The Circle Of Life

[ender516]

Another thing that came to mind to tie all this together: I was looking at MrBenn's image and thinking how far off the idea he was (no offence intended, MrBenn, but I am pretty sure Woodruff was going for more of a Lion King Circle of Life thing).

I was, but I think you misunderstood MrBenn's thought with the image...I think he was just looking for a "circular groupings" sort of map starting point, rather than something that particularly fit the aspects of my idea. Then again, perhaps I misunderstood him. <grin>

Oh, I hadn't thought of that. In any event, I hope MrBenn continues to visit. I admire his map skills. His England map is looking good.

But I very much DO like this image you have, and I think I can really take the concept you've got here and run with it a bit. Thank you very much for that.

Happy to help. Keep in mind, though, that image is not mine and there is a copyright on it. Still, I did think it would be inspiring.

Oh wait, maybe I just figured out what you did mean...so for instance, a particular "territory" might actually be associated with more than one potential bonus (can the XML do that?)...so for instance, CORN might actually fit the ecological grouping (of plants) as well as a symbiotic relationship (with man and cattle)? If the XML can do that, I think it's an outstanding thought. Anyone know?

As far as territories being part of bonuses that do not completely overlap, I'm quite certain the XML can do that. For example, in the American Civil War map, the states are collected into bonus groups named for six generals (three northern, three southern) plus a group of neutral states earning no bonus. Independent of this, certain states are marked as having key northern cities, key southern cities or the two capitals. Holding these states also earns a bonus. Notably the key northern cities are in two states under one general, one under another, and one in a neutral state. You can earn that bonus by holding those states without holding all of any general's states.

One more point to ponder: if MrBenn and sailorseal have been confused about your map, maybe the name "Circle of Life" is a problem. Perhaps "Ecology", or better yet, "Biosphere", would get the idea across better.

[Woodruff]

But I very much DO like this image you have, and I think I can really take the concept you've got here and run with it a bit. Thank you very much for that.

Happy to help. Keep in mind, though, that image is not mine and there is a copyright on it. Still, I did think it would be inspiring.

Of course...I just meant I would use it as a starting idea sort of thing, not that I would use the actual image itself. <smile>

Oh wait, maybe I just figured out what you did mean...so for instance, a particular "territory" might actually be associated with more than one potential bonus (can the XML do that?)...so for instance, CORN might actually fit the ecological grouping (of plants) as well as a symbiotic relationship (with man and cattle)? If the XML can do that, I think it's an outstanding thought. Anyone know?

As far as territories being part of bonuses that do not completely overlap, I'm quite certain the XML can do that. For example, in the American Civil War map, the states are collected into bonus groups named for six generals (three northern, three southern) plus a group of neutral states earning no bonus. Independent of this, certain states are marked as having key northern cities, key southern cities or the two capitals. Holding these states also earns a bonus. Notably the key northern cities are in two states under one general, one under another, and one in a neutral state. You can earn that bonus by holding those states without holding all of any general's states.

Ah yes, that's right...I had forgotten that aspect of the American Civil War map...outstanding news.

One more point to ponder: if MrBenn and sailorseal have been confused about your map, maybe the name "Circle of Life" is a problem. Perhaps "Ecology", or better yet, "Biosphere", would get the idea across better.

Good point. I'm certainly not married to the name CIRCLE OF LIFE...honestly, I just picked it because I wanted a circular map, so it sort of linked. <laughing>

Which actually brings up an aspect of my idea that I'm struggling with a bit...and it's probably because my biology background simply isn't that strong. I listed ten groupings in my initial post here, though that was mostly just stream-of-consciousness put to paper (and yeti_c helped me think that through a bit better in his post). It doesn't quite marry up to what actually happens (for instance, in reality, trees and grasses would be in the same grouping, most likely). So if you have any input on how my groupings could perhaps be organized to fit more realistically, I'm all ears. I don't feel necessarily required to make it ultra-realistic, but I get the impression that some here might...strongly prefer it. <smile>

[john9blue]

I have been thinking about ways to merge this with Food Chain. Here's the problem: in the ocean, organisms are mostly intermixed and their dietary range is much larger. On land, each organism has more distinct prey and predators. So while it's possible in the water to simply assign organisms trophic levels, doing so on land might result in a loss of realism.

However, I don't really know as much about land based ecosystems, and we might be able to get away with using such a loose structure. If that's the case then we may be able to do the following:

- 1 territory per organism
- Assign a trophic level (1-4) to each organism
- Put each organism in an ecosystem (marine, freshwater, grassland, forest, desert, tundra)
- Allow certain organisms to attack multiple ecosystems (e.g. alligator belongs on the border between forest and freshwater)
- Organisms attack all other organisms in their ecosystem(s) on the next lowest trophic level
- Bonuses for holding a complete food chain (organisms attacking one another 4-1) or a complete ecosystem

Here's a rough example:



Obviously this needs work, but it's generally what I was thinking of.

[Woodruff]

I have been thinking about ways to merge this with Food Chain. Here's the problem: in the ocean, organisms are mostly intermixed and their dietary range is much larger. On land, each organism has more distinct prey and predators. So while it's possible in the water to simply assign organisms trophic levels, doing so on land might result in a loss of realism.

