching teams mechanism is complicated.

Thanks again for good constructive input on the gameplay. It is appreciated.

[yeti_c]

Another complication of switching teams is do I keep the ball? I have attack lines from both teams. Explaining the ball without the switching teams mechanism is complicated.

Ditch the ball - the ball is implied by the armies on each side... (If you get what I mean!)

(Obviously you'll have to tweak your attack rules for "half backs" to Midfielders...)

C.

[Lone.prophet]

can a goalie bombard all the opposing offence or just middle + side they are on?

[seamusk]

can a goalie bombard all the opposing offence or just middle + side they are on?

I recently changed it to all opposing offense to simplify. But I have not updated the example. What do you think?

[Lone.prophet]

ahh ook thats good that they can attack all offence

[Androidz]

Were currently working on the gameplay and the graphics we got some great plans in mind. So we think we might get most of you happy. Were going deeper into hurling than everP:

Yeah i did volunteer to help seamusk after some1 pissed me off:P

[Lone.prophet]

poeh internet grudge are bad lol

[Androidz]

poeh internet grudge are bad lol

lol