However, I don't really know as much about land based ecosystems, and we might be able to get away with using such a loose structure. If that's the case then we may be able to do the following:

- 1 territory per organism
- Assign a trophic level (1-4) to each organism
- Put each organism in an ecosystem (marine, freshwater, grassland, forest, desert, tundra)
- Allow certain organisms to attack multiple ecosystems (e.g. alligator belongs on the border between forest and freshwater)
- Organisms attack all other organisms in their ecosystem(s) on the next lowest trophic level
- Bonuses for holding a complete food chain (organisms attacking one another 4-1) or a complete ecosystem

Here's a rough example:



Obviously this needs work, but it's generally what I was thinking of.

I like the way you've laid this out, and I agree with the logic you've used.

However, I see one major problem, though it may just be a problem for ME. I want another circular map! <laughing>

[ender516]

I have been thinking about ways to merge this with Food Chain. Here's the problem: in the ocean, organisms are mostly intermixed and their dietary range is much larger. On land, each organism has more distinct prey and predators. So while it's possible in the water to simply assign organisms trophic levels, doing so on land might result in a loss of realism.

However, I don't really know as much about land based ecosystems, and we might be able to get away with using such a loose structure. If that's the case then we may be able to do the following:

- 1 territory per organism
- Assign a trophic level (1-4) to each organism
- Put each organism in an ecosystem (marine, freshwater, grassland, forest, desert, tundra)
- Allow certain organisms to attack multiple ecosystems (e.g. alligator belongs on the border between forest and freshwater)
- Organisms attack all other organisms in their ecosystem(s) on the next lowest trophic level
- Bonuses for holding a complete food chain (organisms attacking one another 4-1) or a complete ecosystem

Here's a rough example:



Obviously this needs work, but it's generally what I was thinking of.

I like the way you've laid this out, and I agree with the logic you've used.

However, I see one major problem, though it may just be a problem for ME. I want another circular map! <laughing>

I concur completely, Woodruff. This is very much what I was picturing, john9blue.

By "circular map", in this context, I presume you mean a map where the highest trophic level would be attacked by the lowest (or some other entity not yet described) thereby closing the loop. In graph theoretical terms, if the territories are vertices, and the possible attacks are directed links, then your preferred map has cycles. The DECOMPOSITION feature of the map might do this, but it looks backwards to me right now. If the "Trophic Levels" legend is telling me that Level one attacks Level 2, which attacks Level 3, which attacks Level 4, then I read that as large carnivores attack small carnivores, which attack herbivores, which attack plants. If we put soil and its microorganisms in the game as the DECOMPOSITION territory, then plants attack it and it attacks the large carnivores, closing the cycle. But that would be DECOMPOSITION attacking level 1 and being attacked by level 4, the opposite of what is shown.
Comments, john9blue?

Just to throw a little more detail in, here is a diagram of an Arctic food web that I found on Wikipedia when reading about trophic levels. Keep in mind that food webs show the flow of energy, so the arrows are opposite to what we think of as attacks, and the closing of the cycle is not shown either.

Click image to enlarge.

Another element that could close the cycle along with DECOMPOSITION could be DISEASE, and either or both could be set up to attack all trophic levels. Say, maybe bombardment might be a good gameplay feature in this map. DISEASE (or POLLUTION) could bombard any territory, causing shifts in the balance of an ecosystem. I have a germ of an idea (pardon the pun) for dividing each species into healthy and diseased populations, and having the diseased population able to attack the healthy (transmission within species), but with a negative bonus (immune system kicking in), and possibly the diseased pop attacking along the food chain but in reverse (transmission between species by ingestion). In fact the species might be split three ways, healthy, diseased and polluted. Take that Arctic web with twelve species, throw in man and the blue whale, multiply by 3 and you have 42 territories, a size many folks like. Man might be the only one who can attack POLLUTION... Man I wish I could work this out a bit more, before these ideas get away from me, but I really need to hit the hay.

[Woodruff]

However, I see one major problem, though it may just be a problem for ME. I want another circular map! <laughing>

I concur completely, Woodruff. This is very much what I was picturing, john9blue.

By "circular map", in this context, I presume you mean a map where the highest trophic level would be attacked by the lowest (or some other entity not yet described) thereby closing the loop.

Making a big presumption that "trophic level" would very roughly equate to the "type-groupings" that I sort of set up in the first post, then yes. I essentially saw one of the following groupings as being the one to attack the "top dawgs", as it were:
Death: Dirt, War, Murder, Suicide, ???
By-products: Oil, Coal, Tar, Shale, Gems, ???

I hadn't yet figured out the most logical way to do that, but yes you have the basic idea of it.

[john9blue]

Oh durrr, I'm stupid. 4 attacks 3 etc., not the other way around. Hey, it was a quick draft.

[Woodruff]

Hey guys, I just wanted to let everyone know that I'm in the process of moving from Nevada to Nebraska, so I can't really participate here as much as I'd like (and can't actually do any work on my map at all). So please don't think I'm ignoring this...that isn't the case.